The Dean Posted December 14, 2008 Posted December 14, 2008 So let me get this straight- it was a bad play call because the coach should have KNOWN that JP would get sacked, fumble, let a fumble go the other way for the game winning touchdown? In the context of the game, it was a fine play call. But to say that the coach's should have been certain of the extent to which Losman screwed that pooch is an intolerable displacement of blame! Which one is it folks? Make the play calls within your QB's complete lack of capability? Or call to win the game? Some people can't be satisfied, I swear! No, it was a bad call because the running game was working like a top. It is what you work for, all game (wearing down the defensive line, so that every run goes for 4+ yards late in the game)...and then you decide to not cash the check with the game on the line. There is no upside to letting JP roll out...that is, nothing that wasn't likely to be accomplished by simply sticking to the run (with your backs) on 2nd and five. The Bills did not need a BIG PLAY, in fact a big play would have worked against them, at that point. They needed to GRIND out first downs. So, it's a bad call no matter who the QB is. Factor in JP's amazing fumbling streak, when he has been hit recently, and it turns into one of the stupidest calls I have ever seen. You are blasting away at about 5-yards a rush. Why do ANYTHING else? To have some fun? To introduce drama? To blow the game, apparently.
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 14, 2008 Posted December 14, 2008 The only thing wrong with that play call was that it reflected confidence in Losman. The staff has to know they have a guy back there who's a sack and TO machine, and call plays in light of that reality. What? This is a pro-team. You have to have confidence in everybody. One has to empower every player. What is wrong with that. Why hide your problems? That is the only way to truly get better. Better with a purpose.
KD in CA Posted December 14, 2008 Posted December 14, 2008 So let me get this straight- it was a bad play call because the coach should have KNOWN that JP would get sacked, fumble, let a fumble go the other way for the game winning touchdown? YES! Question: Did you actually watch the game? Cause if you did, you would know that JP was AWFUL in this game. He was throwing 3 feet high to wide open guys ten yards away from him. Putting the ball in his hands unnecessarily with the game on the line was a BAD, BAD call. In the context of the game, it was a fine play call. But to say that the coach's should have been certain of the extent to which Losman screwed that pooch is an intolerable displacement of blame! If you had a top flight QB and/or a terrible running game? Maybe. But you have a RB who is KILLING a tired defense for more than six yards per carry and you have a completely inept QB. Understanding your personnel is part of the 'context of the game'.
cåblelady Posted December 14, 2008 Posted December 14, 2008 It is absolutely the coach's fault. They have to know they have one of the mentally slowest QBs to ever play the game in there. JPL is as close to clinical retardation as you can get. To call any play that forced him to actually think rests on this coaching staff and their inability to evaluate their own players strengths, weaknesses, and mental capabilities. Blaming this on Losman is like yelling insults to the short bud kids - they can't help it and neither can JP.
The Big Cat Posted December 14, 2008 Posted December 14, 2008 No, it was a bad call because the running game was working like a top. It is what you work for, all game (wearing down the defensive line, so that every run goes for 4+ yards late in the game)...and then you decide to not cash the check with the game on the line. There is no upside to letting JP roll out...that is, nothing that wasn't likely to be accomplished by simply sticking to the run (with your backs) on 2nd and five. The Bills did not need a BIG PLAY, in fact a big play would have worked against them, at that point. They needed to GRIND out first downs. So, it's a bad call no matter who the QB is. Factor in JP's amazing fumbling streak, when he has been hit recently, and it turns into one of the stupidest calls I have ever seen. You are blasting away at about 5-yards a rush. Why do ANYTHING else? To have some fun? To introduce drama? To blow the game, apparently. Honestly, we'll have to agree to disagree. What's the worst that happens on a run? We fumble and it gets returned for a TD. What's the worst that could happen on a pass? We fumble/throw a pick and it gets returned for a TD. What's the next worst thing that could happen on a run? We get stuffed. 3rd and 5 What's the next worst thing to happen on a pass? Sack, loss of yards, clock still running. 3rd and 10 What's LIKELY to happen on a run? 2-4 yard carry. The play came after a TO, the Jets had a chance to catch their breath. I doubt ML would have trucked another one out. 3rd and 3 or 3rd and 1 What's LIKELY to happen on a pass? Incomplete pass- 3rd and 5. Completion: 1st Down What's the BEST that could happen on a run? We break it for a 10+ yard gain. What's the BEST that could happen on a pass? We break it for a 20+ yard gain.
