A religion of peace

[Kelly the Dog]

I love the ananolgy. The most critical piece of terrain on the board is the middle east, isn't it?

90192[/snapback]

Very true, if the object of the game is to take over the world, like in Risk! That is the object of the game of Risk! It is not the object of this world we live in, although apparently, many people seem to think that it is.

[_BiB_]

Very true, if the object of the game is to take over the world, like in Risk! That is the object of the game of Risk! It is not the object of this world we live in, although apparently, many people seem to think that it is.

90279[/snapback]

 

Sorry about my spelling of analogy (just trying to pre-empt Darin and Tom).

 

No, you are wrong. The middle east is the key to a global community. Without it, there won't be one. The bad guys are nuts, but not stupid. They realize this.

 

In spite of whatever mistakes were made, and there have been several. There have also been many successes, but you will not hear of them from our media.

 

The condition of what the world will be like 10 years from now is in the balance. That's also what is important. You don't like the process. Sure, everyone wants everything right now. That is our way. We are the ultimate immediate gratification people. We suck, because of it. This election is proof positive. This is probably the most important Presidential election in 50 years. 45-55 percent of our population doesn't like it. Well, start over.

 

You obviously don't understand what is at stake, and how serious it is. That's OK. whatever happens TV will tell you it's OK. You think the economy is bad now? I'm waiting for the Kerry explanation, should he get elected, as to why we have a new cold war with nuclear weapons and oil is at 80 dollars a barrell.

[RuntheDamnBall]

I'm waiting for the Kerry explanation, should he get elected, as to why we have a new cold war with nuclear weapons and oil is at 80 dollars a barrell.

90302[/snapback]

I really don't buy that it will be that much different, but time will tell. It's not as if the oil prices have exactly gone down under Bush, and perhaps that would be the kick in the ass we need to start seriously developing alternatives. Regardless, if a lot of the conservatives on this board had their way we'd be in a very "hot" war with nuclear weapons. I can't think of how many "nuke all the Muslims" posts I've seen on this board.

[_BiB_]

I really don't buy that it will be that much different, but time will tell.  It's not as if the oil prices have exactly gone down under Bush, and perhaps that would be the kick in the ass we need to start seriously developing alternatives.  Regardless, if a lot of the conservatives on this board had their way we'd be in a very "hot" war with nuclear weapons.  I can't think of how many "nuke all the Muslims" posts I've seen on this board.

90607[/snapback]

 

We don't have anywhere near as many as we used to. We can only destroy about half the world now.

[Alaska Darin]

I really don't buy that it will be that much different, but time will tell.  It's not as if the oil prices have exactly gone down under Bush, and perhaps that would be the kick in the ass we need to start seriously developing alternatives.  Regardless, if a lot of the conservatives on this board had their way we'd be in a very "hot" war with nuclear weapons.  I can't think of how many "nuke all the Muslims" posts I've seen on this board.

90607[/snapback]

I think over the long term the high price of oil is a good thing for America and the world. Though it certainly sucks right now...

[Mike in Syracuse]

Algeria Beheadings

88015[/snapback]

 

You need to do some research on the history of Christianity.

[Thurman's Helmet]

You need to do some research on the history of Christianity.

93683[/snapback]

 

 

The key word there is HISTORY. One religion has progressed over the centuries and one hasnt.

[Britbillsfan]

The key word there is HISTORY.    One religion has progressed over the centuries and one hasnt.

93698[/snapback]

Whilst Christianity has certainly progressed in recent times it is not THAT long ago that 'good' Christians were using their religion to defend the indefensible (For example: Apartheid in South Africa was largely based on the major Africaaner church teachings / interpretations of the Bible as much as anything else).

 

Islam is some way to go yet, but a lot of the problems are caused in areas which up until the last half of the 20th century were based on tribal traditions that long re-date Islam, Afghanistan and parts of Pakistan being prime examples of this still continuing. The Turks and Bosnians, in comparison, are pretty much secular on the whole.

 

The other problem is the unholy alliance between govenments with no true popular backing and fundamentalists. One keen to hold onto power, the other to have free reign with their teachings. Saudi Arabia and Pakistan immediately come to mind here.

[Thurman's Helmet]

Whilst Christianity has certainly progressed in recent times it is not THAT long ago that 'good' Christians were using their religion to defend the indefensible (For example: Apartheid in South Africa was largely based on the major Africaaner church teachings / interpretations of the Bible as much as anything else).

