The Dean Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Do they get national healthcare in Japan? For the most part, yes. Personal insurance is also available. Most advanced western countries supply some sort of basic health care to their citizens. This is just one of the areas where the US is way behind the rest of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 For the most part, yes. Personal insurance is also available. Most advanced western countries supply some sort of basic health care to their citizens. This is just one of the areas where the US is way behind the rest of the world. And companies like Wal-Mart in Tennessee probably get tax breaks to locate therer and then send their employees to get welfare in order to "bridge the gap" because of the low wages they offer. WTF is wrong with us in this country... Yet, we blame the "lazy worker" who can't pull themselves up by the boot straps... If it was not so sad, I would laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Again... If you can actually admit to owning an American car in the last 10 years... I may agree with you. I still can't get past your past pre-consisting notions... This from a guy who normally preaches tolerance... Take a walk outside the law offices and yuppydom and actually sit by the side of a road and count how many domestic cars vs. others are on the road. Was that last sentence me being generalizing and intolerant? Are you really that dense? (Yes, I know you are.) I bought my first Japanese car in 1995--a 5 year old Honda. This, after seeing my father struggle with a lifetime of the "buy America" thing that I did for a while too. Since then--for 13 years--my wife and I have only bought Japanese cars. Why? Because I have never had a problem. Your challenge in this and another thread: "Go out and buy American because" I need a change and American cars are better than they used to be falls on deaf ears. If I have had no problems and am happy, why would I change? Just for change's sake? What a moronic consumer I'd be to do that. Toyota and Honda got me loyal to their brands by making GREAT cars. GM and Ford lost my loyalty--that was ingrained in me--by making sh------- cars. What the hell is my incentive to return to the American brands? I've never had a problem with the Japanese cars. Ever. Every consumer and objective review of cars ranks them at the top. (Ford has improved too but again, why would I take the chance?) As to what is on the road, I don't understand your point. I see lots of cars on the roads of many makes and models. I can't stop people from buying VWs that are notoriously unreliable. And I can't stop suburban moms from buying 4 wheel drive monster trucks they don't need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 What the hell is my incentive to return to the American brands? Maybe give your fellow Americans another crack at redemption? Why, would it kill you to economically support American manufacturing and give them another crack? Ya... I know it sounds corny and patriotic... I did try after only buying imports for spell up and into the late 1990's... And I was pleasantly surprised. Sorry... I must be more adventureous... It is only a freaking machine... Oh... And please... Whatever you do, I am in no way saying you should get out of your comfort zone! Stick to the tried and true! I am just busting your hump... No offense JA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 The funny thing is, while I don't necessarily endorse this idea, it would probably be more effective for the gov't to simply give anyone buying an American car $10,000 (for example...maybe more), making them a better value for the consumer, than to give the $$ directly to the automaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 The funny thing is, while I don't necessarily endorse this idea, it would probably be more effective for the gov't to simply give anyone buying an American car $10,000 (for example...maybe more), making them a better value for the consumer, than to give the $$ directly to the automaker. Dealers will move (or used to on a price of a car)... In 2006 I walked in and bought a 45k (sticker price) Chrysler Pacifica Limited AWD for 31k... And got free oil changes for life... No BS, I got their stock number off the internet... Walked in and said what I wanted and how much I want to pay... When do I sign the check.. They bit on it... I should have said 30k... I figured 31k was fair enough since Edmunds was saying around 36K. The only thing it doesn't have is engine block heater (45 bucks)... Well, it is not like I live in North Dakota or Manitoba... First time I ever bought a car with cash... It really makes buying a vehicle fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Dealers will move (or used to on a price of a car)... In 2006 I walked in and bought a 45k (sticker price) Chrysler Pacifica Limited AWD for 31k... And got free oil changes for life... No BS, I got their stock number off the internet... Walked in and said what I wanted and how much I want to pay... When do I sign the check.. They bit on it... I should have said 30k... I figured 31k was fair enough since Edmunds was saying around 36K. The only thing it doesn't have is engine block heater (45 bucks)... Well, it is not like I live in North Dakota or Manitoba... First time I ever bought a car with cash... It really makes buying a vehicle fun! It would have to be part of the agreement, that the automaker doesn't allow markups by the dealer. In fact, the gov't could supply a list of the cost of each car, and what the consumer should pay, to prevent rip-offs. (Again...I am not suggesting that this actually be the solution.) As for your buying experience, let me share my Dad's. First of all, my Dad pays cash for his cars. So, he goes to a few dealers and finds a car he likes, tells them they get only one shot at selling him the car ("I don't negotiate, give me your best price. I will look at several different dealers and buy the car I want that has the best price/value.") Then he goes to the dealer with the car he likes best, has a check written out (without the dealer name) for whatever he feels he should pay ($8,000 less than what they quoted him, maybe $10,000 less), and just says," Take it, or I'll bring it down the street." Now, that was a good idea before the Internet made it so easy to find out what a good deal