Chump Change Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Especially when you consider that that $40 -50 million a year combined compensation, half of which over four years... since 2005 would equal 1B and be a start to executive contributing their fare share to the bailout. Yet it is the UAW and all it workers who asked to Rob Peter to pay Paul and keep the big three afloat... Meanwhile Japan subsidized its companies, controls it healthcare cost structure and Toyota claims its workers only cost what $43 an hour.... Fine get the U.S. workers to $51 and then have the government subsidize and set healthcare cost rates... then we are talking apples to apples. How is this apples to apples? Care to elaborate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACor58 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Oh dear Fing god. I had said earlier that since these autoworkers have already or will be losing a lot with cuts in the health care and cuts in their pensions and on top of that not receiving bonuses like the foreign autoworkers receive... I believe that it is fair for them to receive the few extra bucks per hour. Let's face it they have come to the table via the UAW and have given up a lot in order to save the companies.Now did you get that? Do you need me to email you a copy? Maybe post on some sort of Anti-Union, Class Warfare site for you? Now answer this... Is it worth the $15 billion to attempt to save millions of jobs? Or should the government let the companies die and hope that these people won't remain jobless for to long. Along with the other 1 million + unemployed workers? Did you just say fair? Do you even read what you post. THE COMPANIES ARE LOSING MONEY!!!! Where will the "few extra bucks per hour" be coming from. If GM loses money it needs to reduce costs, including labor. You are too dumb to realize that you have no leverage right now. If you don't make concessions now you will not have jobs. You talk about how dire the situation out of one side of your mouth, but you will not make concessions until 2010 and 2011 out of the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 I agree. That's why if the unions aren't willing to grant concessions then the deal should be off the table. We'll all suffer, short term. I guess we have to accept that there are no easy answers or good solutions, just bad and worse. I like to be optimistic. I think a decision to tell them they are on their own will be a positive in the long run. The same should have been said to the banks but that's another debate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowLinesandArmadillos Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 How is this apples to apples? Care to elaborate? Because with subsidized healthcare or control health care costs would allow workers in the US to obtain the same benefits their Japanese brethren receive....Apples to Apples, equal compensation? Not new math, but simple math 2=2 unless you are like DC Tom who can make 2 equal whatever he darn well pleases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Because with subsidized healthcare or control health care costs would allow workers in the US to obtain the same benefits their Japanese brethren receive....Apples to Apples, equal compensation? Not new math, but simple math 2=2 unless you are like DC Tom who can make 2 equal whatever he darn well pleases. Who is subsidizing the health care costs of US workers in non-union plants? That's what we're talking about, no whatever is happening in Japan. But I really love the argument that the way to compete with Japanese manufacturers is to overpay for labor in the US. What's next, do we need to give all the unions six weeks of vacation to compete with France? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowLinesandArmadillos Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 No, but don't pay according to the prevailing wage at some anti-labor states like Alabama where the majority of their people don't care if they live in double wides built years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowLinesandArmadillos Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Also, because of the subsidies and anti-labor states they can get a comparative advantage as these states give these foreign cos whatever they want and Japan puts up trade barriers against our companies... Fair should be fair, then I will buy your argument it is the UAW that is the problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manateefan Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Foreign car workers in the US earn about $48 per hour, salary and benefits included. UAW workers earn about $68 per hour, salary and benefits included. That's about a $40,000 a year difference in worker. Why is that justified? I heard that UAW workers were around $75 (pay and benefits). That's almost $30 an hour more, not $20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manateefan Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 That is not an answer. What you are saying is that they are entitled - that is a big difference between deserving an additional $12, 800,000 per year. GM, Ford and Chrysler are losing money, they are not in a position to pay out bonuses. They cannot afford to pay their workers the "prevailing wage" so they should be making less or find another job to pay them what they think they are worth. Out of curiosity, what do you do for a living. I am not going to judge you or bash you, I would just like to know where your perspective is coming from. I work for a local government (whom everyone hates). Because construction is down and property taxes are falling, some people have been laid off, some took lower paying jobs and nobody is getting a raise. That includes directors of the departments, etc. And it doesn't look like we will get one next year. But I make a decent wage and have decent benefits. Maybe if the union conceded raises for a year or two (without cut in pay or benefits) this thing could be resolved. As far as the person who commented on the US bailing out Chrysler before. It was a loan and Lee Ioccoca, CEO at that time, paid it back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manateefan Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Spare me that bullsh--. Companies are forced by the government to make deals with the unions. Every union contract is signed under duress and you know it. UAW worker lack the ability to build a car that people want to buy, therefore they should be absorbing the cost of capital required to keep them afloat. How about that? Of course this is another distraction tactic since we are all saying they should simply be paid the SAME, not less. Not totally true. I love the Ford Mustang, a car built by UAW workers. My brother-in-law who worked (now retired after 30 years) for Ford also told me not to buy a car built on a Monday or a Friday (ask the dealer for the paperwork, and it tells you when it came off the line). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blzrul Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 My Congressman just sent me an email in response to my communication ... it's very very long, but I was surprised to learn that the $14b is actually funding that was "previously appropriated funds for the Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Loan Program". Great, now I have to go look that up. So if the funding was already appropriated...it's not new, it's just being re-allocated...? Then why take it from the $700b (except that money is not being used wisely anyway so what the heck)...? I am not going to read the ATVMLP bill tonight but, if this isn't new money I fail to see why all the Republican grandstanding. If the companies are out of business there won't be a need for the ATVMLP will there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Well, not the whole thing, though I probably should. I did go through the MD&A, financials and several of the supporting schedules back when the first whiff of this was discussed here. It's friggin ugly. Steel prices have killed them along with everything else. I'm kind of stunned by the whole "We're in good shape because we've pared our losses down to six billion" angle of it. I have no doubt that GM deserves to go into Ch. 11, after reading that. I still think that dumping a few tens of billions into them to delay it is probably worthwhile. Was it mentioned yet in this thread that they're "temporarily" shutting down 40% of their plants come January? