Pledge Controversy

[Johnny Coli]

I thought the idea was to inspire patriotism...in which case it seems spot-on to me.

Why not recite parts of the US Constitution, then? I don't think for one second that kids feel all warm inside for their country by being forced to recite a bunch of words as if in a trance to start the school day.

[DC Tom]

Why not recite parts of the US Constitution, then? I don't think for one second that kids feel all warm inside for their country by being forced to recite a bunch of words as if in a trance to start the school day.

 

Here's a crazy idea: pretend - just pretend, for a minute - that I'm a cynic, then think about my earlier post for a minute.

 

 

[RkFast]

Wow, are you out of touch. Where do you find quotas anymore?

 

Pretty much every major corporation forces them on their vendors. I know...Im subject to them. I dont hire at least 10% of my suppliers for what my client calls a "diverse vendor", Im automatically removed from their preferred vendor pool. We are on an NFL board, right? Ever hear of the NFL "minority coaching policy."? We see time and time again an analysis of "ratios" and the percentage of diversity in a given field and if it doesnt meet some imaginary number, than whammo....that business.group.institution is criticises for their "lack of diversity."

 

Quotas were, for the most part, a necessary evil, and one of the few ways to get those who control hiring, and entrance, to actually allow minorities into their all-white fields and institutions. For the most part, quotas have given way to affirmative action, which requires those gatekeepers to actively recruit and consider those traditionally underrepresented in the workplace/schools/etc. While some don't like the concept of affirmative action for minorities, it is still necessary to combat the affirmative action the upper classes already enjoy, IMO.

 

And those same quotas havwe also compromised the talent pool just so the "numbers are met." which is what makes AA programs and forced diversity so evil in my book. Hire on merit. Period. Thats MY "IMO."

 

Slowly, as the diversity that exists in our culture is apparent in the workforce, management, ownership, student bodies, faculty and administration, government, etc, then official "affirmative action" will have less impact, and be less of an issue. But, if you are suggesting that those in power (White Christian's of European descent) are just going to naturally accept the diversity and share the fruits gained, in large part, at the expense of those minorities, then you are naive. Unfortunately, those with the power don't want to share it, and complain loudly when any of it is taken, or acquired, by others outside of their circle.

 

The example I gave above...my client? Run by ultra rich WHITE MEN. Many companies and other organizations running the diversity programs and enforcing them are also run by these same folks. Voluntarily.

 

The fact that White people complain that they didn't get a job because a less-qualified minority got it instead, or Christians complain that the city won't allow their religious accouterments to occupy public land, is laughable to me. For many many years, minorities weren't even considered for jobs, regardless of their qualifications?

 

Thats right. Lets keep class/race warfare alive and well for some kind of half assed game of "catch up" or to "get revenge." Whats next? Reparations?

 

Did cities support the religious celebrations of Jews and Muslims with public money and land? Yes, the people who have been in power, for all these years, might feel a little pain when, long overdue mind you, the pendulum swings the other way, a tad. Sorry if I don't weep for you.

 

Are there even minorities in some of these locations and industries that can even FILL those jobs? To spend money on these holiday displays? Or do you plan to "force" minorities to take them? Maybe bus them in? How about this? You hire the best vendor or candidate based on merit. You spend money on the holiday displays based on what kind of people live in your area.

 

And....I just hired an AA assistant. Becuase she was the best qualified.

 

Imagine that.

[The Dean]

Pretty much every major corporation forces them on their vendors. I know...Im subject to them. I dont hire at least 10% of my suppliers for what my client calls a "diverse vendor", Im automatically removed from their preferred vendor pool. We are on an NFL board, right? Ever hear of the NFL "minority coaching policy."? We see time and time again an analysis of "ratios" and the percentage of diversity in a given field and if it doesnt meet some imaginary number, than whammo....that business.group.institution is criticises for their "lack of diversity."

 

 

 

And those same quotas havwe also compromised the talent pool just so the "numbers are met." which is what makes AA programs and forced diversity so evil in my book. Hire on merit. Period. Thats MY "IMO."

 

 

 

The example I gave above...my client? Run by ultra rich WHITE MEN. Many companies and other organizations running the diversity programs and enforcing them are also run by these same folks. Voluntarily.

 

 

 

Thats right. Lets keep class/race warfare alive and well for some kind of half assed game of "catch up" or to "get revenge." Whats next? Reparations?

