YellowLinesandArmadillos Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 The Union was at the table, Shelby et al, torpedoed the deal because they don't want one. They want to union bash and break and give subsidies away to their foreign competitors located in their states. Follow the money and you will see Sheby's so called principled stand is not so principled, but just a convenient foil to protect his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 That is a nice lie the RW keeps repeating, but Unions especially the UAW have been changing and they came to the table. But it is kind a like Stephan Marbury with the Knicks, why would he give up money all ready obligated to him unless he was going to a situation that was going to help him out in the future. I think the guys is a joke, but if the Knicks are going to poison the well in negotiations, why should he give up what is legally owed him??? And to further the argument, the UAW is willing to make concessions, but it doesn't sound like management of the big three are, so go take you misinformation and stow you RW talking points unless you can actually provide a solution that is worthy of discussion... Its very simple. From AP "GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69 including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses. Toyota says its total costs are around $48. The Japanese automaker has far fewer retirees and its pension and health care benefits are not as rich as those paid to UAW workers." If the UAW wants the same overpaying for unskilled labor, let them have it. Go breasts up and get a job in the real world where you are paid what your worth. Unskilled starting at about $8.00 per hour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Now, let's get back to building projects in Iraq Ya... Where we can't teach the damn Iraqis the importance of having electrical systems grounded. Anyway you slice, nobody is "grounded." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowLinesandArmadillos Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Its very simple. From AP "GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69 including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses. Toyota says its total costs are around $48. The Japanese automaker has far fewer retirees and its pension and health care benefits are not as rich as those paid to UAW workers." If the UAW wants the same overpaying for unskilled labor, let them have it. Go breasts up and get a job in the real world where you are paid what your worth. Unskilled starting at about $8.00 per hour. That isn't the whole story. Toyota paid its workers and average $8,000 bonuses in 2008, also the got $500 mil in subsidies from taxpayers for relocating here, not to mention all the subsidies they received from Japan. If you want to compare the two, then fine, be fully accurate... The actual cost of labor is much different.... Furthermore the Republicans and Shelby were trying to get the UAW to agree to $28 per hour overall, $20 less than you just underestimated for Toyota. That being said the retirees are a problem for Detroit, but the UAW shouldn't give away the kitchen sink and if the retirees lose their health benefits, guess who is going to pay for them anyway... you and me through Medicare and Medicaid.... be careful what you wish for. A solution has to be worked out, but it needs to be an honest brokering, not Union bashing. Hell if management would give back their bonuses for the last three years and halve their pay, they could make up the short term difference and prevent bankruptcy, but I don't see that happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Its very simple. From AP "GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69 including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses. Toyota says its total costs are around $48. The Japanese automaker has far fewer retirees and its pension and health care benefits are not as rich as those paid to UAW workers." If the UAW wants the same overpaying for unskilled labor, let them have it. Go breasts up and get a job in the real world where you are paid what your worth. Unskilled starting at about $8.00 per hour. The average union worker cannot be paid what they are actually worth on the open market because this country has minimum wage laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 That isn't the whole story. Toyota paid its workers and average $8,000 bonuses in 2008, also the got $500 mil in subsidies from taxpayers for relocating here, not to mention all the subsidies they received from Japan. If you want to compare the two, then fine, be fully accurate... The actual cost of labor is much different.... Furthermore the Republicans and Shelby were trying to get the UAW to agree to $28 per hour overall, $20 less than you just underestimated for Toyota. That being said the retirees are a problem for Detroit, but the UAW shouldn't give away the kitchen sink and if the retirees lose their health benefits, guess who is going to pay for them anyway... you and me through Medicare and Medicaid.... be careful what you wish for. A solution has to be worked out, but it needs to be an honest brokering, not Union bashing. Hell if management would give back their bonuses for the last three years and halve their pay, they could make up the short term difference and prevent bankruptcy, but I don't see that happening. But again, your not giving the entire story. The Carter administration gave a huge chunk of cash to both Chysler and GM. Is that not a subsidie?? How many times can you be subidized at taxpayers expense? Add on top of that there was heavy import tax on Japanese and Euro cars at that time and the Japs still figured out a way to be efficient enough to compete. Is it too much too ask our domestic guys to do that?? Or is it just easier to get bailed out every 25 years or so. How many times to help a loser? Like every other business, if they can't get their collective act together and build a better product at a decent price get out of the industry. Just like any other outfit would have to. And I do agree with the management part. Everyone in those company's are in the same boat. Everyone, including management, should take cuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molson_golden2002 Posted December 12, 2008 Author Share Posted December 12, 2008 But again, your not giving the entire story. The Carter administration gave a huge chunk of cash to both Chysler and GM. Is that not a subsidie?? How many times can you be subidized at taxpayers expense? Add on top of that there was heavy import tax on Japanese and Euro cars at that time and the Japs still figured out a way to be efficient enough to compete. Is it too much too ask our domestic guys to do that?? Or is it just easier to get bailed out every 25 years or so. How many times to help a loser? Like every other business, if they can't get their collective act together and build a better product at a decent price get out of the industry. Just like any other outfit would have to.And I do agree with the management part. Everyone in those company's are in the same boat. Everyone, including management, should take cuts. Ask the military industrail complex, don't see them asking for a bailout Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 That isn't the whole story. Toyota paid its workers and average $8,000 bonuses in 2008, also the got $500 mil in subsidies from