just watched the debacle on tape after listening to it while ...

[dave mcbride]

A few observations:

 

This was a epically bad Bills loss *because* they so utterly dominated the Niners in a must win game. The Niners are a bad team. They couldn't stop a mediocre Bills offense on 80 yards of the playing field, and their QB was pretty worthless after the first drive. Gore was ineffective, and put the ball on the ground twice.

 

Despite what the naysayers claim, Edwards actually didn't play all that badly. No bad sacks, no near INTs, and while there were a couple of off throws to the TEs, he was mostly on target. It's too bad about the tip on the first pass he threw at the goal line. The TE was wide open, and it would have been a TD if not for the tip. Marshawn dropped an easy first down catch on Edwards. Oh well. Anyway, not great, but hardly a disaster. Basically, a run-of-the-mill substandard half by a pretty good QB. It happens to everyone (see Manning, Payton, yesterday). It's not inconceivable that the Bills could have won if he stayed healthy and played the second half. I wouldn't have bet on it, but still ...

 

So far, James Hardy is a complete and utter dog, and he was at his worst yesterday. He has no explosion, and was easily blanketed by Clements on the deep stuff. He can't get open, and he doesn't even seem to try. On the attempted TD pass to Parrish, I won't even dignify his effort on the fade route he "ran" with the term "lackluster."

 

Roscoe Parrish should be very happy he's paid as well as he is. He's nothing more than a punt returner. He's not that hard to cover, and I worry he'll break in half at some point.

 

JP was his typical self, although he basically took care of the ball. No real passing yardage, and a couple of bad sacks resulting from indecisiveness. Incidentally, he was left high and dry by Schonert on the fourth down play at the seven -- no TEs or receivers ran short routes behind the d-line (a space which was wide open). Instead, it was a slow developing play, with all the receivers running to the wild blue yonder. The seven-man rush easily flustered Losman, and he didn't make a play. If he had another second, Evans was wide open running to the inside of the right pylon. Easy TD. Of course, it wasn't to be because of the play design in that situation. On the second final possession, he looked flustered again on third down. As for the final possession, he was pathetic, although I do realize that the odds were against him. Still, the first two passes were high, wide, and probably too hard. As for the fourth down play, gimme a break. Heave the damn thing to the vicinity of a WR beyond the first down marker; don't dump it off. It'll be interesting to see what sort of demand he generates this offseason. Someone will take him, but he's not a starting NFL QB. His last three performances have been poor - against Jax, against AZ (although he did make a couple of nice passes in that one), and yesterday. He had a golden opportunity yesterday to show he could perform in the clutch, but he simply didn't get it done against a bad defense. One possibility: he could be an ideal backup for Dallas -- they need someone who can heave it. He's basically a second/third rate Romo (arm/mobility), which is what you want for a backup on the Cowboys.

 

The defense played very well after the first drive. I can't fault them for anything. Stroud proved once again that he's the best player on the team.

[Tortured Soul]

So far, James Hardy is a complete and utter dog, and he was at his worst yesterday. He has no explosion, and was easily blanketed by Clements on the deep stuff. He can't get open, and he doesn't even seem to try. On the attempted TD pass to Parrish, I won't even dignify his effort on the corner route he "ran" with the term "lackluster."

He didn't run a corner. He ran a fade - exactly as he was supposed to. You can't tell me the Bills didn't have a better shot throwing to him there instead of trying to force it to Parrish over the middle.

[VOR]

So far, James Hardy is a complete and utter dog, and he was at his worst yesterday. He has no explosion, and was easily blanketed by Clements on the deep stuff. He can't get open, and he doesn't even seem to try. On the attempted TD pass to Parrish, I won't even dignify his effort on the corner route he "ran" with the term "lackluster."

People who were at the game saw Hardy running fast and wide open down the field on several occasions. and Trent ignoring him (and Lee). And Clements is faster than Hardy, a rookie. That could explain him being blanketed. And it was a fade, not a corner route.

 

Roscoe Parrish should be very happy he's paid as well as he is. He's nothing more than a punt returner. He's not that hard to cover, and I worry he'll break in half at some point.

Where Roscoe's (and Rian's, and Brian's) head was yesterday is anyone's guess. Hard to believe Parrish is one of the top punt returners in NFL history after yesterday's performance.

