Begone

[Dawgg]

To the second part.....I think you are way of the mark. One draft selection which turned into a good player could never be that big a cause for 'flushing down the toilet'. Consider that the 2nd round pick most likely would have busted out(based upon odds).

 

This is a fairly stupid argument. By your logic, teams should always trade up because the odds are against them in the second round.

 

Your blanket statement assumes all front offices are created equal. Are you telling me that the likelihood of a Matt Millen pick busting is the same as that of AJ Smith? Absolutely not. The 2006 draft was one of the deepest in years. Passing on a trade in favor of drafting Whitner was a bad strategy.

[Dibs]

This is a fairly stupid argument. By your logic, teams should always trade up because the odds are against them in the second round.

 

Your blanket statement assumes all front offices are created equal. Are you telling me that the likelihood of a Matt Millen pick busting is the same as that of AJ Smith? Absolutely not. The 2006 draft was one of the deepest in years. Passing on a trade in favor of drafting Whitner was a bad strategy.

How do you figure that? I was arguing against the comment that the Whitner situation dumped us in the toilet. I pointed out that we got a good player......and there is no reason to expect a 2nd round pick would develop into a good player, in fact odds are on that they bust......therefore.....the DW drafting was not disastrous for the team at all.

 

FO ability is a different argument......as is the argument that a well run(coached & coordinated) team can produce better players from training & situation.

 

Bad strategy? Only in hindsight. If we had taken the trade & picked 2 busts......and every player we could have gotten in not doing a trade turned out a solid player then we'd be saying it was a bad move to do the trade. Hindsight is always 20/20.

[Dibs]

Give it a few more posts and we'll be getting the "at least Whitner isn't a bust" excuse.

SS was, is, and always will be a luxury pick. Buffalo hasn't been able to make a luxury pick since about 1993.

If you say so.....many experts/analysts/Good NFL teams disagree though.

You'd think after this season that a lack of pass rush would be shown as a greater priority than anything on defense. There are still some clingers-on who disagree.

And as I've shown earlier in this thread.....I'm not one of them. Since we are(yet again) talking about the 2006 draft, the only viable pass rusher was #20 Tamba Hali. The main error IMO by our FO(as I've said) was to lock up our DEs to big money long term contracts.

Also can't help but notice Ngata and Bunkley starting for their teams. And playing really well.

N'Gata was not an option. Apart from certain issues about him listed pre-draft which might well have kept us away from him, we had committed to the T2 D which N'Gata did not look like a good fit in. There are great arguments that going with the T2 was a big mistake but once the decision was made, it therefore becomes a non-mistake to ignore N'gata.

Bunkley is a different issue. It took him a while to develop.....but he certainly would have fitted the system. In the end I'd rather Stroud over Bunkley at this point.

[BillsVet]

How do you figure that? I was arguing against the comment that the Whitner situation dumped us in the toilet. I pointed out that we got a good player......and there is no reason to expect a 2nd round pick would develop into a good player, in fact odds are on that they bust......therefore.....the DW drafting was not disastrous for the team at all.

 

Dropping down a few slots and acquiring extra picks is what most quality front offices do. Bill Parcells has advanced this strategy many times. It's not guaranteed, but having a mid first along with a 2nd in addition to your regular second and two thirds would really have given this team more options. It's like having a $5 lottery ticket or a $2 and 3 $1 versions. More chances to win. But DJ and ML couldn't help themselves. They got greedy, and it backfired.

 

I could have seen taking Whitner without trading up for McCargo. But the Bills decided they needed both players in 06, which you do not do in a rebuilding year. The threat of losing out on Unmotivated McCargo scared them into trading for him.

 

No matter how it's spun, that 06 draft was average at best. Whitner, McCargo, Youboty, Simpson, Butler, Williams, and Ellison. Nearly three full seasons into their NFL careers, you have one legit starter (Whitner), two average starters (Butler, Williams), one below average starter (Simpson), an oft-injured CB (Youboty), and a busted first rounder (Johnny Mac).

 

Marv's first foray into the draft was not as great as many made it out to be.

[Dibs]

Dropping down a few slots and acquiring extra picks is what most quality front offices do. Bill Parcells has advanced this strategy many times. It's not guaranteed, but having a mid first along with a 2nd in addition to your regular second and two thirds would really have given this team more options. It's like having a $5 lottery ticket or a $2 and 3 $1 versions. More chances to win. But DJ and ML couldn't help themselves. They got greedy, and it backfired.

 

I could have seen taking Whitner without trading up for McCargo. But the Bills decided they needed both players in 06, which you do not do in a rebuilding year. The threat of losing out on Unmotivated McCargo scared them into trading for him.

