Dan Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Due to the discussion in another thread, I'm curious what people think. Despite the 6-6 record this year, are the Bills, as a team, better off now than they were 3 years ago? In short, have they progressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2o Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 I think the Bills are better off without him, but I still don't think we've found the right people yet. If Donahoe was that great, he would have a job right now. The draft picks are about on the same scale of hit or miss it seems. The coaching hasn't improved. We still haven't made the playoffs. Uhhhhh, which one did I pick again? Oh, yeah, I selected "Yes" for the simple fact that I like watching Mort get hammered by Boomer when he starts trying to rail the Bills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsPride12 Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 HELL NO... the direction of the team since TD left? I feel like we've been stuck in one big cycle of mediocrity for about a decade now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 These are two distinct issues conflated into one. 1. Are the Bills better now than they were 3 years ago? 2. Was the team on the correct path under Tom Donahoe and should he have been retained? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloWings Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 I voted yes only because of the players on the roster...the coaching hasn't improved at all, which has significantly hurt the results, but I'd like this group of players with a good coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted December 7, 2008 Author Share Posted December 7, 2008 These are two distinct issues conflated into one. 1. Are the Bills better now than they were 3 years ago? 2. Was the team on the correct path under Tom Donahoe and should he have been retained? Let's not attempt to confuse the issue. How are these 2 distinct issues? You stated that you think TD didn't do so bad and in fact "I dare say there is more than a few fans that aren't happy with the direction of this team." I tended to disagree. Hence I made a simple poll, and it would appear your opinion is in the minority. So what are you objecting to? Do you contend that despite being on the correct path with TD, we've still managed to be a better team after his departure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted December 7, 2008 Author Share Posted December 7, 2008 I voted yes only because of the players on the roster...the coaching hasn't improved at all, which has significantly hurt the results, but I'd like this group of players with a good coach. It's hard to argue with that. However, I suspect about week 4 or 5, most people would have felt the coaching staff wasn't even that bad. It's truly amazing how fall the team has fallen since then. I, too, like the collection of players we have for the most part. I've been a little on the fence with Jauron. As this season continues, I am now frolicking in the grass on the Jauron sucks side. However, I'm staying close to the fence. If he can somehow pull his head out of his arse and get some inspired play out of this team over the next 4 weeks, I reserve the right to jump back on the fence. I'm not expecting him to, but I am hopeful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in Anchorage Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 I know for a fact Jauron voted "Unsure. I can't' make up my mind about anything". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Jabber Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Obviously, Polian was our best GM. Even though Butler & Phillips biggest boneheaded move was trading for the one-hit wonder Rob Johnson (and ultimately creating a bad QB controversy), Butler was still a decent GM and we still made the playoffs during his time in Buffalo (even though we didn't win a playoff game). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Let's not attempt to confuse the issue. How are these 2 distinct issues? Are you serious? You can't tell the difference? Your analytic skills are somewhat lacking then. You've posed a false dichotomy. You stated that you think TD didn't do so bad and in fact "I dare say there is more than a few fans that aren't happy with the direction of this team."Well, you are simply wrong on the non-quoted part. And your poll is clearly pulling in the name of Tom Donahoe in order to bias the result. It is the same thing as asking people either (a) can the QB play in the last 2 months improve? versus (b) wouldn't JP Losman be a better QB for this team? Anybody that has watched the games would say "yes" to (a) while most people would say "no" to (b) because few Bills fans think Losman is the answer. The quote itself is pretty simple to parse and the evidence on this board is quite clear. Yes, there are Bills fans that are unhappy with the way this team has been going through this free fall and it is not just a handful. Fans are talking about firing the coach, hiring a GM, getting a new QB, wanting new ownership, not renewing their Sunday Ticket, not buying season tickets, not caring if the team moves, quitting and becoming a fan of another team, etc. Yes, I think that it is patently obvious that many people are not satisfied with a decade of losing. I tended to disagree. Hence I made a simple poll, and it would appear your opinion is in the minority. So what are you objecting to? Do you contend that despite being on the correct path with TD, we've still managed to be a better team after his departure? Bully for you, argumentum ad populum. Most everyone agrees, including me, that Tom Donahoe wasn't the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Are you serious? You can't tell the difference? Your analytic skills are somewhat lacking then. You've posed a false dichotomy. Are the Bills better off than they were three years ago? That should be the central question to this mess, not