 

JP was his typical self, although he basically took care of the ball. No real passing yardage, and a couple of bad sacks resulting from indecisiveness. Incidentally, he was left high and dry by Schonert on the fourth down play at the seven -- no TEs or receivers ran short routes behind the d-line (a space which was wide open). Instead, it was a slow developing play, with all the receivers running to the wild blue yonder. The seven-man rush easily flustered Losman, and he didn't make a play. If he had another second, Evans was wide open running to the inside of the right pylon. Easy TD. Of course, it wasn't to be because of the play design in that situation. On the second final possession, he looked flustered again on third down. As for the final possession, he was pathetic, although I do realize that the odds were against him. Still, the first two passes were high, wide, and probably too hard. As for the fourth down play, gimme a break. Heave the damn thing to the vicinity of a WR beyond the first down marker; don't dump it off. It'll be interesting to see what sort of demand he generates this offseason. Someone will take him, but he's not a starting NFL QB. His last three performances have been poor - against Jax, against AZ (although he did make a couple of nice passes in that one), and yesterday. He had a golden opportunity yesterday to show he could perform in the clutch, but he simply didn't get it done against a bad defense. One possibility: he could be an ideal backup for Dallas -- they need someone who can heave it. He's basically a second/third rate Romo (arm/mobility), which is what you want for a backup on the Cowboys.

And yet JP's stats were better than Trent's in every category except sacks, and the Bills made 3 trips into the redzone under him, and 1 under Trent. Not in small part to the 49'ers playing the deep ball and opening-up running lanes for Marshawn when JP was in there. But the trips were wasted by Lindell and a failed 4th down try that would have been a FG try had Lindell made the earlier kick. And again, JP hadn't played in over a month and didn't take the starter's reps.

 

The defense played very well after the first drive. I can't fault them for anything. Stroud proved once again that he's the best player on the team.

Agreed.

[dave mcbride]

He didn't run a corner. He ran a fade - exactly as he was supposed to. You can't tell me the Bills didn't have a better shot throwing to him there instead of trying to force it to Parrish over the middle.

Fade - you're right (fixed). If you DVR'ed it, watch it again - slow as molasses, with no seeming effort (presumably because he wasn't the primary receiver). Why would you throw it to Hardy, though? He has proven to be completely undependable this season.

[The Big Cat]

People who were at the game saw Hardy running fast and wide open down the field on several occasions. and Trent ignoring him (and Lee). And Clements is faster than Hardy, a rookie. That could explain him being blanketed. And it was a fade, not a corner route.

 

 

Where Roscoe's (and Rian's, and Brian's) head was yesterday is anyone's guess. Hard to believe Parrish is one of the top punt returners in NFL history after yesterday's performance.

 

 

And yet JP's stats were better than Trent's in every category except sacks, and the Bills made 3 trips into the redzone under him, and 1 under Trent. Not in small part to the 49'ers playing the deep ball and opening-up running lanes for Marshawn when JP was in there. But the trips were wasted by Lindell and a failed 4th down try that would have been a FG try had Lindell made the earlier kick. And again, JP hadn't played in over a month and didn't take the starter's reps.

 

 

Agreed.

 

I can't tell if you're patronizing observers like me or if we have the EXACT same feelings about yesterday's game!

[The Big Cat]

Fade - you're right (fixed). If you DVR'ed it, watch it again - slow as molasses, with no seeming effort (presumably because he wasn't the primary receiver). Why would you throw it to Hardy, though? He has proven to be completely undependable this season.

 

Well, he's 1-1 with a game winning TD running the fade route in the end zone this year, and we've YET to throw it to him on the fly...

 

Sure, he can't run the short ones over the middle yet, but to say he's completely ineffective ignores the fact that he simply hasn't been given the opportunities to make the plays that got him to the NFL in the first place.

[commish95]

A few observations:

 

This was a epically bad Bills loss *because* they so utterly dominated the Niners in a must win game. The Niners are a bad team. They couldn't stop a mediocre Bills offense on 80 yards of the playing field, and their QB was pretty worthless after the first drive. Gore was ineffective, and put the ball on the ground twice.

