Bailout Deal Looks Dead

[Joe Miner]

Why is FU UAW? Because they did not want to lose or give up even more than they already have? Pensions have been cut, health care for retirees has been TAKEN ON BY THE UAW, a reduction in wages takes affect in 2010. Yes, F the UAW for screwing this up. My Butt.

 

It's republicans in right to work states who lose nothing if it goes through or lose nothing if it fails. They are just protecting their collective butts. Hell most of these same people have approved or helped approved millions in subsidies for Toyota, etc. They are worried about it being a waste of taxpayer money... Yeah right.

 

And to say make them squirm for every penny? Why? Oh that's because there is a different standard for wall street as compared to the big 3. Nothing more than a last attempt at class warfare.

 

Foreign car workers in the US earn about $48 per hour, salary and benefits included.

 

UAW workers earn about $68 per hour, salary and benefits included.

 

That's about a $40,000 a year difference in worker.

 

Why is that justified?

[finknottle]

Why is FU UAW? Because they did not want to lose or give up even more than they already have? Pensions have been cut, health care for retirees has been TAKEN ON BY THE UAW, a reduction in wages takes affect in 2010. Yes, F the UAW for screwing this up. My Butt.

 

And yet they still would be making more than American autoworkers working for other companies.

 

Come back when they are willing to get less than the Nissan workers to save their jobs, then we might be more sympathetic.

[molson_golden2002]

Foreign car workers in the US earn about $48 per hour, salary and benefits included.

 

UAW workers earn about $68 per hour, salary and benefits included.

 

That's about a $40,000 a year difference in worker.

 

Why is that justified?

You are completely missing the point

[elegantelliotoffen]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20081212/pl_politico/16515

 

Administration officials have been warning for weeks that failure to pass the bill could lead to an even deeper recession.

 

That was the message Vice President Dick Cheney brought to a closed-door Senate GOP lunch Wednesday, reportedly warning that it’ll be “Herbert Hoover” time if aid to the industry was rejected, according to a senator familiar with the remarks. A Cheney spokeswoman would neither confirm nor deny the vice president’s remarks.

[pBills]

Foreign car workers in the US earn about $48 per hour, salary and benefits included.

 

UAW workers earn about $68 per hour, salary and benefits included.

 

That's about a $40,000 a year difference in worker.

 

Why is that justified?

 

 

 

Wrong.

 

Posted on CNN.

 

 

Currently, analysts estimate the union workers at U.S. automakers make about $3 to $4 per hour more than the non-union U.S. employees of foreign automakers like Toyota and Honda, according to the Center for Automotive Research.

 

The benefit costs are significantly greater for U.S. automakers, though, because they have to pay health care costs for hundreds of thousands of retirees. The union agreed to close much of that gap in the 2007 labor agreements by shifting responsibility for retiree health care to union-controlled trust funds. But those changes won't take effect until 2010.

[pBills]

And yet they still would be making more than American autoworkers working for other companies.

 

Come back when they are willing to get less than the Nissan workers to save their jobs, then we might be more sympathetic.

 

 

 

So $3 to $4 per hour more than the non-union. That's a ton more huh?

[molson_golden2002]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20081212/pl_politico/16515

Who cares about the economy? Union workers are making more money than they should.

[Joe Miner]

Wrong.

 

Posted on CNN.

 

 

Currently, analysts estimate the union workers at U.S. automakers make about $3 to $4 per hour more than the non-union U.S. employees of foreign automakers like Toyota and Honda, according to the Center for Automotive Research.

 

The benefit costs are significantly greater for U.S. automakers, though, because they have to pay health care costs for hundreds of thousands of retirees. The union agreed to close much of that gap in the 2007 labor agreements by shifting responsibility for retiree health care to union-controlled trust funds. But those changes won't take effect until 2010.

 

Wrong

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28166218/

 

As I said, total compensation (salary + benefits) is $69 for UAW and $48 for foreign. You're quoting hourly pay above.

 

Hourly wages for UAW workers at GM factories are about equal to those paid by Toyota Motor Corp. at its older U.S. factories, according to the companies. GM says the average UAW laborer makes $29.78 per hour, while Toyota says it pays about $30 per hour. But the unionized factories have far higher benefit costs.

 

GM says its total hourly labor costs are now $69, including wages, pensions and health care for active workers, plus the pension and health care costs of more than 432,000 retirees and spouses. Toyota says its total costs are around $48. The Japanese automaker has far fewer retirees and its pension and health care benefits are not as rich as those paid to UAW workers.

[GG]

I continue to be torn on this. I have no faith in 2 of the big 3 but worry that letting them fail immediately would be very bad. I like the idea of making them squirm for every penny and forcing them to a faster restructuring (FU UAW) rather than giving them tons of time.

 

Ch. 11 filing does not mean immediate liquidation and failure. People who understand this crap are not arguing against putting money in. The argument is that the money needs to go in after all three file.

[finknottle]

So $3 to $4 per hour more than the non-union. That's a ton more huh?

