Bailout Deal Looks Dead

[pBills]

He's mentioned it here repeatedly, jackass. He just doesn't want to repeat it...and I don't blame him. Search his posts. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out, you just have to be a little bit industrious...

 

 

...oh yeah, you're union. Never mind.

 

 

McDouche what part of me not wanting to search his crap don't you get? He could easily type it... or maybe not.

[elegantelliotoffen]

You have no idea how much your and pbills' approvals mean to me. I'm as happy as a little girl.

 

Ooooooh, ok, that's pretty good, you're getting there!

[KD in CA]

Talk about BS. Companies are not forced to do anything. Get over it.

 

UAW workers also build the cars designed for them. If you want to lat blame for building cars no one wants to buy, blame management and the designers/engineers. Personally I believe a major problem with the Big 3 especially GM is that they have to many lines.

 

Is "get over it" your new line? You sound like my 8 year old niece.

 

Why would any company choose to deal with a labor union if they didn't have to? Of course they are forced to deal with them. Try using common sense for a change.

 

And I complete agree that the designs on GM cars suck. I rented one recently where the button to roll down the windows was below knee level in the center console. Friggin' brilliant. But if you were paying attention, you'd notice that I am against this bailout because they have not demonstrated a workable business model; including mgmt, design, distribution AND labor.

 

But you just want to grab the cash and protect your union giveaways and then just hope it'll all get fixed by cutting a couple car lines and laying off some middle management. Sorry, that's not gonna fix the problem.

[DC Tom]

McDouche what part of me not wanting to search his crap don't you get? He could easily type it... or maybe not.

 

And you could easily look it up. Neither of you wants to give the other the satisfaction. I understand.

 

Just don't think that your childish demand to be spoon-fed information gives you some sort of moral superiority over him.

[pBills]

And you could easily look it up. Neither of you wants to give the other the satisfaction. I understand.

 

Just don't think that your childish demand to be spoon-fed information gives you some sort of moral superiority over him.

 

 

 

It was simple question. What do you do? Anyone should be able to answer that without prompting the other person to look it up or anything like that. What does he do at networking events? Hide business cards and then when people ask him for one he tells them to go find one?

[DC Tom]

It was simple question. What do you do? Anyone should be able to answer that without prompting the other person to look it up or anything like that. What does he do at networking events? Hide business cards and then when people ask him for one he tells them to go find one?

 

Oh, so you're offering the chance to network now? You're just surprised he turned it down? Is that it?

 

A better question, I think, is: why do you even care?

[KD in CA]

Oh dear Fing god. I had said earlier that since these autoworkers have already or will be losing a lot with cuts in the health care and cuts in their pensions and on top of that not receiving bonuses like the foreign autoworkers receive... I believe that it is fair for them to receive the few extra bucks per hour. Let's face it they have come to the table via the UAW and have given up a lot in order to save the companies.

So your answer is "because they used to get even more"?

 

No one gives a rat's ass about 'cuts' or what they have already 'given up'. Cuts from what? From totally outrageous to merely unaffordable and inappropriate? Sorry, that's not justification. And I love the way you wave away $7 billion per year as 'a few extra bucks per hour'. Once again, pay them fair wages, fair benefits and bonuses if that holds some particular interest for you; however you want to structure it is fine, as long as the per hour rate is $45 rather than $75. But because these guys have raped the system in the past and aren't getting away with it anymore is no justification for paying them more than they are worth.

 

Now did you get that? Do you need me to email you a copy? Maybe post on some sort of Anti-Union, Class Warfare site for you?

Please tell me you are not starting to channel eliot_idiot. Up until now at least you haven't been at his completely laughable level.

 

 

Now answer this... Is it worth the $15 billion to attempt to save millions of jobs? Or should the government let the companies die and hope that these people won't remain jobless for to long. Along with the other 1 million + unemployed workers?

Check it out...I'm gonna answer you the very first time you ask. And the answer is:

 

YES!

 

Under the condition that they submit a workable business plan, otherwise you're not saving anything and just wasting the money. And since the CEOs are oh-for-two in doing that when asking for billions of dollars of our money, and since the UAW has show zero interest in agreeing to a fair wage and benefits package, the only way for this to be achieved is to let them enter bankruptcy protection, get out of their existing contracts, and (among many other changes), implement a new, fair wage and benefits scale for all employees that closely mirrors that of the other companies that are successfully running auto businesses in the US.

