Bailout Deal Looks Dead

[blzrul]

I read an analysis in the past day or so claiming that the cost of NOT keeping these dumbasses in business would go well above $100b - given the domino effect of job loss, tax revenue loss etc through the industry and its suppliers.

 

I don't know that it's true but it's one way of looking at things. Obviously we all know about the people who would be out of work and can relate to that (many people on this board are empathic human beings, although quite a few are simply pigs who are a total waste of oxygen and other nutrients)....but when you dig into all the ripple effects I am starting to think that these loans may be necessary.

 

There has just got to be strict oversight and accountability. I don't know who Bush would appoint as car czar, but his track record isn't good ("Brownie's doing a great job!") ...

[elegantelliotoffen]

Of course you could and no one would argue it, which is why we don't need a long thread about it. The difference is that the union greed costs about 20 times as much as the management greed based on the sheer numbers of people involved.

 

And do the UAW people really want to save their jobs? If so, where is the offer to work for the same fair wages and benefits as non-union autoworkers? Seems to me like they are still playing poker rather than doing everything possible to save jobs. Shame on you for enabling such irresponsible behavior.

 

Amazing!

 

I'm not registered with either major party myself, though I place much more weight on the issues that I disagree with the Dems on (taxes, class warfare, lack of personal accountability) than on those I disagree with the GOP on (mostly social issues per my other post).

 

Of course, the Democrats are just as bad and they promote class warfare and race baiting along the way.

 

I would like someone to shake the tree too...but in an intelligent manner. Rehashing the same old socialist, class warfare bullsh-- is hardly 'shaking the tree'.

 

They've been trying to do just that in CT for years. Just another angle on the class warfare bullsh--.

[DC Tom]

I read an analysis in the past day or so claiming that the cost of NOT keeping these dumbasses in business would go well above $100b - given the domino effect of job loss, tax revenue loss etc through the industry and its suppliers.

 

I don't know that it's true but it's one way of looking at things. Obviously we all know about the people who would be out of work and can relate to that (many people on this board are empathic human beings, although quite a few are simply pigs who are a total waste of oxygen and other nutrients)....but when you dig into all the ripple effects I am starting to think that these loans may be necessary.

 

There has just got to be strict oversight and accountability. I don't know who Bush would appoint as car czar, but his track record isn't good ("Brownie's doing a great job!") ...

 

I suspect that's true. I went through it with some people last night, and our quik-and-dirty calculation came up with a number closer to $250B.

 

I'm comfortable bailing out Detroit on that principle alone: delaying the cost to the economy of the industry's failure until such time as the economy is better able to absorb the failure. I've been saying all along: this bailout is nothing more than a federal jobs program.

[KD in CA]

O am glad that you would love to see these companies go down and possibly millions of jobs with them. Just proves how you could give two craps about the working man/woman. God help you if you ever need help or lose your job.

Oh yes, we're back to the 'you don't care about the working man' bullsh--. Yeah...you care plenty; as long as your union giveaways are in place. I've held four jobs since graduating from college and been laid off from two of them. And by some miracle I managed to find another job each time on my own.

 

And finally... "since the UAW has show zero interest in agreeing to a fair wage and benefits package..." are you high or just so blind by hate for unions? How much more do the union and these workers have to give up?

Is WHO blind? I think I've been pretty clear on this point. How much more do they have to give up? However much it takes UNTIL THEY ARE PAID THE SAME FAIR WAGE AND BENEFITS AS THE NON-UNION AUTO WORKERS AT OTHER US AUTO MANUFACTURING FACILITIES THAT ARE RUN BY COMPANIES THAT ARE NOT ASKING FOR BILLIONS OF TAXPAYER DOLLARS TO PAY THEIR BILLS.

 

Understand yet?

[elegantelliotoffen]

Is WHO blind? I think I've been pretty clear on this point. How much more do they have to give up? However much it takes UNTIL THEY ARE PAID THE SAME FAIR WAGE AND BENEFITS AS THE NON-UNION AUTO WORKERS AT OTHER US AUTO MANUFACTURING FACILITIES THAT ARE RUN BY COMPANIES THAT ARE NOT ASKING FOR BILLIONS OF TAXPAYER DOLLARS TO PAY THEIR BILLS.

 

Understand yet?

 

Clearly these are the words of someone who doesn't condone class warfare.

[GG]

I read an analysis in the past day or so claiming that the cost of NOT keeping these dumbasses in business would go well above $100b - given the domino effect of job loss, tax revenue loss etc through the industry and its suppliers.

 

I don't know that it's true but it's one way of looking at things. Obviously we all know about the people who would be out of work and can relate to that (many people on this board are empathic human beings, although quite a few are simply pigs who are a total waste of oxygen and other nutrients)....but when you dig into all the ripple effects I am starting to think that these loans may be necessary.