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 14, 2008 Posted December 14, 2008 Are you saying that Dick threw his other 52 players and staff under the bus so that he could guarantee ruin on Losman's career? No. He empowered JPL to make a play and LEAD. JPL let his 52 players down. Dick had every ounce of confidence that he would makle the play and LEAD... Be a hero. I know if I was a QB, I would want to do it myself... Throw the ball... Maybe run it myself from THE GET GO... LEAD... Who wants to hand off? People JPL is leaving after this year. Dick was trying to help JPL... Too bad JPL hurt himself.
The Big Cat Posted December 14, 2008 Posted December 14, 2008 YES! Question: Did you actually watch the game? Cause if you did, you would know that JP was AWFUL in this game. He was throwing 3 feet high to wide open guys ten yards away from him. Putting the ball in his hands unnecessarily with the game on the line was a BAD, BAD call. If you had a top flight QB and/or a terrible running game? Maybe. But you have a RB who is KILLING a tired defense for more than six yards per carry and you have a completely inept QB. Understanding your personnel is part of the 'context of the game'. I did watch the game. And JP looked horrible up UNTIL the drive prior to the breakdown.
Dan Posted December 14, 2008 Posted December 14, 2008 Honestly, we'll have to agree to disagree. What's the worst that happens on a run? We fumble and it gets returned for a TD. What's the worst that could happen on a pass? We fumble/throw a pick and it gets returned for a TD. What's the next worst thing that could happen on a run? We get stuffed. 3rd and 5 What's the next worst thing to happen on a pass? Sack, loss of yards, clock still running. 3rd and 10 What's LIKELY to happen on a run? 2-4 yard carry. The play came after a TO, the Jets had a chance to catch their breath. I doubt ML would have trucked another one out. 3rd and 3 or 3rd and 1 What's LIKELY to happen on a pass? Incomplete pass- 3rd and 5. Completion: 1st Down What's the BEST that could happen on a run? We break it for a 10+ yard gain. What's the BEST that could happen on a pass? We break it for a 20+ yard gain. But you don't want a big pass play there. In fact, that's the last thing you need. You just need to run time off the clock and get a first down. Running and only getting 3 yards would have been great there. 3rd and 2 is a great down to have with 2 minutes left. One more short run and that game is all but over.
NavarreFL_Bills_Fan Posted December 14, 2008 Posted December 14, 2008 I have zero problems with the call, JayPee just have to throw it away if there is nothing there. But JayPee can't manage that, now, would he? or just fall down an experienced QB would've done that...ohh wait
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 14, 2008 Posted December 14, 2008 Seems like that is what he's saying, which has to be total nonsense. Does anyone really think DJ was thinking of JP's future, on that call? Seriously? Yes! I want to build great leaders... Even if they eventually do not lead for me. You think that is what DJ is all about? No? Call DJ and I a maroon, naive, or whatever all you want. That is how you separate the wheat from the chaff.
The Dean Posted December 14, 2008 Posted December 14, 2008 Honestly, we'll have to agree to disagree. What's the worst that happens on a run? We fumble and it gets returned for a TD. What's the worst that could happen on a pass? We fumble/throw a pick and it gets returned for a TD. What's the next worst thing that could happen on a run? We get stuffed. 3rd and 5 What's the next worst thing to happen on a pass? Sack, loss of yards, clock still running. 3rd and 10 What's LIKELY to happen on a run? 2-4 yard carry. The play came after a TO, the Jets had a chance to catch their breath. I doubt ML would have trucked another one out. 3rd and 3 or 3rd and 1 What's LIKELY to happen on a pass? Incomplete pass- 3rd and 5. Completion: 1st Down What's the BEST that could happen on a run? We break it for a 10+ yard gain. What's the BEST that could happen on a pass? We break it for a 20+ yard gain. You pay the RB to run the ball, not the QB...at least on this team. The o-line had softened up the middle of the line. How does a roll-out work take advantage of that? Who is more likely to fumble if hit, Marshawn or JP? Only an idiot doesn't take into consideration who is playing well and who isn't. Who has sure hands and who doesn't. What is to be gained, and what isn't. I can't see Belicheat sending Brady on that play, if they were tearing up the middle of the line on rushing plays. What do you think Dungy would do if Addai was tearing it up inside...send Peyton on a rollout? And those guys hold on to the ball. I'm not suggesting that JP is blameless here. But, it should have never been an issue. RUN THE BALL, when you are ahead and trying to run out the clock...especially when you are getting 4+ yards a pop on every run.
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 14, 2008 Posted December 14, 2008 It was a bad play because there was no need to pass when the Jets could not stop the run. That too complex for you? Who said JPL actually had to pass? It was a freaking roll-out... There is wiggle room there. One should have the awareness that the play may have gone south from the get go... Tuck the ball, protect it and dig it out.