[pBills]

Is "get over it" your new line? You sound like my 8 year old niece.

 

Why would any company choose to deal with a labor union if they didn't have to? Of course they are forced to deal with them. Try using common sense for a change.

 

And I complete agree that the designs on GM cars suck. I rented one recently where the button to roll down the windows was below knee level in the center console. Friggin' brilliant. But if you were paying attention, you'd notice that I am against this bailout because they have not demonstrated a workable business model; including mgmt, design, distribution AND labor.

 

But you just want to grab the cash and protect your union giveaways and then just hope it'll all get fixed by cutting a couple car lines and laying off some middle management. Sorry, that's not gonna fix the problem.

 

 

I have been using common sense. I have placed blame on everyone for the crisis they are in. You primarily place blame on the union and workers saying that they are greedy. One could easily say that about management as well.

 

The Big 3 had to present a plan this go around, that was a prerequisite of Congress meeting with them again. No UAW person is looking to simply take the cash and run as you say. They want to save their jobs. And I certainly have never said that.

[elegantelliotoffen]

So your answer is "because they used to get even more"?

 

No one gives a rat's ass about 'cuts' or what they have already 'given up'. Cuts from what? From totally outrageous to merely unaffordable and inappropriate? Sorry, that's not justification. And I love the way you wave away $7 billion per year as 'a few extra bucks per hour'. Once again, pay them fair wages, fair benefits and bonuses if that holds some particular interest for you; however you want to structure it is fine, as long as the per hour rate is $45 rather than $75. But because these guys have raped the system in the past and aren't getting away with it anymore is no justification for paying them more than they are worth.

 

 

Please tell me you are not starting to channel eliot_idiot. Up until now at least you haven't been at his completely laughable level.

 

 

 

Check it out...I'm gonna answer you the very first time you ask. And the answer is:

 

YES!

 

Under the condition that they submit a workable business plan, otherwise you're not saving anything and just wasting the money. And since the CEOs are oh-for-two in doing that when asking for billions of dollars of our money, and since the UAW has show zero interest in agreeing to a fair wage and benefits package, the only way for this to be achieved is to let them enter bankruptcy protection, get out of their existing contracts, and (among many other changes), implement a new, fair wage and benefits scale for all employees that closely mirrors that of the other companies that are successfully running auto businesses in the US.

 

He's against class warfare, obviously.

[pBills]

Oh, so you're offering the chance to network now? You're just surprised he turned it down? Is that it?

 

A better question, I think, is: why do you even care?

 

 

 

Umm no. I am using this message board for networking nor would I ever.

[erynthered]

Umm no. I am using this message board for networking nor would I ever.

 

 

What?

[GG]

I have been using common sense. I have placed blame on everyone for the crisis they are in. You primarily place blame on the union and workers saying that they are greedy. One could easily say that about management as well.

 

And this is why you will always be resigned to taking orders from others. Of course you've been placing blame. You've been doing it all along. Of course placing blame is reserved for historians and the books they will write, when they see everything perfectly in hindsight.

 

What needs to be done is a fix to the mess, and that means a bankruptcy filing and fixing the cost structure, production and distribution means of the entire auto industry.

 

But you can go ahead and think that this is only about cutting union workers' wages by $4/hr.

[John Adams]

 

I don't buy three of the same sneakers in a row... Maybe the make... But, never the model...

 

Let's see. I found a low-priced car that has had no problems and I bought 3 in a row...and you pound your head against the wall because of that? So what should I do? Buy cars that might have problems instead of being a brand loyalist to a brand I've never had problems with?

 

And YOU have the nerve to rail about the stupidity of the American consumer?

[pBills]

So your answer is "because they used to get even more"?

 

No one gives a rat's ass about 'cuts' or what they have already 'given up'. Cuts from what? From totally outrageous to merely unaffordable and inappropriate? Sorry, that's not justification. And I love the way you wave away $7 billion per year as 'a few extra bucks per hour'. Once again, pay them fair wages, fair benefits and bonuses if that holds some particular interest for you; however you want to structure it is fine, as long as the per hour rate is $45 rather than $75. But because these guys have raped the system in the past and aren't getting away with it anymore is no justification for paying them more than they are worth.

 

Please tell me you are not starting to channel eliot_idiot. Up until now at least you haven't been at his completely laughable level.