 

There has just got to be strict oversight and accountability. I don't know who Bush would appoint as car czar, but his track record isn't good ("Brownie's doing a great job!") ...

 

And you can also read that if an asteroid hits the Earth, billions will die, and it doesn't prevent the retardia from building a rocket ship now to escape the pending doom.

 

Way to buy into the hysteria. Who is talking about the auto industry shutting down? Did planes fall out of the sky when airlines filed? Did we go to the stone age when steelmakers filed? The largest auto suplliers in US & Canada have been bankrupt for 2 years, yet the cars are still being made.

[KD in CA]

There has just got to be strict oversight and accountability. I don't know who Bush would appoint as car czar, but his track record isn't good ("Brownie's doing a great job!") ...

Thankfully I don't think it will be Bush's decision. Of course, if the Obama appointee doesn't do anything other than trumpet 'CEO comp' victories it isn't going to be any better. Obviously they are going to give them the money in the end, but IMO the oversight should be draconian and not spare any aspect of the business.

 

(And before anyone asks: I'll have something to add to this discussion just as soon as I finish reading GM's 2007 10-K...you did all read it and get your facts straight on their spending before you started posting in this thread, right? )

Well, not the whole thing, though I probably should. I did go through the MD&A, financials and several of the supporting schedules back when the first whiff of this was discussed here. It's friggin ugly. Steel prices have killed them along with everything else.

[GG]

Well, not the whole thing, though I probably should. I did go through the MD&A, financials and several of the supporting schedules back when the first whiff of this was discussed here. It's friggin ugly. Steel prices have killed them along with everything else.

 

Go to Pensions & OPEB.

[John Adams]

I've been saying all along: this bailout is nothing more than a federal jobs program.

 

Cool. Hire 'em to build roads then.

[blzrul]

And you can also read that if an asteroid hits the Earth, billions will die, and it doesn't prevent the retardia from building a rocket ship now to escape the pending doom.

 

Way to buy into the hysteria. Who is talking about the auto industry shutting down? Did planes fall out of the sky when airlines filed? Did we go to the stone age when steelmakers filed? The largest auto suplliers in US & Canada have been bankrupt for 2 years, yet the cars are still being made.

I am not hysterical. I mentioned a report with an interesting angle. And I also stated that I didn't know if it was true, but that if so it's an aspect I hadn't thought of.

 

Of course, being a flaming **** yourself you didn't see past who posted before you decided on a personal attack, And since you ARE such an **** your opinion is schit.

 

It might interest you to know that my congressional representatives all received messages from me against the 700b and against the automaker bailout.

 

But then again, being an **** more interested in your personal agenda, perhaps it wouldn't.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Go to Pensions & OPEB.

 

Like you said... I am clueless... Shouldn't pensions plans be solvent by themselves... Once you kick in and so does the company... Isn't that money being invested safely and securely and NOT TOUCHED until the pensioner retires?

 

Again... Like you said, I am just a dummy...

[KD in CA]

Go to Pensions & OPEB.

 

Oh I know all about that. But don't worry, the excuse mongers will be sure to tell us that the PBGC will pay for it. After all, they grow money on trees over there.

 

I just love how a company that burned $7.5B in operations last quarter is going to make everything right with this bailout (oh wait, "loan").

 

 

 

Like you said... I am clueless... Shouldn't pensions plans be solvent by themselves... Once you kick in and so does the company... Isn't that money being invested safely and securely and NOT TOUCHED until the pensioner retires?

They should be. But when the company doesn't fund them to a level required to support the promised benefits, they aren't. Welcome to yet another dirty little secret that will become the taxpayers' problem.

[Fingon]

So uh.... How are the big 3 suppose to make cars comparable in quality to foreign ones, if it costs them more to make them? That's the problem with UAW compensation not being almost exactly the same as foreign workers.

 

 

 

As long as there is that difference, foreign cars will always be better as they have more money invested in them. In turn, that will make sales of foreign cars even higher.

[GG]

Like you said... I am clueless... Shouldn't pensions plans be solvent by themselves... Once you kick in and so does the company... Isn't that money being invested safely and securely and NOT TOUCHED until the pensioner retires?

 

Again... Like you said, I am just a dummy...

 

The only thing that's safe about pensions is the amount that a company has contributed to date, which sits in a separate trust from all other assets. But, whether that amount will be enough to satisfy all future pension obligations will depend on how well those investments perform (keep kicking Wall Street) and how long the retirees will live.

 

Of course none of the MENSA committee ever brings up the pension liability and the nut that GM has to carry for the entire work force, as its employment and profit base declines, while every pension plan just took a two year hit in the last three months. But it's ok, it's only about the plight of the poor union workers.