 

No matter how it's spun, that 06 draft was average at best. Whitner, McCargo, Youboty, Simpson, Butler, Williams, and Ellison. Nearly three full seasons into their NFL careers, you have one legit starter (Whitner), two average starters (Butler, Williams), one below average starter (Simpson), an oft-injured CB (Youboty), and a busted first rounder (Johnny Mac).

 

Marv's first foray into the draft was not as great as many made it out to be.

I agree with most of that......it's true.

Your lottery analogy is not good though. Firstly, there is no correct strategy on draft day. A trade up or down, standing pat, reaching for position of need, taking best available player.......non of these are the right nor wrong things to do.

Secondly, you assume certain motivations while ignoring others. I viewed it that there were 2 prime factors in the Whitner pick. He was one of the most NFL ready players in the draft......and he was supposedly one of the closest 'won't bust' players in the draft. IMO the FO......looking at the lack of quality players on the roster.....and looking at the copious number of 1st round busts we'd had the past 8 years.....they wanted a pick that would not be waisted. To my mind it was less the 'being greedy' aspect as you put it and more the 'play it safe' aspect.

 

In the end I find myself baffled at the concept that so many fans remain so unhappy with a draft pick that panned out very well & contributes greatly to the team.

 

"But it could have been better!"

"So what?"

[Flbillsfan#1]

I am so fed up with this team, I would be happy to get rid of EVERYONE in the building (except Bobby April)

[BillsVet]

N'Gata was not an option. Apart from certain issues about him listed pre-draft which might well have kept us away from him, we had committed to the T2 D which N'Gata did not look like a good fit in. There are great arguments that going with the T2 was a big mistake but once the decision was made, it therefore becomes a non-mistake to ignore N'gata.

Bunkley is a different issue. It took him a while to develop.....but he certainly would have fitted the system. In the end I'd rather Stroud over Bunkley at this point.

 

Ngata wasn't an option because this team never considered it. Rather, we were led to believe by OBD that he didn't have the requisite skills to succeed in our soon to come horrible defense. (Allowed 140 rypg in 06, 125 rypg in 07) before finally trading for a sizable DT.

 

Ngata is a unique player, in that he has the footwork to succeed in any defense he play, whether as a 3-4NT or 4-3 1 gap. Unfortunately, many fans refuse to consider this and repeat the company line that he wasn't an option. Patently false.

 

It's important to admit how many resources this team has poured into the DT position. They signed a moderate FA deal with Tripplett. (5 yrs 18.5M) traded a 2nd and 3rd for McCargo, and used a high 5th on Williams. When none of this worked, the front office was forced to trade for a high dollar player in Stroud (which has been a good deal so far) and gave up a 3rd and 5th. Meanwhile, they signed Spencer Johnson to a 5 yr 17.5M FA contract.

 

All of this for their DT rotation. This team has proven that they over-allocate to cover up for problems they themselves started. Tripplett and McCargo were busts, Williams is average at best, Sp. Johnson isn't playing as much as I'd hope, and Stroud is very good IMHO.

 

Whether Bunkley had a learning curve or not (the position usually does) it does excuse the fact that the Bills have been mediocre on both draft and game days.

[Gordio]

I think we could all agree due to Ralph's lets just say frugal ways this team needs to be built thru the draft. It occurred to me on the drive home from work that the bills have traded up twice to get back into the 1st rnd in the last 5yrs. For their trade up they got Losman & Mcgargo. I think we could all agree now that these 2 players have been big time busts. So basically the bills have thrown away 4 first day draft picks in the last 5 years on players that are not going to be on this team next year.

[Gordio]

Ngata wasn't an option because this team never considered it. Rather, we were led to believe by OBD that he didn't have the requisite skills to succeed in our soon to come horrible defense. (Allowed 140 rypg in 06, 125 rypg in 07) before finally trading for a sizable DT.

 

Ngata is a unique player, in that he has the footwork to succeed in any defense he play, whether as a 3-4NT or 4-3 1 gap. Unfortunately, many fans refuse to consider this and repeat the company line that he wasn't an option. Patently false.

 

It's important to admit how many resources this team has poured into the DT position. They signed a moderate FA deal with Tripplett. (5 yrs 18.5M) traded a 2nd and 3rd for McCargo, and used a high 5th on Williams. When none of this worked, the front office was forced to trade for a high dollar player in Stroud (which has been a good deal so far) and gave up a 3rd and 5th. Meanwhile, they signed Spencer Johnson to a 5 yr 17.5M FA contract.

 

All of this for their DT rotation. This team has proven that they over-allocate to cover up for problems they themselves started. Tripplett and McCargo were busts, Williams is average at best, Sp. Johnson isn't playing as much as I'd hope, and Stroud is very good IMHO.