 

Despite what the naysayers claim, Edwards actually didn't play all that badly. No bad sacks, no near INTs, and while there were a couple of off throw to the TEs, he was mostly on target. It's too bad about the tip on the first pass he threw at the goal line. The TE was wide open, and it would have been a TD if not for the tip. Marshawn dropped an easy first down catch on Edwards. Oh well. Anyway, not great, but hardly a disaster. Basically, a run-of-the-mill substandard half by a pretty good QB. It happens to everyone (see Manning, Payton, yesterday). It's not inconceivable that the Bills could have won if he stayed healthy and played the second half. I wouldn't have bet on it, but still ...

 

So far, James Hardy is a complete and utter dog, and he was at his worst yesterday. He has no explosion, and was easily blanketed by Clements on the deep stuff. He can't get open, and he doesn't even seem to try. On the attempted TD pass to Parrish, I won't even dignify his effort on the fade route he "ran" with the term "lackluster."

 

Roscoe Parrish should be very happy he's paid as well as he is. He's nothing more than a punt returner. He's not that hard to cover, and I worry he'll break in half at some point.

 

JP was his typical self, although he basically took care of the ball. No real passing yardage, and a couple of bad sacks resulting from indecisiveness. Incidentally, he was left high and dry by Schonert on the fourth down play at the seven -- no TEs or receivers ran short routes behind the d-line (a space which was wide open). Instead, it was a slow developing play, with all the receivers running to the wild blue yonder. The seven-man rush easily flustered Losman, and he didn't make a play. If he had another second, Evans was wide open running to the inside of the right pylon. Easy TD. Of course, it wasn't to be because of the play design in that situation. On the second final possession, he looked flustered again on third down. As for the final possession, he was pathetic, although I do realize that the odds were against him. Still, the first two passes were high, wide, and probably too hard. As for the fourth down play, gimme a break. Heave the damn thing to the vicinity of a WR beyond the first down marker; don't dump it off. It'll be interesting to see what sort of demand he generates this offseason. Someone will take him, but he's not a starting NFL QB. His last three performances have been poor - against Jax, against AZ (although he did make a couple of nice passes in that one), and yesterday. He had a golden opportunity yesterday to show he could perform in the clutch, but he simply didn't get it done against a bad defense. One possibility: he could be an ideal backup for Dallas -- they need someone who can heave it. He's basically a second/third rate Romo (arm/mobility), which is what you want for a backup on the Cowboys.

 

The defense played very well after the first drive. I can't fault them for anything. Stroud proved once again that he's the best player on the team.

 

another Hardy bash. Really is he the reason the Bills are and will be under .500. Anyway How can you tell on TV how Hardy did. They did not throw him the ball. This post is complete bogus. Sorry. I tried to watch again to see if I say what you saw and not even close.

[dave mcbride]

And yet JP's stats were better than Trent's in every category except sacks, and the Bills made 3 trips into the redzone under him, and 1 under Trent. Not in small part to the 49'ers playing the deep ball and opening-up running lanes for Marshawn when JP was in there. But the trips were wasted by Lindell and a failed 4th down try that would have been a FG try had Lindell made the earlier kick. And again, JP hadn't played in over a month and didn't take the starter's reps.

 

 

Agreed.

I don't give a damn about his stats, which were basically the same as Edwards. If you really want to compare, Edwards was 10-21 for 112 net passing yards, and Losman completed 11 passes on 20 dropbacks for 83 net passing yards. I'll grant you that Edwards got a bunch of those yards on a garbage time pass to Reed. As for Losman's red zone "drives," he directed one legit drive to the red zone, not three. One occurred only because Lynch had a 50 yard run, and the other only occurred because they started at the 25 of SF. And while they did get into the red zone on that drive, they didn't stay there for long. They ended up at the 22.

[dave mcbride]

Well, he's 1-1 with a game winning TD running the fade route in the end zone this year, and we've YET to throw it to him on the fly...

 

Sure, he can't run the short ones over the middle yet, but to say he's completely ineffective ignores the fact that he simply hasn't been given the opportunities to make the plays that got him to the NFL in the first place.

Look, I want him to be good, but since that Jax play (and I'll confess that I thought he was probably out of bounds), he's shown *nothing* - he gets bad position, isn't fluid, doesn't break off routes, seems clueless out there at times (the Bills burned a TO yesterday trying to get him in the right position) and seems to be easily defensed. I'm not saying he won't improve, but he's not any good this year. I mean, that's pretty obvious, right?