invoking the TD. If you had told me after 05 they would go 7-9 in 06 and 07, yet only be 6-6 after two seasons of rebuilding while playing a schedule of teams which combined to go 54-90, I wouldn't call that progress. I'd call that mediocrity. But in the simplistic world the poll designer lives in, the Bills are either good or bad. Anyone thinking they're bad doesn't understand because the team is 6-6. Unfortunately, that ignores the opponents, type of wins, and lack of improvement. It conveniently forgets the team has had ample opportunity for success, yet squanders games that a quality team should win. The greatest shortcoming around this board are fans who ignore the rest of the NFL and isolate only on the Bills. If more of them looked league wide at trends, along with improving and worsening teams, they'd realize the Bills should remain in the latter category. It is not normal for a team to consistently ride the .500 line and never get awful or very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marauderswr80 Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 It went nowhere when he was here, and its gone nowhere since he left. Its the same old crap, just different turds trying to run it. So far no good. The ONLY thing thats happen in a good way for the Bills lately was the extension of Evans, but even that will mount to nothing if he dont get some help on the offense. But right now, the organization did nothing with TD and has done nothing since he left........stuck in the mudd I quess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted December 7, 2008 Author Share Posted December 7, 2008 Are you serious? You can't tell the difference? Your analytic skills are somewhat lacking then. You've posed a false dichotomy. Well, you are simply wrong on the non-quoted part. And your poll is clearly pulling in the name of Tom Donahoe in order to bias the result. It is the same thing as asking people either (a) can the QB play in the last 2 months improve? versus (b) wouldn't JP Losman be a better QB for this team? Anybody that has watched the games would say "yes" to (a) while most people would say "no" to (b) because few Bills fans think Losman is the answer. The quote itself is pretty simple to parse and the evidence on this board is quite clear. Yes, there are Bills fans that are unhappy with the way this team has been going through this free fall and it is not just a handful. Fans are talking about firing the coach, hiring a GM, getting a new QB, wanting new ownership, not renewing their Sunday Ticket, not buying season tickets, not caring if the team moves, quitting and becoming a fan of another team, etc. Yes, I think that it is patently obvious that many people are not satisfied with a decade of losing. Bully for you, argumentum ad populum. Most everyone agrees, including me, that Tom Donahoe wasn't the answer. Again you're trying to confuse the situation. How am I so wrong? I stated, "that you think TD didn't do so bad". In response to your statements: "Maybe there is a sense out there that this team is not on the rise, that it is not better than it was under Tom Donahoe. Maybe there is a fear that Mularkey and Mort were spot on -- that the way the Bills front office was reorganized was a recipe for fuggeduptitude and undermined chances of success." "I do. Our fearless moderator, Simon was one who said Ralph was an idiot to get rid of Donahoe and that Donahoe was doing as good a job as he could under the circumstances." Granted, you're referencing Simon here, but it seems as though its an effort to support your belief as well - perhaps I'm wrong. So what am I missing? It seems fairly simple to me, you state maybe there's a sense that the team is not better than it was under TD; as a result, I conclude you don't think TD did such a bad job. Please, explain how I am just simply wrong. In the other thread, we had a discussion going about the general direction this team was going in. You and a few others have suggested that the FO is inept and the team is going nowhere fast. The conversation included much more than just the last few weeks of this season. I suggested the team overall was better off, others suggested it wasn't. Hence, I was curious.. was I actually in the minority opinion? So, I started this silly poll. I included TD in the question, because it was suggested that Marv and now Brandon are failing at running the team. So... do other people think that the Marv/Brandon FOs have turned the team around. I don't see why you're trying to make it more than that. Other than you realize that the majority of posters appear to think that overall the team isn't going into the crapper. Are the Bills better off than they were three years ago? That should be the central question to this mess, not invoking the TD. If you had told me after 05 they would go 7-9 in 06 and 07, yet only be 6-6 after two seasons of rebuilding while playing a schedule of teams which combined to go 54-90, I wouldn't call that progress. I'd call that mediocrity. But in the simplistic world the poll designer lives in, the Bills are either good or bad. Anyone thinking they're bad doesn't understand because the team is 6-6. Unfortunately, that ignores the opponents, type of wins, and lack of improvement. It conveniently forgets the team has had ample opportunity for success, yet squanders games that a quality team should win. The greatest shortcoming around this board are fans who ignore the rest of the NFL and isolate only on the Bills. If more of them looked league wide at trends, along with improving and worsening teams, they'd realize the Bills should remain in the latter category. It is not normal for a team to consistently ride the .500 line and never get awful or very good. Interesting that you accuse me of being simplistic, yet you simplify the progress of this team into a single measure.. their record. I never said the Bills were simply good or bad. I said they were better off than they were 3 years ago, despite the mediocrity of their win/loss