taxpayers for relocating here, not to mention all the subsidies they received from Japan. If you want to compare the two, then fine, be fully accurate... The actual cost of labor is much different.... Furthermore the Republicans and Shelby were trying to get the UAW to agree to $28 per hour overall, $20 less than you just underestimated for Toyota. That being said the retirees are a problem for Detroit, but the UAW shouldn't give away the kitchen sink and if the retirees lose their health benefits, guess who is going to pay for them anyway... you and me through Medicare and Medicaid.... be careful what you wish for. A solution has to be worked out, but it needs to be an honest brokering, not Union bashing. Hell if management would give back their bonuses for the last three years and halve their pay, they could make up the short term difference and prevent bankruptcy, but I don't see that happening. :wallbash: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 The average union worker cannot be paid what they are actually worth on the open market because this country has minimum wage laws. And what do you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Don't worry, he'll be back in an hour for another 30 minute break. Man, you just about called that right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Man, you just about called that right! It's called a lunch hour that's almost over. You have one those right? Oh that's right thanks to the work of unions in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 It's called a lunch hour that's almost over. You have one those right? Oh that's right thanks to the work of unions in the past. I'm not getting involved in either one of these "Bailout" threads going on today. For the most part anyway. I've already stated my opinion on this. Nobody is going to change anybody's mind on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Miner Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 It's called a lunch hour that's almost over. You have one those right? Oh that's right thanks to the work of unions in the past. When's your next break? 2:30 I'm bettin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PastaJoe Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 But again, your not giving the entire story. The Carter administration gave a huge chunk of cash to both Chysler and GM. Is that not a subsidie?? How many times can you be subidized at taxpayers expense? That was a loan, and it was payed back to the gov't with interest. We actually made a profit on the deal while keeping them in business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 When's your next break? 2:30 I'm bettin Wrong. When I go home. I have a set lunch hour every day. Thanks for playing. Source Detroit Free Press: January 31, 2007 Auto-Worker Pay Per Hour UAW Average - $27 Toyota, KY - $30 Nissan, TN - $26+ Interesting how a few of the Republicans that killed this deal have large if not the largest foreign auto plants in the US in their state. They also receive backing from these companies. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#28184396 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowLinesandArmadillos Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 But again, your not giving the entire story. The Carter administration gave a huge chunk of cash to both Chysler and GM. Is that not a subsidie?? How many times can you be subidized at taxpayers expense? Add on top of that there was heavy import tax on Japanese and Euro cars at that time and the Japs still figured out a way to be efficient enough to compete. Is it too much too ask our domestic guys to do that?? Or is it just easier to get bailed out every 25 years or so. How many times to help a loser? Like every other business, if they can't get their collective act together and build a better product at a decent price get out of the industry. Just like any other outfit would have to.And I do agree with the management part. Everyone in those company's are in the same boat. Everyone, including management, should take cuts. I agree there are problems, but it is largely of managements decision making and not because of Union lack of willingness to negotiate, but when management refuses to make the sacrifices that the they are asking the unions to make, when they largely didn't react to a changing car market despite even congress critters telling them to do so, I don't buy this bankruptcy ploy. On top of which, compare salaries of these clowns to Toyota and Honda leadership, I would love to see that figure and finally Japan subsidizes and puts up way more barriers to our imports than we do to theirs. We gave away the kitchen sink in so called free trade pacts we signed over the last 30 years without comparable reciprocation... The car makers are at a disadvantage, but yet they are able to produce competitive cars for the Euro market, go over their sometime and what all the Ford, GM and Chrysler 4 bangers and turbo diesels zipping around. So, the problem is more foresight on managements part and ability to switch gears as the market begins to change, not afterwards. My question is if the US bought out the retirees health and pension system, why would the auto makers still have problems? They say they would despite proposals by both McCain and Obama to do just that.... Management is the problem once again, not the Unions, but it is typical for knuckle draggers such as Shelby trot out the lame horse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowLinesandArmadillos Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Ask the military industrail complex, don't see them asking for a bailout They did when Clinton was in office, they got Bush in office and he started Iraq just for them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 And what do you do? sniff around a bit, you'll figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 sniff around a bit, you'll figure it out. I don't have time for that. side note: Midway through the month, December's job cut total stands at 115,416. Let's not help out the big 3 and autoworkers. Maybe we can reach 1.2 million more by the end of next quarter. In terms of job losses, 2008 is on pace to be the worst since 1982, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics data. But if Baumohl's 600,000+ prediction is accurate, 2008 could show the greatest number of layoffs since 1945, when the economy shed 2.75 million jobs. http://money.cnn.com/news/specials/storysu...ateautoworkers/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Miner Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Wrong. When I go home. I have a set lunch hour every day. Thanks for playing. Source Detroit Free Press: January 31, 2007 Auto-Worker Pay Per Hour UAW Average - $27 Toyota, KY - $30 Nissan, TN - $26+ Interesting how a few of the Republicans that killed this deal have large if not the largest foreign auto plants in the US in their state. They also receive backing from these companies. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#28184396 Are you too stupid to understand the difference between salary and total compensation? Hourly wages aren't the problem. The ridiculous benefits that these companies pay their employees is. The regulations and rules that they have in place that negatively effect efficiency are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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