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Are you as equally as outraged over the disparate CEO compensation levels between American and Japanese automotive companies? Why does the CEO of GM make over 9 million dollars in compensation compared to the 900,000 made by Toyota's CEO? Are you leading the charge for capping CEO compensation? Oh, I forgot you don't condone class warfare. Yeah, right. Good lord, man...now you're resorting to posting links to the thread you're posting in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Especially when you consider that that $40 -50 million a year combined compensation, half of which over four years... since 2005 would equal 1B and be a start to executive contributing their fare share to the bailout. You keep harping on this. Never mind that I can't get your math to work. But where do those figure come from and what are they made up of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantelliotoffen Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Good lord, man...now you're resorting to posting links to the thread you're posting in? Looks like another wild and crazy late Friday message board hopping for Talking Point Tom! Man your life must be exciting! Just some advice, there is much more to life than flexing your talking points on the politics sub-forum of a Buffalo Bills message board to impress idiots like KD in CT (who is against class warfare). It's past midnight on a Friday and it's not even like you're working on your own personal blog, or posting on National Review Online, or Redstate, or Free Republic, where people may actually read your rants, you're posting like there's no tomorrow on the politics sub-forum of a Buffalo Bills message board. Your claim to fame is spamming the Siberia of online political discourse, nice life! And by the way isn't it ironic that your only rebuttal to my exposition of you misrepresenting the "computer models" talking point as your own thoughts is that I link to my sources (something blowhards like yourself can't do when you're just making sh-- up) has through your own repetition and the subsequent diffusion to your cadre of brain dead fanboys has in fact become a TALKING POINT! Congratulations on living up to your well deserved moniker Talking Point Tom! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finknottle Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Who is subsidizing the health care costs of US workers in non-union plants? That's what we're talking about, no whatever is happening in Japan. Get with the spin, man. The story line is that the big three is the US auto industry, and that if they go bankrupt then US auto manufacturing goes with it. The existance of (foreign-owned) plants in red states is an inconvenient truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 My Congressman just sent me an email in response to my communication ... it's very very long, but I was surprised to learn that the $14b is actually funding that was "previously appropriated funds for the Advanced Technology Vehicles Manufacturing Loan Program". Great, now I have to go look that up. So if the funding was already appropriated...it's not new, it's just being re-allocated...? Then why take it from the $700b (except that money is not being used wisely anyway so what the heck)...? Oh, it's been appropriated, so I guess that means it's free money. I am not going to read the ATVMLP bill tonight but, if this isn't new money I fail to see why all the Republican grandstanding. If the companies are out of business there won't be a need for the ATVMLP will there.... Asking the companies to provide evidence that they have some idea how to run their businesses so that this isn't simply throwing good money after bad now = "grandstanding"? Grow up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantelliotoffen Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Oh, it's been appropriated, so I guess that means it's free money. Asking the companies to provide evidence that they have some idea how to run their businesses so that this isn't simply throwing good money after bad now = "grandstanding"? Grow up. There's nothing like a little class warfare to start one's weekend on the right foot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 Not totally true. I love the Ford Mustang, a car built by UAW workers. My brother-in-law who worked (now retired after 30 years) for Ford also told me not to buy a car built on a Monday or a Friday (ask the dealer for the paperwork, and it tells you when it came off the line). I didn't mean to imply that UAW can't build quality cars. I was replying to someone else's hypothetical. Clearly much of the fault for the crappy cars is in the design process for the Big 3. The problem with labor costs is that they drive the cost to build the car higher, meaning that the Big 3 has to either a) increase prices, which hurts them competitively b) cut costs in other places, which lowers quality, or c) lose billions of dollars and ask the taxpayers to bail out their business. Seems to me that creating a workable cost structure makes a whole lot more sense than any of those 3 options. I've yet to hear an intelligent argument for why that isn't reasonable or seen any evidence that it can be accomplished without a major change in the cost of labor. Instead what we hear is excuses like "but if healthcare was cheaper" or "but look what Japan does" or "but they've already given up blah, blah, blah", all of which is irrelevant to the fact that the problem hasn't been solved and won't be solved until there is major fundamental shift in the thinking of operations of the Big 3 and its unions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantelliotoffen Posted December 13, 2008 Share Posted December 13, 2008 I didn't mean to imply that UAW can't build quality cars. I was replying to someone else's hypothetical. Clearly much of the fault for the crappy cars is in the design process for the Big 3. The problem with labor costs is that they drive the cost to build the car higher, meaning that the Big 3 has to either a) increase prices, which hurts them competitively b) cut costs in other places, which lowers quality, or c) lose billions of dollars and ask the taxpayers to bail out their business. Seems to me that creating a workable cost structure makes a whole lot more sense than any of those 3 options. I've yet to hear an intelligent argument for why that isn't reasonable or seen any evidence that it can be accomplished without a major change in the cost of labor. Instead what we hear is excuses like "but if healthcare was cheaper" or "but look what Japan does" or "but they've already given up blah, blah, blah", all of which is irrelevant to the fact that the problem hasn't been solved and won't be solved until there is major fundamental shift in the thinking of operations of the Big 3 and its unions. ~Anxiously awaiting your explanation of how shrieking "Hey! Look at what those UAW workers have!" is not playing class warfare~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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