record. So how is that simplistic? Would the Bills be a better team if they had a few kicks go their way and were 8-4 right now? Or would they be the same team with a few lucky breaks? Win/loss record, although the most important stat, is by no means the final measure of how good a team is. But right now, the organization did nothing with TD and has done nothing since he left........stuck in the mudd I quess Hard to argue with that. But I do think we're in a better position with the players we currently have. However, they'll continue to be stuck until the coaches either get their heads out of their arses or they get replaced by someone competent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 I am one of the minority, I guess, who would have preferred to see TD stick around another year, as opposed to what we have seen since. At least with TD, the offseasons were exciting, and gave us reason to hope...since he was dumped, the Bills have done little in the offseasons to get me excited, and even less on the field...I won't say Jauron is a worse coach than Gregg Williams or Mike Mularkey, but I think this team should be a lot further ahead in their development than they appear to be. I don't think the Bills are awful, but I don't think they are good either...they are just kind of there...my concern about this current edition of the team is that there isn't one area where I think they are strong, and I think they have married themselves to a lot of players who would be competing for second string jobs on the top 16 teams in the leauge. Of the 22 starters on offense and defense (when they are healthy) there are really only maybe 3 or 4 guys that I think could start for some of the better teams in the leauge...the inability, it seems, to develop players is maddening. To me, the identity of this team has become one of a very fragile, soft team (and that is not aimed at Edwards or Losman) that really can't handle much adversity. And, sadly, their coach doesn't seem to inspire them to be better than the sum of their mediocre parts, only to be as good as you could logically expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JStranger76 Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 I voted yes, the team is better off, but I'm not happy. The direction still doesn't have enough emphasis on the big uglies on both sides of the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poeticlaw Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Due to the discussion in another thread, I'm curious what people think. Despite the 6-6 record this year, are the Bills, as a team, better off now than they were 3 years ago? In short, have they progressed. your poll does not indicate whether they progressed only if we are better off since TD left these are two diffrent scenarios . 1 yes we are better off since TD left. He was no good for the organization he did get us out of so called cap jail and now we are safe from cutting star veterans yet we cannot sign star veterans. 2. We have regressed since TD has left we had a suberbowl contendable team we just didnt have the coaching staff to get us their. Now we dont have the players or the coaching staff to get us there so I do see regression. Plus under TD we had a proven QB in BLEDSOE say what you want but we did now we have too many questions reqading wheter or not we have the riht QB yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albany,n.y. Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Until the team has a real front office, we're going nowhere. How does John Guy keep his job? If Ralph is afraid of firing a minority, can him & hire a more qualified minority-there has to be someone out there who is better. Heck, Allen Wilson couldn't do as bad a job as Guy. Year after year we sign duds as free agents. We have no football guy as GM. Marv wasn't even a normal GM when he was here. We've proven in the past how important it is for a football guy to run things. One bad experience with a power mad Donahoe has driven Ralph back to the dark ages. Was firing Donahoe the right thing-Absolutely! The Gestapo atmosphere at Ralph Wilson Stadium, the bad coaches, and the mediocre record shows he deserved the boot. Not hiring a good football guy with enough control is the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Voted yes...I'm not happy with the current direction obviously but using a luxury pick in the first round (McGahee) and burning two #1's in three years to trade for QB's is just inexcusable when you're trying to rebuild. Despite the record I still have hope for Brandon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 So what am I missing? It seems fairly simple to me, you state maybe there's a sense that the team is not better than it was under TD; as a result, I conclude you don't think TD did such a bad job. Please, explain how I am just simply wrong. Dan, There is a difference between postulating that there may be a certain point of view, and I was hinting that it may not even be a conscious decision really, and actually holding a conviction that that point of view is correct. Understand? I'll spell it out for you slowly. My opinion of Tom Donahoe is the following. He did some things very well and he did some things very poorly when he was Pres./GM in Buffalo. He was human and not hype. In the final balance, I believe he wasn't the answer because some of his mistakes overshadow his successes and I don't subscribe to the visions he explained on team building in the NFL. I can understand, because these processes are never transparent, the POV that Simon and others have presented in the past that TD could've been successful; although, I'm not convinced of that myself, I believe he is. Enjoy the game, dude. Go Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Bills 2005 Roster Bills 2008 Roster Pretty clear that, talent wise, the team is in far better shape, now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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