 

Islam is some way to go yet, but a lot of the problems are caused in areas which up until the last half of the 20th century were based on tribal traditions that long re-date Islam, Afghanistan and parts of Pakistan being prime examples of this still continuing. The Turks and Bosnians, in comparison, are pretty much secular on the whole.

 

The other problem is the unholy alliance between govenments with no true popular backing and fundamentalists. One keen to hold onto power, the other to have free reign with their teachings. Saudi Arabia and Pakistan immediately come to mind here.

94479[/snapback]

 

Contrary to what people might think, there's no FUN in fundamentalism.

[Mike in Syracuse]

The key word there is HISTORY.    One religion has progressed over the centuries and one hasnt.

93698[/snapback]

 

I guess that depends on how you define progress.

 

 

Maybe some of the more knowledgable folks here can conduct an analysis for us.

 

Which religion is responsible for more deaths, Christianity or Islam?

 

I'd be interested in knowing the answer although I think Christianity wins in a landslide.

[Alaska Darin]

Contrary to what people might think, there's no FUN in fundamentalism.

95259[/snapback]

But you can't have manslaughter without laughter.

[_BiB_]

I guess that depends on how you define progress. 

Maybe some of the more knowledgable folks here can conduct an analysis for us.

 

Which religion is responsible for more deaths, Christianity or Islam?

 

I'd be interested in knowing the answer although I think Christianity wins in a landslide.

95754[/snapback]

 

And how is any of that germane to the situation at hand? Radical Fundamental Islam, through however many declared fatwahs at this point have the announced intention of forming a pan-Islamic Caliphalite. Primary goal one, unseat what they deem the secular/hedonist governments of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, while softening up the rest of the muslim dominated states for eventual succession. A strategic goal is to remove American/western thinking/moderate influence from primarily the middle east, but also from all moderate Islamic states. That is a large part of the present issue and who killed who when doesn't apply to the present situation. The situations and problems are here, regardless of the history. They need to be dealt with. I posted a subscript post to this one earlier today. Some people on the Muslim side are seeing the light.

 

This isn't just a US against UBL fight. Fundamental Islam is fighting amongst themselves for control. UBL is holed up in a cave, and Zarqawi is running wild making claim. that is what we see on a daily basis. The middle east sees a lot more everyday from a lot of players.

 

We have a war to win. Doesn't matter who did what when. Christians killed Christians for centuries. By the millions. Christians seem to get over it. (Until they do it again) Muslims have killed Muslims for centuries, but seem to clearly remember only the Crusades in terms of history.

 

South Africa has little to nothing to do with this. (Can't say the same for the Horn)

[Thurman's Helmet]

And how is any of that germane to the situation at hand? Radical Fundamental Islam, through however many declared fatwahs at this point have the announced intention of forming a pan-Islamic Caliphalite. Primary goal one, unseat what they deem the secular/hedonist governments of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, while softening up the rest of the muslim dominated states for eventual succession. A strategic goal is to remove American/western thinking/moderate influence from primarily the middle east, but also from all moderate Islamic states. That is a large part of the present issue and who killed who when doesn't apply to the present situation. The situations and problems are here, regardless of the history. They need to be dealt with. I posted a subscript post to this one earlier today. Some people on the Muslim side are seeing the light.

 

This isn't just a US against UBL fight. Fundamental Islam is fighting amongst themselves for control. UBL is holed up in a cave, and Zarqawi is running wild making claim. that is what we see on a daily basis. The middle east sees a lot more everyday from a lot of players.

 

We have a war to win. Doesn't matter who did what when. Christians killed Christians for centuries. By the millions. Christians seem to get over it. (Until they do it again) Muslims have killed Muslims for centuries, but seem to clearly remember only the Crusades in terms of history.

 

South Africa has little to nothing to do with this. (Can't say the same for the Horn)

95783[/snapback]

 

"Yeah but Christians killed Muslims in the Crusades!!!!!!!!!"

 

You realize you're talking to a wall right?

[_BiB_]

Of course. That and I said fag.

[pdh1]

I guess that depends on how you define progress. 

Maybe some of the more knowledgable folks here can conduct an analysis for us.

 

Which religion is responsible for more deaths, Christianity or Islam?

 

I'd be interested in knowing the answer although I think Christianity wins in a landslide.

95754[/snapback]

 

 

Don't think so Jerky. Here is a list of PRESENT day conflicts that involve the "religion of peace" Islam: Enjoy!