really is...but, he doesn't care about all that. He seems to get his cars for less than anyone else I know of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 It would have to be part of the agreement, that the automaker doesn't allow markups by the dealer. In fact, the gov't could supply a list of the cost of each car, and what the consumer should pay, to prevent rip-offs. (Again...I am not suggesting that this actually be the solution.) As for your buying experience, let me share my Dad's. First of all, my Dad pays cash for his cars. So, he goes to a few dealers and finds a car he likes, tells them they get only one shot at selling him the car ("I don't negotiate, give me your best price. I will look at several different dealers and buy the car I want that has the best price/value.") Then he goes to the dealer with the car he likes best, has a check written out (without the dealer name) for whatever he feels he should pay ($8,000 less than what they quoted him, maybe $10,000 less), and just says," Take it, or I'll bring it down the street." Now, that was a good idea before the Internet made it so easy to find out what a good deal really is...but, he doesn't care about all that. He seems to get his cars for less than anyone else I know of. Yep! They probably make up 3 fold for what they took on the chin on the poor dude that shows up wit his trade and needing a loan. I was alway told what you are saying... And I didn't believe it... The way they were squealing I almost felt bad... I said: "I will give you a clean deal right now... Totally clean"... It was a Friday night, I can't believe they took my personal check... I guess the allure was too great... I was a nevous wreck inside... I never wrote a check for over 2 grand, let alone 31k! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 The funny thing is, while I don't necessarily endorse this idea, it would probably be more effective for the gov't to simply give anyone buying an American car $10,000 (for example...maybe more), making them a better value for the consumer, than to give the $$ directly to the automaker. Will that offer hold if the car is manufactured in Canada or Mexico? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Coli Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 I tried to find the actual number, but how much money are the foreign car companies saving by assembling their cars on US soil and getting around the import tariffs ? How much of this money is going to the American auto worker in these foreign car plants on US soil? It seems to me that we shouldn't be blasting and begrudging the American workers who happen to have been lucky enough to work in a union shop under a contract agreed to at the bargaining table. Instead we should be blasting the foreign auto makers for paying our American workers wages that are inferior to the industry standard here in the US. Why is Toyota et al allowed to steal from the American auto workers they employ? Why are they allowed to offer an inferior benefit package? Where is the outrage that a set of foreign auto makers are making money off the backs of the American factory worker, right under our noses here on US soil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Are you really that dense? (Yes, I know you are.) I bought my first Japanese car in 1995--a 5 year old Honda. This, after seeing my father struggle with a lifetime of the "buy America" thing that I did for a while too. Since then--for 13 years--my wife and I have only bought Japanese cars. Why? Because I have never had a problem. Seems to be the question of the week. Of course the answer is, yes American cars sucked in the '70s & '80s. I love how the defenders then claim that the engines lasted forever. Too bad the rest of the car fell apart before 70K miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted December 15, 2008 Author Share Posted December 15, 2008 I tried to find the actual number, but how much money are the foreign car companies saving by assembling their cars on US soil and getting around the import tariffs ? How much of this money is going to the American auto worker in these foreign car plants on US soil? It seems to me that we shouldn't be blasting and begrudging the American workers who happen to have been lucky enough to work in a union shop under a contract agreed to at the bargaining table. Instead we should be blasting the foreign auto makers for paying our American workers wages that are inferior to the industry standard here in the US. Why is Toyota et al allowed to steal from the American auto workers they employ? Why are they allowed to offer an inferior benefit package? Where is the outrage that a set of foreign auto makers are making money off the backs of the American factory worker, right under our noses here on US soil? I worked in auto...1978 - 1991. Foreign makers makers manufacturing in the U.S. paid U.S. taxes on profits, but their home nations exempted them from home country taxation. Contrast Ford and GM's situation. Ford of Germany, GM's German Opel division are large, successful, long-standing operations. They paid taxes to whatever European company they operated in. Then, our Federal government also taxed them on those profits. Double taxation for the U.S. companies... In the early '80's, Toyota built a pick-up truck bed plant in Van Nuys, CA. They would import their small P-U sans bed, to get around the so-called "Chicken Law" tariffs (old trade battle - foreign nations put a tariff on US poultry, US retaliated with a tariff on imported trucks). The Toyota cab-chassis skirted the law; the bed was installed after arriving at US ports - simple task. That law still exists - Daimler-Chrysler produces their Sprinter delivery vehicle in Europe. Then they disassemble much of it and ship it to one of the Southern US states where it is re-assembled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acantha Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 I tried to find the actual number, but how much money are the foreign car companies saving by assembling their cars on US soil and getting around the import tariffs ? How much of this money is going to the American auto worker in these foreign car plants on US soil? It seems to me that we shouldn't be blasting and begrudging the American workers who happen to have been lucky enough to work in a union shop under a contract