 

Whether Bunkley had a learning curve or not (the position usually does) it does excuse the fact that the Bills have been mediocre on both draft and game days.

 

Great post. Tired of the company line. Watched the game sunday night & you know what, I think Ngatta would be a player in any defense. & if you need your defensive tackle to be that unique of a player the cover 2 is doomed for failure. A Tommy Harris or Warren Sapp are few & far between. FU Skeletor & your BS defense.

[Dibs]

Ngata wasn't an option because this team never considered it. Rather, we were led to believe by OBD that he didn't have the requisite skills to succeed in our soon to come horrible defense. (Allowed 140 rypg in 06, 125 rypg in 07) before finally trading for a sizable DT.

I've gotta go but quickly.......we have no DT on the roster of similar size to N'Gata.

Stroud 6'6" 310lbs

N'Gata 6'4" 345lbs

[Dawgg]

I've gotta go but quickly.......we have no DT on the roster of similar size to N'Gata.

Stroud 6'6" 310lbs

N'Gata 6'4" 345lbs

 

Which is evidence enough that the front office's decision making was very flawed from the start. To pass on a blue chip DT for a non-playmaking safety is a bad business move and a worse football move.

 

To trade up for an oft-injured, overrated DT in McCargo is grounds to get fired. Yet every single member of the front office received promotions and raises. It's the fans that are left to suffer

[Bill from NYC]

It's important to admit how many resources this team has poured into the DT position. They signed a moderate FA deal with Tripplett. (5 yrs 18.5M) traded a 2nd and 3rd for McCargo, and used a high 5th on Williams. When none of this worked, the front office was forced to trade for a high dollar player in Stroud (which has been a good deal so far) and gave up a 3rd and 5th. Meanwhile, they signed Spencer Johnson to a 5 yr 17.5M FA contract.

 

All of this for their DT rotation. This team has proven that they over-allocate to cover up for problems they themselves started.

 

What an interesting way to sum things up. Good job! I make the case that they did the exact same thing on the OL.

Let's forget about Ngata for a second.....in 06, they also passed on Mangold and Davin Joseph. One of the picks they traded away could have been used for Jeremy Trueblood, who is far better at RT than Walker and plays for less than 1/2 the price. These excellent players and Ngata were all right there, but Herk and Jerk insisted on Whitner, McCargo, Youboty and Simpson, and it actually cost them a 3rd rounder to come away with this. And BV, for the sake of keeping it real, I readily admit that I didn't want Ngata. It's true, but I was all over the 3 blockers listed above.

 

I was thinking about it, and I can't remember 1 defensive lineman from the Redskin team with the "Hogs," although I'm sure they had good ones. I make the case that their job was made easier because Washington was going to score, and it didn't really matter that much who was at qb either. The team, led by the OL, was strong and dominated the game. The D was able to get aggressive when playing with a lead.

This is what I will never be able to figure out about guys like Marv and Jauron. Why on earth can't they see that the Bills, especially playing in the elements, need solid lines more than small and/or frail defensive backs? I don't know schitt compared to many posters on this board, but I knew then that the 06 draft was flat out wrong for this team.

 

I guess the bottom line is that Ralph thinks that he is saving money by having second rate castoffs run the team. I am thinking that he would have made more if he payed a little more for coaches and execs he would have made it back on playoff appearances, but I know even less about high finance than I do about football.

[bananathumb]

Our best safety is Brian Scott who we picked up off of the street. He makes many more plays than Whitner in run support. As far as in coverage, none of our safeties make any plays. Drafting Whitner and McCargo in the first round was just terrible. That is why we are mediocre to poor every year because we draft players who are mediocre to poor every year. Whitner plays like a late round pick. He has not improved since his rookie year, and he is the smallest safety in the league. The guy looks tiny.

 

 

Correct...aout both Scott (our best player in Toronto on Sunday) and Whitner, who has done nothing since he was starrng on the Jim Rome Show.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

You seem to expect too much from your draft selections. Sure, we would all like impact play-makers......

 

You mean like the guy in Bawlmer that's anchoring a ferocious D-Line?

[R. Rich]

What an interesting way to sum things up. Good job! I make the case that they did the exact same thing on the OL.

Let's forget about Ngata for a second.....in 06, they also passed on Mangold and Davin Joseph. One of the picks they traded away could have been used for Jeremy Trueblood, who is far better at RT than Walker and plays for less than 1/2 the price. These excellent players and Ngata were all right there, but Herk and Jerk insisted on Whitner, McCargo, Youboty and Simpson, and it actually cost them a 3rd rounder to come away with this. And BV, for the sake of keeping it real, I readily admit that I didn't want Ngata. It's true, but I was all over the 3 blockers listed above.