 

AFGHANISTAN: The war in Afghanistan is ongoing. Since Soviet troops withdrew, various Afghan groups have tried to eliminate their rivals. Although the Taliban strengthened their position in 1998 they have not achieved their final objective. Afghanistan harbours Osama bin Ladin, a wealthy Saudi Arabia dissident responsible for terrorist acts around the world. On 11 September 2001 members from bin Ladin's el Qaeda group highjacked 4 passenger jets in the USA, crashing one into the Pentagon and 2 into the World Trade Center, killing more than 2,000 citizens. The USA and its allies declared war on terrorism and counter-attacked, removing the Taliban from power. The war on terrorism and the el Qaeda continues.

 

ALGERIA:  Armed Islamic groups formed and since 1992 have carried out attacks on key economic points, security forces, officials and foreigners. In 1995 Algeria's first multiparty presidential elections were held and the incumbent president Liamine Zeroual won 60% of the votes in a poll with a 75% turnout. The first multiparty legislative elections were held in June 1997 which were won by the National Democratic Rally, which holds the majority of seats along with the FLN. Although the armed wing of the FIS declared a ceasefire in October 1997, an extremist splinter group, the Islamic Armed Group (GIA), continued attacks. There is also evidence that many attacks are carried out by militias backed by the Algerian security forces. After years of civil strife, Amnesty International estimates that around 80,000 people have died

The Caucasus and Russia: The Central Asian republics have a long history of conflicts. Fighting breaks out regularly between warlords and religious groups calling for the establishment of Islamic states outside the Russian Federation. Russia is trying to hold on to the federation because the Caucasus is a vital supply route for the oil riches of the Caspian and Black Sea. With the break-up of the Soviet Union various groups fought for control in the republics. Conflicts from one republic spills over to the other and they continually blame each other for attacks. Chechnya, still part of Russia, was flung in an almost full-scale war in 1994-96 and, after a disastrous campaign, Russia was forced to re-evaluate its involvement in the area. In August 1999 Russia stepped up security in the Caucasus region as rebels from within Dagestan - a small republic where more than 100 languages are spoken - went on the attack in support of Chechnyan Muslim groups who claim independence from Russia. In September 1999 Russia launched a ground invasion into the area to cut rebels off from Central Asian supply routes. By January 2000 Russia was once again involved in a full scale conflict in Chechnya. The Caucasus issue is complicated by the more than 50 different ethnic groups each insisting to proclaim their religious convictions on the area. The situation holds serious danger for neighbouring countries, Kazakhstan, Georgia and Russia itself.

 

EYGPT: Fundamentalist Muslim rebels seek to topple the secular Egyptian government. At least 1,200 people have perished since the beginning of the rebellion.  The conflict was primarily waged as an urban guerrilla/terrorist war.  The opposition Muslim Brotherhood took part in elections in 2000, indicating that they felt armed force would not work.

 

INDONESIA: The struggle on the Indonesia islands is complicated by leaders of pro- and anti-independence movements, and by religious conflicts. More than 500 churches have been burned down or damaged by Muslims over the past six years. Both the Christians and Muslims blame each other for the violence and attempts at reconciliation made little progress. After a bloody struggle East Timor gained independence in 1999. The hostilities on other islands continue to claim dozens of lives, to such an extent that the break-up of Indonesia seem imminent.

 

INDIA/PAKISTAN: Muslim separatists in the Indian section declared a holy war against the mostly-Hindu India and started attacks in 1989, mainly from Pakistan-occupied section of Kashmir, and from Pakistan and Afghanistan. The conflict continues, with Pakistan also crushing rebellions with brute force in their section.

 

IRAQ: Supports Islamic terrorist acts around the world. Differing culture and religious groups within Iraq continues to clash with Shiite Muslims.

 

ISRAEL:  Within its own borders, Israel continues to battle various Muslim organizations that seek independence for a Palestine state, areas made up of the Gaza strip, West.Bank, and part of Jerusalem. There is heavy international pressure on Israel to recognise a Palestinian state. The area of what today is Palestine was settled by Semitic tribes at a very early date. It was then called Canaan, and controlled by Canaanite tribes for more than 1,000 years. In about 1500 BC Hebrew, or Jewish, tribes began to enter the area. They later came into conflict with a people of Greek origin known as the Philistines. It is from them that the term Palestine is derived.