agreed to at the bargaining table. Instead we should be blasting the foreign auto makers for paying our American workers wages that are inferior to the industry standard here in the US. Why is Toyota et al allowed to steal from the American auto workers they employ? Why are they allowed to offer an inferior benefit package? Where is the outrage that a set of foreign auto makers are making money off the backs of the American factory worker, right under our noses here on US soil? So what you're saying is, the foreign companies are finding ways to do things differently than the American companies, are NOT going out of business, and we should hate them for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in San Diego Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Little 3's problem isn't output per worker, it's output per input cost. And a big component of the excess costs are a) union wages and b) pension obligations. Let em' fail and deal with those and other things like creditors from bankuptcy court ... that's when you'd really see changes that would bring their costs inline with competitive realities. We shouldn't be throwing good money after bad when our own federal deficit is spiralling out of control and most people outside of Little 3 are also hurting financially. Handouts for little 3 now just funnels more money to the source of the problem, delays proper resolution and costs a lot more money. The pensions are funded and invested as the worker goes along, not after the fact, so pensions are not a drag on the current company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in San Diego Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 National health plan would make American companies more competitive. I have a recent personal bugaboo with GM sales staff. I was at a GM Dealer in La Mesa on Sunday night, it was drizzling a little bit outside and a little chilly. I was walking around the lot looking at utility trucks, would one fat lazy salesman come out in the drizzle and talk to me? No they all waited for me to come inside, which I didn't do, I just drove away with them looking out the window at me. What a bunch of smucks, as if I'm going to buy a truck from those smucks who wouldn't step outside and talk with me and then invite me inside to talk about buying a truck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Seems to be the question of the week. Of course the answer is, yes American cars sucked in the '70s & '80s. I love how the defenders then claim that the engines lasted forever. Too bad the rest of the car fell apart before 70K miles. They were all rust buckets! Even the vaunted Jap products before Zn process... Our family owned a '76 Toyota Celica, '77 Land Cruiser, and a 1981 Mazada GLC... The Land Cruiser (old FJ40 type... Jeep CJ was the counterpart... Not the 1980's Land Crusier yuppy wagon) was a little more durable bodywise, but no worse than a rust bucket CJ... They would come off the line with rust! And for what those vintage vehicles (FJ40) fetch today, I REALLY WISH MY FAMILY HUNG ONTO IT! Even in a state of total rust suckatude... Again, they were all rust buckets many worse than thier American counterpart... Now, the Celica literally fell apart around the engine in under 10 years and the GLC driver's floor board rotted right out in the same time... We literally took an old stop sign and reconstructed the floor board! The engine on the GLC was great though... My father would always b*tch to my mother (mother's car) to check the oil... She never did... One time she was in the Vix parking lot (many years later than the 1981 model date) on French Road and I think she heard my father's voice... She didn't know how to check the oil (she always told my father she did... You argue with him, you think I am a chucklehead? ), so she had a guy that was going into the store check it... He checked it and said: "Lady there is NO oil in this engine!" I think she said she went and got and added about 4 qts of oil! Way to go Ma! Keep Dad off your back! Anyway... I always wondered if people tend to drive foreign vs. domestic cars harder or lighter?... I wonder if there is a study out there? Also, mix that in with other socio-economic factors with regards to how one lives, works, and travels... ?? Oh... One of the worst cars we owned... Later in the 1980's we had a 1975 Ford Granada... Phuck you Ricado Montebahn! It was nothing like a Mercedes! It was the vehicle we would take up to Canada when we went to the African Lion Safari! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 So what you're saying is, the foreign companies are finding ways to do things differently than the American companies, are NOT going out of business, and we should hate them for it? Yes. Because they are defecting from the norm and skirting the issue with loop-holes. Though, in America the one that can do this and get in first with the scheme usually ends up winning. Who said cheaters never prosper? They were wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acantha Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Yes. Because they are defecting from the norm and skirting the issue with loop-holes. Though, in America the one that can do this and get in first with the scheme usually ends up winning. Who said cheaters never prosper? They were wrong. How is it cheating? Instead of paying fees to import, they are giving americans jobs that they obviously need (the jobs are being filled, yes?). Isn't that the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 The pensions are funded and invested as the worker goes along, not after the fact, so pensions are not a drag on the current company. That is what I thought. Somebody must be raiding them... Or slide 31 with regards to other pensioners: Banks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Take a walk outside the law offices and yuppydom and actually sit by the side of a road and count how many domestic cars vs. others are on the road. : I've been doing this lately on my drive to work on our jam packed freeways here in soCal. I come up with about 1:20 and they all look like crap compared to their counterparts. And the ones I've gotten through rental agencies ( I think that were most of these crap cars end up) drive like tin cans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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