 

Yeah, it would've been nice to snag Trueblood and Joseph. Then again, who's to say they'd be as good here in Buffalo? I can't explain it, but we've seen guys leave the Bills and become productive players (Glenn Parker, Mike Devlin, Tom Nutten). I'm not silly enough to believe in curses, but...

 

I was thinking about it, and I can't remember 1 defensive lineman from the Redskin team with the "Hogs," although I'm sure they had good ones.

 

Former Pro Bowl DE Charles Mann would tend to agree.

 

I make the case that their job was made easier because Washington was going to score, and it didn't really matter that much who was at qb either. The team, led by the OL, was strong and dominated the game. The D was able to get aggressive when playing with a lead.

This is what I will never be able to figure out about guys like Marv and Jauron. Why on earth can't they see that the Bills, especially playing in the elements, need solid lines more than small and/or frail defensive backs? I don't know schitt compared to many posters on this board, but I knew then that the 06 draft was flat out wrong for this team.

 

Considering they had guys like Mann, Dexter Dumba**, Monte Coleman, and Hall of Famer Darrell Green on the defensive side of the ball, I'd hardly say they were feeding off the O line's table scraps.

 

I guess the bottom line is that Ralph thinks that he is saving money by having second rate castoffs run the team. I am thinking that he would have made more if he payed a little more for coaches and execs he would have made it back on playoff appearances, but I know even less about high finance than I do about football.

 

Like you, I don't know the ins and outs of running a football team, William. I do know that this team has, for quite some time, been running in place and gaining no ground through various GM, coaching, and personnel changes. I don't know what's needed to get this franchise on the mend, but I hope someone comes up w/ a plan and soon.

[R. Rich]

You mean like the guy in Bawlmer that's anchoring a ferocious D-Line?

 

 

Man, would Ngata's size and speed do a great job of complimenting the tenacity of Kelsay, Denney, and (when he's healthy) Schobel off the edge.

 

Hey, I was wrong 'bout the kind of impact Ngata would have in the short term. But, his transition couldn't have been hampered too much by playing w/ guys like Trevor Pryce, Kelly Gregg, Terrell Suggs, Bart Scott, Ray Lewis, and Ed Reed, now could it have? Ngata would help, but 'til our defense can have the kind of overall quality of a team like Baltimore, he wouldn't be quite the same player nor would he have quite the same impact.

[Bill from NYC]

Considering they had guys like Mann, Dexter Dumba**, Monte Coleman, and Hall of Famer Darrell Green on the defensive side of the ball, I'd hardly say they were feeding off the O line's table scraps.

 

Those guys were very good. I take nothing away from them, but I am guessing that their jobs were made easier by sitting and resting while the offense drove down the field for 8 minute touchdown scoring drives. Hey, even our defense looks a little better when they play with a lead.

 

I don't disagree with you, but how long has it been since there was a physically dominant Buffalo Bills team? It doesn't make sense.

[Rico]

Herk and Jerk

[R. Rich]

Those guys were very good. I take nothing away from them, but I am guessing that their jobs were made easier by sitting and resting while the offense drove down the field for 8 minute touchdown scoring drives. Hey, even our defense looks a little better when they play with a lead.

 

I don't disagree with you, but how long has it been since there was a physically dominant Buffalo Bills team? It doesn't make sense.

 

Hey rev, you're preaching to the choir again. We've discussed the "good OL (pun intended) days" before. Many times. I'd love to see this team strong up front on both sides of the ball also.

[Dawgg]

Man, would Ngata's size and speed do a great job of complimenting the tenacity of Kelsay, Denney, and (when he's healthy) Schobel off the edge.

 

Hey, I was wrong 'bout the kind of impact Ngata would have in the short term. But, his transition couldn't have been hampered too much by playing w/ guys like Trevor Pryce, Kelly Gregg, Terrell Suggs, Bart Scott, Ray Lewis, and Ed Reed, now could it have? Ngata would help, but 'til our defense can have the kind of overall quality of a team like Baltimore, he wouldn't be quite the same player nor would he have quite the same impact.

 

It all starts up front, Rich. I would argue that with the addition of Ngata, Ray Lewis has seen a quite the rejuvenation in his career. Sure, he plays with a good supporting cast, but he is a very, very disruptive player in his own right. His presence would surely make players like Kelsay and Poz more effective. That's not to say that the Bills D would become as fierce as that of the Ravens, but the impact would be significant. Ngata is the type of impact player you take in the Top 10.

 

Contrast that to Whitner, whose main impact has been his playoff guarantee and Thursday night movie nights at his house...

 

I'll take Ngata