 

Check it out...I'm gonna answer you the very first time you ask. And the answer is:

 

YES!

 

Under the condition that they submit a workable business plan, otherwise you're not saving anything and just wasting the money. And since the CEOs are oh-for-two in doing that when asking for billions of dollars of our money, and since the UAW has show zero interest in agreeing to a fair wage and benefits package, the only way for this to be achieved is to let them enter bankruptcy protection, get out of their existing contracts, and (among many other changes), implement a new, fair wage and benefits scale for all employees that closely mirrors that of the other companies that are successfully running auto businesses in the US.

 

 

Comprehension is not your big thing today huh?

 

When I spoke off concessions. Those concessions JUST happened. Then they offered more. Not necessarily in the past as you say. I never waved $7 billion dollars as anything. I mentioned $7 per hour. Now back to the concessions I mentioned, they WOULD bring the average worker down to be roughly $5 or so above other car companies... roughly $51.

 

And as many times as you say, it will never be true. No one raped the system. I do love how it's always the union worker that's raping the system and never the management with you.

 

O am glad that you would love to see these companies go down and possibly millions of jobs with them. Just proves how you could give two craps about the working man/woman. God help you if you ever need help or lose your job.

 

And finally... "since the UAW has show zero interest in agreeing to a fair wage and benefits package..." are you high or just so blind by hate for unions? How much more do the union and these workers have to give up?

[DC Tom]

Umm no. I am using this message board for networking nor would I ever.

 

So you're just being a pain in the ass. No wonder he won't answer you.

 

 

(And before anyone asks: I'll have something to add to this discussion just as soon as I finish reading GM's 2007 10-K...you did all read it and get your facts straight on their spending before you started posting in this thread, right? )

[pBills]

What?

 

 

 

My bad. I am not and would not.

[erynthered]

Under the condition that they submit a workable business plan, otherwise you're not saving anything and just wasting the money. And since the CEOs are oh-for-two in doing that when asking for billions of dollars of our money, and since the UAW has show zero interest in agreeing to a fair wage and benefits package, the only way for this to be achieved is to let them enter bankruptcy protection, get out of their existing contracts, and (among many other changes), implement a new, fair wage and benefits scale for all employees that closely mirrors that of the other companies that are successfully running auto businesses in the US.

 

 

Out of the 128 posts on OTW and the 171 post here, this is the best post of them all.

 

Thanks KD.

[pBills]

So you're just being a pain in the ass. No wonder he won't answer you.

 

 

(And before anyone asks: I'll have something to add to this discussion just as soon as I finish reading GM's 2007 10-K...you did all read it and get your facts straight on their spending before you started posting in this thread, right? )

 

 

If asking a simple question is being a pain in the ass. Sure, I am.

[pBills]

And this is why you will always be resigned to taking orders from others. Of course you've been placing blame. You've been doing it all along. Of course placing blame is reserved for historians and the books they will write, when they see everything perfectly in hindsight.

 

What needs to be done is a fix to the mess, and that means a bankruptcy filing and fixing the cost structure, production and distribution means of the entire auto industry.

 

But you can go ahead and think that this is only about cutting union workers' wages by $4/hr.

 

 

Actually I am a Director. Try again.

[KD in CA]

I have been using common sense. I have placed blame on everyone for the crisis they are in. You primarily place blame on the union and workers saying that they are greedy. One could easily say that about management as well.

Of course you could and no one would argue it, which is why we don't need a long thread about it. The difference is that the union greed costs about 20 times as much as the management greed based on the sheer numbers of people involved.

 

The Big 3 had to present a plan this go around, that was a prerequisite of Congress meeting with them again. No UAW person is looking to simply take the cash and run as you say. They want to save their jobs. And I certainly have never said that.

But obviously the Big 3 did NOT present a workable plan. See, in a real business you don't wait until you are 3 weeks away from supposedly 'running out of cash' to start putting a business plan together. When my company projected a cash crunch for next April, we laid off people in October to avoid the problem. Now of course GM has done the same thing except they chose not to take any steps to fix the issue 6 or 12 or 24 months in advance. They just plowed straight ahead knowing they were heading for a wall and assuming the taxpayers would bail them out.

 

And do the UAW people really want to save their jobs? If so, where is the offer to work for the same fair wages and benefits as non-union autoworkers? Seems to me like they are still playing poker rather than doing everything possible to save jobs. Shame on you for enabling such irresponsible behavior.