[elegantelliotoffen]

So uh.... How are the big 3 suppose to make cars comparable in quality to foreign ones, if it costs them more to make them? That's the problem with UAW compensation not being almost exactly the same as foreign workers.

 

 

 

As long as there is that difference, foreign cars will always be better as they have more money invested in them. In turn, that will make sales of foreign cars even higher.

 

What are the differences between the automobile trade policies from country to country(Not a rhetorical or gotcha question)?

[Dante]

I suspect that's true. I went through it with some people last night, and our quik-and-dirty calculation came up with a number closer to $250B.

 

I'm comfortable bailing out Detroit on that principle alone: delaying the cost to the economy of the industry's failure until such time as the economy is better able to absorb the failure. I've been saying all along: this bailout is nothing more than a federal jobs program.

At sometime, there has to be a precedent established. Failure can't be rewarded just because of short term consequences. The long term goal is more important. Having corporations, unions and governments fiscally responsible. Balanced books and so on. If we keep giving in because we are afraid, the core problem still isn't resolved and we are doomed to repeat history. Like I pointed out before this isnt the first time these schmucks have been bailed out. As for all the people being out of work? I suspect some car company will have to fill the void of available cars by the collapse of the big 3. Won't that constitute the hiring of more people? Maybe not straight away but soon enough. Bottom line there is going to be short term pain but at least we will be making the hard decisions to improve in the long run.

[YellowLinesandArmadillos]

Of course you could and no one would argue it, which is why we don't need a long thread about it. The difference is that the union greed costs about 20 times as much as the management greed based on the sheer numbers of people involved.

 

 

But obviously the Big 3 did NOT present a workable plan. See, in a real business you don't wait until you are 3 weeks away from supposedly 'running out of cash' to start putting a business plan together. When my company projected a cash crunch for next April, we laid off people in October to avoid the problem. Now of course GM has done the same thing except they chose not to take any steps to fix the issue 6 or 12 or 24 months in advance. They just plowed straight ahead knowing they were heading for a wall and assuming the taxpayers would bail them out.

 

And do the UAW people really want to save their jobs? If so, where is the offer to work for the same fair wages and benefits as non-union autoworkers? Seems to me like they are still playing poker rather than doing everything possible to save jobs. Shame on you for enabling such irresponsible behavior.

Especially when you consider that that $40 -50 million a year combined compensation, half of which over four years... since 2005 would equal 1B and be a start to executive contributing their fare share to the bailout. Yet it is the UAW and all it workers who asked to Rob Peter to pay Paul and keep the big three afloat... Meanwhile Japan subsidized its companies, controls it healthcare cost structure and Toyota claims its workers only cost what $43 an hour.... Fine get the U.S. workers to $51 and then have the government subsidize and set healthcare cost rates... then we are talking apples to apples.

[blzrul]

At sometime, there has to be a precedent established. Failure can't be rewarded just because of short term consequences. The long term goal is more important. Having corporations, unions and governments fiscally responsible. Balanced books and so on. If we keep giving in because we are afraid, the core problem still isn't resolved and we are doomed to repeat history. Like I pointed out before this isnt the first time these schmucks have been bailed out. As for all the people being out of work? I suspect some car company will have to fill the void of available cars by the collapse of the big 3. Won't that constitute the hiring of more people? Maybe not straight away but soon enough. Bottom line there is going to be short term pain but at least we will be making the hard decisions to improve in the long run.

I agree. That's why if the unions aren't willing to grant concessions then the deal should be off the table. We'll all suffer, short term. I guess we have to accept that there are no easy answers or good solutions, just bad and worse.

[ACor58]

Why do these incompetent CEO and executive deserve to earn 27 mil per year plus excessive bonuses, especially when the Company is losing money? Please answer my question? What value do they add???

 

They don't - executive compensation is a seperate issue, but to answer your question they don't. Wagoner should be canned.

[elegantelliotoffen]

Why do UAW workers deserve to earn $5 more per hour than non-UAW workers? What skills or qualifications do they have to justify the premium for their services?

 

Are you as equally as outraged over the disparate CEO compensation levels between American and Japanese automotive companies? Why does the CEO of GM make over 9 million dollars in compensation compared to the 900,000 made by Toyota's CEO? Are you leading the charge for capping CEO compensation? Oh, I forgot you don't condone class warfare. Yeah, right.

 

I'm not registered with either major party myself, though I place much more weight on the issues that I disagree with the Dems on (taxes, class warfare, lack of personal accountability) than on those I disagree with the GOP on (mostly social issues per my other post).

 

Of course, the Democrats are just as bad and they promote class warfare and race baiting along the way.

 

I would like someone to shake the tree too...but in an intelligent manner. Rehashing the same old socialist, class warfare bullsh-- is hardly 'shaking the tree'.

 

They've been trying to do just that in CT for years. Just another angle on the class warfare bullsh--.