 

My understanding is that while the control and responsibility for the healthcare will shift to the unions, the companies will still be making set contributions - it is simply a more predictable cost. Or do you think their contributions will stop entirely, and UAW will be paying for this out of their own money?

 

Likewise, the rest of the benefit contributions have not disappeared off of their balance sheets. The 3 to 4 dollar figure is simply a shiny talking point, designed to sway the gullible.

[pBills]

Wrong

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28166218/

 

As I said, total compensation (salary + benefits) is $69 for UAW and $48 for foreign. You're quoting hourly pay above.

 

 

And to that the union has taken on the benefits. Their concessions will greatly reduce the cost to the companies.

 

Chapter 11 will kill these companies. Who in their right mind will buy from a bankrupt company?

[pBills]

My understanding is that while the control and responsibility for the healthcare will shift to the unions, the companies will still be making set contributions - it is simply a more predictable cost. Or do you think their contributions will stop entirely, and UAW will be paying for this out of their own money?

 

Likewise, the rest of the benefit contributions have not disappeared off of their balance sheets. The 3 to 4 dollar figure is simply a shiny talking point, designed to sway the gullible.

 

 

Health Care for retirees will be taken over completely by the union. Funding for the will come from their investments.

[Joe Miner]

And to that the union has taken on the benefits. Their concessions will greatly reduce the cost to the companies.

 

Chapter 11 will kill these companies. Who in their right mind will buy from a bankrupt company?

 

Next year is 2009. The UAW won't start picking up SOME of the tab until 2010. There will still be a gap. Why won't the UAW agree to start picking up the tab now?

[Helmet_hair]

Great call! Why don't you cut off your foot the next time you do something wrong! That will teach you!

ok so I can expect a gov't bail out when I get stupid?

 

Haliburton is to the Republicans as the UAW is to the Democrats.

[elegantelliotoffen]

The Republicans killed this deal and have risked plunging this country deeper into recession over the difference between 2009 and 2011? Seriously?

 

Republicans, after reviewing the latest version of the proposal in a closed-door meeting, balked at giving automaker federal aid unless their powerful union agreed to slash wages next year to bring them into line with those of Japanese carmakers.

 

Republican Sen. George V. Voinovich of Ohio, a strong bailout supporter, said the United Auto Workers was willing to make the cuts, but not until 2011.

 

Thanks for putting your idiotic ideology which has already been repudiated by the American public the last two election cycles ahead of the country! What kind of an !@#$ do you have to be to play scorched-earth politics in the midst of the worst economic crisis since The Great Depression?

[ieatcrayonz]

These highly skilled union workers should have no problem finding a competitive position in the fast food industry.

[molson_golden2002]

Ch. 11 filing does not mean immediate liquidation and failure. People who understand this crap are not arguing against putting money in. The argument is that the money needs to go in after all three file.

Ah yes, the people that understand.

[pBills]

The Republicans killed this deal and have risked plunging this country deeper into recession over the difference between 2009 and 2011? Seriously?

 

Thanks for putting your idiotic ideology which has already been repudiated by the American public the last two election cycles ahead of the country! What kind of an !@#$ do you have to be to play scorched-earth politics in the midst of the worst economic crisis since The Great Depression?

 

 

 

Yes and eventually having a million more people out of work is great too buddy. I wonder if they will give money to Bank of America next... they are cutting what 35,000 jobs soon?

 

Playing politics? Who dumped the bridge loan?

[molson_golden2002]

The Republicans killed this deal and have risked plunging this country deeper into recession over the difference between 2009 and 2011? Seriously?

 

 

 

Thanks for putting your idiotic ideology which has already been repudiated by the American public the last two election cycles ahead of the country! What kind of an !@#$ do you have to be to play scorched-earth politics in the midst of the worst economic crisis since The Great Depression?

Its ok, the people that understand will take care of it

[finknottle]

Health Care for retirees will be taken over completely by the union. Funding for the will come from their investments.

 

Investments coming from a giant pot of cash that the automakers will fork over, probably on the order of $40 billion when all is said and done.

http://blog.mlive.com/statewidebusinesssto...would_give.html

 

In other words, the unions are getting their compensation for future costs in advance, insulating them against the possible failure of the companies. Pretty convenient that the democrats want to fork over some money right away, huh?

 

But that infusion comes from somewhere. It saddles the companies with added debt. It is benefits compensation anyway you look at it. In fact, part of the financial problems they are facing right now stem from making the $4 billion December contribution:

 

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/dec2008/uaw-d02.shtml

GM may also seek to alter the funding schedule for the VEBA program, which would threaten the health care benefits for hundreds of thousands of retirees and their dependents. Earlier this year, the union agreed to GM deferring a payment of $1.7 billion. Another payment of $4 billion is due in December 2009 and GM is reportedly seeking another delay.

 

As watchdog groups point out, this plan carries great risk of abuse. It rids the companies of a problem albeit at great cost, but the retirees money is under the control of organizations which in the past were notorious for corruption.

http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news-...etirees-2211-1/