[ieatcrayonz]

I don't give a damn about his stats, which were basically the same as Edwards. If you really want to compare, Edwards was 10-21 for 112 net passing yards, and Losman completed 11 passes on 20 dropbacks for 83 net passing yards. I'll grant you that Edwards got a bunch of those yards on a garbage time pass to Reed. As for Losman's red zone "drives," he directed one legit drive to the red zone, not three. One occurred only because Lynch had a 50 yard run, and the other only occurred because they started at the 25 of SF. And while they did get into the red zone on that drive, they didn't stay there for long. They ended up at the 22.

 

Look, if you say Edwards was just like P. Manning yesterday and they still don't believe you it is pretty useless to argue.

 

If I had realized Edwards is the new Peyton Manning, I wouldn't criticize him for sucking so badly.

[dave mcbride]

Look, if you say Edwards was just like P. Manning yesterday and they still don't believe you it is pretty useless to argue.

 

If I had realized Edwards is the new Peyton Manning, I wouldn't criticize him for sucking so badly.

Please. If you think I'm saying that ... well, I don't know. I'm simply saying that good players (and yes, I think he's pretty good (not great)) have crappy games. And I don't even think he was that horrible yesterday. Geez.

[The Big Cat]

Look, I want him to be good, but since that Jax play (and I'll confess that I thought he was probably out of bounds), he's shown *nothing* - he gets bad position, isn't fluid, doesn't break off routes, seems clueless out there at times (the Bills burned a TO yesterday trying to get him in the right position) and seems to be easily defensed. I'm not saying he won't improve, but he's not any good this year. I mean, that's pretty obvious, right?

 

Oh, dear God it's obvious he's clueless out there- look no further than the playing time and situations 7th round rookie Steve Johnson has been getting by comparison. BUT- in college he ran the fly, and he caught lobs in the endzone from less than 15 yards out. IIRC, we've attempted ONE of the aforementioned plays to him this year and he was successful.

 

I think of the 2005 Steelers. In short yardage situations, red zone or otherwise, they used Bettis to take advantage of his physical tools. Cripes, look at the career of Mike Allstot! Point is, the guy's got height, speed, and the ability to leap, just once, regardless of the coverage, send him deep, chuck it up and see if the kid can make the play.

 

Before watching the game yesterday, I didn't know if the failure to do so was the failure of Trent or the playcalling. Based on what I observed yesterday- consistently- the failure is Trent's, making the original post in this thread obsolete.

[ieatcrayonz]

Please. If you think I'm saying that ... well, I don't know. I'm simply saying that good players (and yes, I think he's pretty good (not great)) have crappy games. And I don't even think he was that horrible yesterday. Geez.

Zero points against one of the NFL's worst defenses is "not that horrible"? Well, I guess he didn't give away points to lose the game against the Jets and Browns. If the damn defense would score more we'd all be able to see Trent's greatness.

 

Do good players have crappy months/years/careers?

[Hossage]

When i watch other NFL teams, I see the logic behind the plays they run. For instance, If they expect cover 2, they send the tight end on a seam as safety bait, let the receiver run a wheel and have someone run a down and out underneath. if everything goes right, someone has to be open.

 

But when I see half of the bills plays i just dont get that they were going for. Edwards goes through his progression, but doesnt seem to have a place where he wants to throw the ball. Often it is because there isnt one that makes sense.

[The Big Cat]

When i watch other NFL teams, I see the logic behind the plays they run. For instance, If they expect cover 2, they send the tight end on a seam as safety bait, let the receiver run a wheel and have someone run a down and out underneath. if everything goes right, someone has to be open.

 

But when I see half of the bills plays i just dont get that they were going for. Edwards goes through his progression, but doesnt seem to have a place where he wants to throw the ball. Often it is because there isnt one that makes sense.

 

He doesn't take chances deep. The chances are there, receivers are running the routes into single coverage, but Trent doesn't take the risk. Have you been to games this year or do you just watch them on TV? I'm not asking sarcastically, I'm really curious if you've seen things differently than I saw them yesterday.

[dave mcbride]

Zero points against one of the NFL's worst defenses is "not that horrible"? Well, I guess he didn't give away points to lose the game against the Jets and Browns. If the damn defense would score more we'd all be able to see Trent's greatness.