 

IRAN: After the Iranian Revolution in 1979 toppled the government of the Shah, the Mujahadeen Khalq soon began a bloody guerrilla war against the new Islamic government.  The Mujahadeen are currently based in Iraq and conduct cross-border raids into Iran, as well as conducting urban guerrilla operations in the cities and conducting political assassinations.  Iran occasionally launches raids against Khalq bases in Iraq.

 

KOSOVO: The ethnic Albanian KLA (Kosovo Liberation Army) in this Serbian province fought a guerilla war against Serbia to claim the region. Beginning in February 1999, Albanians were forced out of the province, prompting NATO to attack Serbia. By July 1999 Serb troops were forced out of Kosovo, only to open an avenue for Albanian Kosovars to attack Serb Kosovars. The Albanian Muslims have since burned down dozens of centuries-old Christian churches. In an effort to establish a Greater Albania, Albanian Muslim rebels also launched attacks in Macedonia.

 

NIGERIA: There are violent religious clashes in the city of Kaduna in northern Nigeria beginning February 21 2004 and have continued. Kaduna is the second largest city in the north. The clashes followed a march by tens of thousands of Christians to protest the proposal to introduce Muslim sharia law as the criminal code throughout Kaduna state. Reports speak of rival armed gangs of Christians and Muslims roving the streets. Churches and mosques have been put to the torch. Corpses were seen lying in the streets and people's bodies hanging out of cars and buses, apparently killed while attempting to flee the violence. Local human rights workers said that more than 400 had been killed as a result of the clashes.

 

SUDAN: The largest country in Africa, has been plagued by a succession of unstable civilian and military governments since it gained independence in 1956 from an Anglo-Egyptian condominium. The long-running conflict continues between the Arab Muslim northerners of Sudan, (the base of the government), and the African Christians of the south. In the mid-90s Sudan was home to Osama bin Ladin, the international terrorist responsible for the World Trade Center attack. It is estimated that more than 1,2 million people have been killed in the Sudan war, brining devastation to the Sudanese economy.

 

PHILIPPINES: The Phillipines armed forces, with assistance of US troops, are fighting Moslem rebels - they have been linked to Osama bin Laden's el Qaeda terrorist group - on the southern islands of the country. Muslim rebel groups seek autonomy/independence from the mostly Christian Philippines. One rebel group, the Abu Sayaf Group, is believed linked to Osama bin-Laden's Al-Qaida.  This connection, plus their tactic of kidnapping and beheading Americans, led the United States to send Special Forces to aid the Philippine Army.

[_BiB_]

As was posted to me, you are talking to a wall. Want about 200 more that haven't been published? One-zies and two-zies don't make the mainstream media, unless we did it. My lord! Men were made to wear girls underwear! Heathens, us all! Cut off a few heads.

 

That's Ok, we'll all be brothers in love come Wed.

[Thurman's Helmet]

As was posted to me, you are talking to a wall. Want about 200 more that haven't been published? One-zies and two-zies don't make the mainstream media, unless we did it. My lord! Men were made to wear girls underwear! Heathens, us all! Cut off a few heads.

 

That's Ok, we'll all be brothers in love come Wed.

95980[/snapback]

 

 

By God, there were DOGS and PEOPLE POINTING TO MEN'S GENITALS! Why wont someone think of the children!

 

And dont forget, Christianity had the Crusades dagnabit!!! Those wacky evil Christians, when will they ever learn?

[erynthered]

I didn't figure I'd change any minds by myself, but I'd hoped I'd get some of you to think about it, at least.

 

96010[/snapback]

 

 

Does Ed count?

He'll pull the right lever

[_BiB_]

Does Ed count? 

He'll pull the right lever

96013[/snapback]

 

Yes, Ed counts. Everyone counts. It's their responsibility on the issues I question. From what I've seen here, on this particular subject, we as a whole exibit very little reponsibility to the greatest undertaking of our personal time.

Once again, whatever. What's done is done. I don't personally care if I wake up tomorrow. People for some reason don't believe that.

[Thurman's Helmet]

Yes, Ed counts. Everyone counts. It's their responsibility on the issues I question. From what I've seen here, on this particular subject, we as a whole exibit very little reponsibility to the greatest undertaking of our personal time.

Once again, whatever. What's done is done. I don't personally care if I wake up tomorrow. People for some reason don't believe that.

96020[/snapback]

 

 

I dont know, its going to rain tomorrow. Cant vote in the rain you know.