K-9 Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 After reading the diatribes against organized labor, I'd be interested to know what the expert opinions are on whether organized labor unions have ever contributed anything positive to our society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Look at their history from the late 1880's to the early 1900's and you'll see why labor unions were formed and what they accomplished. If the fat cat business owners gave a about their employees then unions never would have been necessary but the fat cats were big time A-holes and it's only legislation that keeps them from being A-holes now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingon Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 In the late 1800's and early 1900's they were necessary. However, today they merely serve to make American-made goods uncompetitive. They slowly choke their companies to death (big 3), then get pissed off when they have to make concessions. Meanwhile, foreign auto workers are paid with incentive bonuses (unions are against performance based pay). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted December 13, 2008 Author Share Posted December 13, 2008 In the late 1800's and early 1900's they were necessary. However, today they merely serve to make American-made goods uncompetitive. They slowly choke their companies to death (big 3), then get pissed off when they have to make concessions. Meanwhile, foreign auto workers are paid with incentive bonuses (unions are against performance based pay). Why were they necessary in the late 1800s and early 1900s and might they be necessary for the same reasons in the third world nations that currently suppress them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingon Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Why were they necessary in the late 1800s and early 1900s and might they be necessary for the same reasons in the third world nations that currently suppress them? They were necessary because people were working 16 hour days 364 days a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted December 13, 2008 Author Share Posted December 13, 2008 They were necessary because people were working 16 hour days 364 days a year. My question was more rhetorical in nature but I'm glad you list an unfair working condition as one of the many reasons they were necessary. What about the second part of my question? Might organized labor be necessary in the many areas of the world today that suppress it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in Anchorage Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 My question was more rhetorical in nature but I'm glad you list an unfair working condition as one of the many reasons they were necessary. What about the second part of my question? Might organized labor be necessary in the many areas of the world today that suppress it? What are you getting at? Unions in Communist China? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted December 13, 2008 Author Share Posted December 13, 2008 What are you getting at? Unions in Communist China? Not getting at anything. Just asking a simple question. Have labor unions contributed to the good of society in the past and can many societies today still benefit from them.? You'll never see unions in China. The government has stifled, through ANY means necessary, including murder and incarceration anyone linked to organizing a labor movement. And that's just how our great patriotic American companies like it there. Anything to protect that 25 cent an our labor cost. But I digress. What about other areas of the world? Like S. America and other parts of Asia where many people have been murdered on mere RUMOR of organizing a labor movement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingon Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Not getting at anything. Just asking a simple question. Have labor unions contributed to the good of society in the past and can many societies today still benefit from them.? You'll never see unions in China. The government has stifled, through ANY means necessary, including murder and incarceration anyone linked to organizing a labor movement. And that's just how our great patriotic American companies like it there. Anything to protect that 25 cent an our labor cost. But I digress. What about other areas of the world? Like S. America and other parts of Asia where many people have been murdered on mere RUMOR of organizing a labor movement? Even if these countries unionized, they would still cost far less than American workers. They know that their entire economies hinge on the fact that they are cheap labor. They don't bite the hand that feeds (US labor unions) Unions are only necessary if there are not basic working rights. I don't think anyone here is a against that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in Anchorage Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Not getting at anything. Just asking a simple question. Have labor unions contributed to the good of society in the past and can many societies today still benefit from them.? You'll never see unions in China. The government has stifled, through ANY means necessary, including murder and incarceration anyone linked to organizing a labor movement. And that's just how our great patriotic American companies like it there. Anything to protect that 25 cent an our labor cost. But I digress. What about other areas of the world? Like S. America and other parts of Asia where many people have been murdered on mere RUMOR of organizing a labor movement? I type about 5 WPM so I can't give the question a adequate answer. Sufficient to say thank God you live in the USA where are biggest problem seems to be who makes $4 dollers a hour more than the other guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted December 13, 2008 Author Share Posted December 13, 2008 Even if these countries unionized, they would still cost far less than American workers. They know that their entire economies hinge on the fact that they are cheap labor. They don't bite the hand that feeds (US labor unions) Unions are only necessary if there are not basic working rights. I don't think anyone here is a against that. What are the basic working rights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingon Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 What are the basic working rights? Just get to the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ieatcrayonz Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 What about the Hispanics? They make below min wage and have horrible working conditions. If anybody needs a union it is them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted December 13, 2008 Author Share Posted December 13, 2008 Just get to the point. My point, as it relates to your response is, if you maintain that unions are necessary in the absence of basic working rights, then those basic rights need to be defined specifically. Thus, my question to you: what ARE basic working rights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in Anchorage Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 What about the Hispanics? They make below min wage and have horrible working conditions. If anybody needs a union it is them. I thought César Chávez took care of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingon Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 My point, as it relates to your response is, if you maintain that unions are necessary in the absence of basic working rights, then those basic rights need to be defined specifically. Thus, my question to you: what ARE basic working rights? You, and everyone here, already knows the loose standard. Simply put, safe working conditions and 8-9 hours a day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manateefan Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 After reading the diatribes against organized labor, I'd be interested to know what the expert opinions are on whether organized labor unions have ever contributed anything positive to our society. Yes, unions did accomplish a lot of good things. They were originally formed to get a living wage, health benefits, pensions, and job protection. And they accomplished that. Unfortunately they got too greedy. And because of that, we lost the steel industry in the US, and now our US auto makers are on the verge of being shut down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Yes, unions did accomplish a lot of good things. They were originally formed to get a living wage, health benefits, pensions, and job protection. And they accomplished that. Unfortunately they got too greedy. And because of that, we lost the steel industry in the US, and now our US auto makers are on the verge of being shut down. I agree with a lot of this. Unions have given the worker all that you listed above. Living wage, health benefits, pensions (this is dwindling fast) and job protection. They give the average worker a voice. Protecting them from harsh or unsafe working conditions. Many companies still have those working conditions. I have seen people that are new U.S. citizens be told that if they do not work the long 16 hour days 6 or 7 days a week (with no overtime) that they will fired and deported. Those kind of conditions can and will have cost people their lives. Constant scare tactics. So is there a need? Yes. I do agree with union greed to a point. Some only blame the unions for rising contract costs, etc. But if you dig a bit deeper what causes the contract to go up is the cost of what is provided. Example: Health care. It has gone up to ridiculous amounts for everyone requiring it. Most contracts that I see have only 3% raises each year for the life of the contract. To the workers I talk to and know, the biggest issues are of course health care, but also items that go along with seniority. And yes, unions have in the past were greedy. Some bargaining for to much, some protecting workers that shouldn't be protected. That nonsense for the most part has changed with new leadership in many unions. Problem is that it has to trickle down to the Local level, making it quite clear that unions are to have high standards. High standards in what they do or produce and high standards in work ethic. If they do not have that, then they are no better than the greedy people we are protecting the workers from. One thing people have to remember is that every contract goes through many levels of negotiations. It's not about killing the company or raping them. Both sides are looking for a fair deal. If management knows that part of a contract will drastically hurt a company then they can easily voice that in arbitration. Believe me, those points are listened to. I know that I will be bashed by the normal union-bashers. And that's fine. They can have their opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ieatcrayonz Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 I thought César Chávez took care of that. Sure, boxers make a lot of money and he was great in his prime, but he is only one guy. I am talking about in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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