 

Do good players have crappy months/years/careers?

Look, we're not going to agree. I get that you think he sucks. I don't think he does.

[Fewell733]

Please. If you think I'm saying that ... well, I don't know. I'm simply saying that good players (and yes, I think he's pretty good (not great)) have crappy games. And I don't even think he was that horrible yesterday. Geez.

 

sometimes I really wonder if a lot of people on here watch any other games but the Bills. Quarterback play in this league is not good. Edwards is probably better than half of the starting qbs in the league. And even the good ones can, and do, play like garbage for weeks at a time.

 

the negativity on this site can be overwhelming after losses. I know we're all disappointed, but it's out of control lately.

 

We're a young, inexperienced team with a major playcalling problem. I know we want playoffs but we're two years from a total rebuild. We may need a new O-coordinator with a whole new system. I think the line has finally come together. Our RB tandem is just about as good as anybodies in the league. Our defense is another pass rusher and some LB and CB depth away from being consistently VERY good.

[dave mcbride]

Oh, dear God it's obvious he's clueless out there- look no further than the playing time and situations 7th round rookie Steve Johnson has been getting by comparison. BUT- in college he ran the fly, and he caught lobs in the endzone from less than 15 yards out. IIRC, we've attempted ONE of the aforementioned plays to him this year and he was successful.

 

I think of the 2005 Steelers. In short yardage situations, red zone or otherwise, they used Bettis to take advantage of his physical tools. Cripes, look at the career of Mike Allstot! Point is, the guy's got height, speed, and the ability to leap, just once, regardless of the coverage, send him deep, chuck it up and see if the kid can make the play.

 

Before watching the game yesterday, I didn't know if the failure to do so was the failure of Trent or the playcalling. Based on what I observed yesterday- consistently- the failure is Trent's, making the original post in this thread obsolete.

 

I know Edwards has flaws, but despite it all and despite 3 rough outings this season (he mostly played OK in the Jets game, and Parrish was by all accounts largely responsible for the INT return for the TD), the offense has been better than any year since 2002 (e.g. rankings in points, yards, yards per play, and QB rating). I'm simply saying he's not that bad, and that he's got some real upside. I certainly wouldn't give up on him yet or say "he sucks!!"

 

Re Hardy, they did try it against St. Louis and in a couple of other games, and he didn't come through. Still, you're right -- if you're going to play him, you should take advantage of his so-far limited talents and try and get him involved. Otherwise, he's useless.

[The Big Cat]

sometimes I really wonder if a lot of people on here watch any other games but the Bills. Quarterback play in this league is not good. Edwards is probably better than half of the starting qbs in the league. And even the good ones can, and do, play like garbage for weeks at a time.

 

the negativity on this site can be overwhelming after losses. I know we're all disappointed, but it's out of control lately.

 

We're a young, inexperienced team with a major playcalling problem. I know we want playoffs but we're two years from a total rebuild. We may need a new O-coordinator with a whole new system. I think the line has finally come together. Our RB tandem is just about as good as anybodies in the league. Our defense is another pass rusher and some LB and CB depth away from being consistently VERY good.

 

watching other teams play, I completely disagree with the first part of your post. Sure, Trent can manage a game a find the short guy all day, but right now I'm watching two QB's who drop, and without hesitation put one up "deep" (more than 10 yards past the LOS). That is a HUGE portion of Trent's game which is completely missing, and it's gotten to the point where our opponents are totally comfortable giving up the long ball and can shut everything else down. Not only does not having this pass in his arsenal render Trent an incomplete QB, but it's made him one dimensional to the point where he's very, very easy to defend.

[Fewell733]

watching other teams play, I completely disagree with the first part of your post. Sure, Trent can manage a game a find the short guy all day, but right now I'm watching two QB's who drop, and without hesitation put one up "deep" (more than 10 yards past the LOS). That is a HUGE portion of Trent's game which is completely missing, and it's gotten to the point where our opponents are totally comfortable giving up the long ball and can shut everything else down. Not only does not having this pass in his arsenal render Trent an incomplete QB, but it's made him one dimensional to the point where he's very, very easy to defend.

 

I agree that he's got an issue right now, I just believe that it's correctable.