The Big Cat Posted December 14, 2008 Posted December 14, 2008 But you don't want a big pass play there. In fact, that's the last thing you need. You just need to run time off the clock and get a first down. Running and only getting 3 yards would have been great there. 3rd and 2 is a great down to have with 2 minutes left. One more short run and that game is all but over. My point was- unless you plan for the ABSOLUTE worst case scenario, the play call has considerably more upside. Just executing the play alone (hitting Fine rolling out) and we pick up 12 yards. That's not a huge gain, like you mention, but instead puts us at the 39, one first down from NYJ territory. I just watched the play a couple times in slow mo. Low and behold- just like every other costly sack turned fumble- the guy who made the hit came right off Jason Ole Peters. Just sayin'.
The Dean Posted December 14, 2008 Posted December 14, 2008 Who said JPL actually had to pass? It was a freaking roll-out... There is wiggle room there. One should have the awareness that the play may have gone south from the get go... Tuck the ball, protect it and dig it out. Or hand it to the sure handed RB, who has bashed through the middle of the line for repeated 4+ yard gains. Rolling out works against the momentum they had with the offensive line driving the D-line backward.
cåblelady Posted December 14, 2008 Posted December 14, 2008 Or hand it to the sure handed RB, who has bashed through the middle of the line for repeated 4+ yard gains. Stop making sense, -b. You disappoint me.
The Dean Posted December 14, 2008 Posted December 14, 2008 My point was- unless you plan for the ABSOLUTE worst case scenario, the play call has considerably more upside. What upside? The best possible scenario is the Bills get a 1st down on 3rd and short, and keep the clock moving. There was simply NO upside to the play.
The Big Cat Posted December 14, 2008 Posted December 14, 2008 Or hand it to the sure handed RB, who has bashed through the middle of the line for repeated 4+ yard gains. Rolling out works against the momentum they had with the offensive line driving the D-line backward. Well, where was this drive on that play then? If we were truly man-handling the DLine then they don't get that penetration. If they are in fact gasping for air, like you say, then what does it for our OL? What does it say for Peters that it was a DB- a guy half his size- that blew right passed him, untouched en route to JP? Peters couldn't even be bothered to chip the guy. Are you suggesting the OL just DECIDED to stop dominating on that play? Or that their DLine suddenly looked tight again because we didn't hand it to Marshawn?
The Dean Posted December 14, 2008 Posted December 14, 2008 Well, where was this drive on that play then? If we were truly man-handling the DLine then they don't get that penetration. If they are in fact gasping for air, like you say, then what does it for our OL? What does it say for Peters that it was a DB- a guy half his size- that blew right passed him, untouched en route to JP? Peters couldn't even be bothered to chip the guy. Are you suggesting the OL just DECIDED to stop dominating on that play? Or that their DLine suddenly looked tight again because we didn't hand it to Marshawn? Why should the DB even be in the equation? You are blasting away at the D-LINE. That's the unit you have worn down. A rollout simply gives the LBs and DBs a chance to make a play. They should be irrelevant in that drive. Why ask the O-Line to rollout, when simply driving forward is working perfectly well. That's what you are looking for, at this stage in the game. They looked a gift horse in the mouth.
thewildrabbit Posted December 14, 2008 Posted December 14, 2008 You pay the RB to run the ball, not the QB...at least on this team. The o-line had softened up the middle of the line. How does a roll-out work take advantage of that? Who is more likely to fumble if hit, Marshawn or JP? Only an idiot doesn't take into consideration who is playing well and who isn't. Who has sure hands and who doesn't. What is to be gained, and what isn't. I can't see Belicheat sending Brady on that play, if they were tearing up the middle of the line on rushing plays. What do you think Dungy would do if Addai was tearing it up inside...send Peyton on a rollout? And those guys hold on to the ball. I'm not suggesting that JP is blameless here. But, it should have never been an issue. RUN THE BALL, when you are ahead and trying to run out the clock...especially when you are getting 4+ yards a pop on every run. have to totally agree Anything OTHER then another run is a stupid play call...when all you need to do is run out the clock ...a roll out pass play is monumentally stupid
The Big Cat Posted December 14, 2008 Posted December 14, 2008 Why should the DB even be in the equation? You are blasting away at the D-LINE. That's the unit you have worn down. A rollout simply gives the LBs and DBs a chance to make a play. They should be irrelevant in that drive. Why ask the O-Line to rollout, when simply driving forward is working perfectly well. That's what you are looking for, at this stage in the game. They looked a gift horse in the mouth. You need to rewatch the play. Run or pass, Elam would have been in the backfield for the stop. He runs RIGHT BY Peters.
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