 

 

 

Are there even minorities in some of these locations and industries that can even FILL those jobs? To spend money on these holiday displays? Or do you plan to "force" minorities to take them? Maybe bus them in? How about this? You hire the best vendor or candidate based on merit. You spend money on the holiday displays based on what kind of people live in your area.

 

And....I just hired an AA assistant. Becuase she was the best qualified.

 

Imagine that.

 

 

I'm not sure where to start. As I noted earlier, there simply aren't many quotas around, anymore. The NFL policy on hiring coaches is NOT quota based.

 

It sounds like, you have a very soft quota to work with, that is CLIENT driven, not mandated by govt. I say "soft" because if you are grumbling about finding 10% of your vendors that are minority owned, when minorities constitute somewhere around 30% of the population. Add to that, most minority Vendor rules include businesses owned by women, and I have to laugh that you think having to hire only 10% of vendors owned by this segment of the public translates to your problem.

 

Likewise, your AA hiring requirements are a company policy. You have either a good forward thinking company, that understands diversity is a qualification, as it brings value to the workforce that used to be overlooked...or they are worried about how they look to vendors, customers. gov't, etc.

 

"Only hire the most qualified person, regardless of race, or other considerations" is a flawed policy, when applicants start out on a horribly uneven starting place. It almost invariably leads to the status quo, in terms of diversity. This is how racism, built into a system, can continue despite the people in the system claiming to have no racists beliefs. It is a Utopian dream, to be sure, and an ideal to aspire to. Right now, unfortunately, reality makes that ideal sound like a fairy tale. However, years of AA have made it seem more and more possible.

 

Make no mistake about it, AA is a catchup game, and it is the only way any real progress can be made, as another kind of AA helps the powerful stay powerful. When good schools no longer use Legacy in their admission, when heads of companies no longer hire their sons, daughters, nieces and nephews straight into VP jobs, and when people don't hire the boy down the street because they "know his parents and they are good people", then we can talk about getting rid of AA for those who don't benefit much from the sort of AA I just described. But, I agree that AA shouldn't be used as punishment, or revenge...and I don't think it is.

 

Finally, why would you call a well qualified assistant, an AA hire? Did you find her using the AA program? If so, you should be happy that program helped you identify the most qualified candidate. If she is simply a member of a minority, that you found using your normal methods, why would you label her an AA hire?

[elegantelliotoffen]

I thought the idea was to inspire patriotism...in which case it seems spot-on to me.

 

I love how the right wingers have reduced patriotism to just reciting things and wearing flag pins.

[RkFast]

I'm not sure where to start. As I noted earlier, there simply aren't many quotas around, anymore. The NFL policy on hiring coaches is NOT quota based.

 

It sounds like, you have a very soft quota to work with, that is CLIENT driven, not mandated by govt. I say "soft" because if you are grumbling about finding 10% of your vendors that are minority owned, when minorities constitute somewhere around 30% of the population. Add to that, most minority Vendor rules include businesses owned by women, and I have to laugh that you think having to hire only 10% of vendors owned by this segment of the public translates to your problem.

 

Likewise, your AA hiring requirements are a company policy. You have either a good forward thinking company, that understands diversity is a qualification, as it brings value to the workforce that used to be overlooked...or they are worried about how they look to vendors, customers. gov't, etc.

 

"Only hire the most qualified person, regardless of race, or other considerations" is a flawed policy, when applicants start out on a horribly uneven starting place. It almost invariably leads to the status quo, in terms of diversity. This is how racism, built into a system, can continue despite the people in the system claiming to have no racists beliefs. It is a Utopian dream, to be sure, and an ideal to aspire to. Right now, unfortunately, reality makes that ideal sound like a fairy tale. However, years of AA have made it seem more and more possible.

 

Make no mistake about it, AA is a catchup game, and it is the only way any real progress can be made, as another kind of AA helps the powerful stay powerful. When good schools no longer use Legacy in their admission, when heads of companies no longer hire their sons, daughters, nieces and nephews straight into VP jobs, and when people don't hire the boy down the street because they "know his parents and they are good people", then we can talk about getting rid of AA for those who don't benefit much from the sort of AA I just described. But, I agree that AA shouldn't be used as punishment, or revenge...and I don't think it is.

 

Finally, why would you call a well qualified assistant, an AA hire? Did you find her using the AA program? If so, you should be happy that program helped you identify the most qualified candidate. If she is simply a member of a minority, that you found using your normal methods, why would you label her an AA hire?

 

By AA I meant African American, not Affirmative Action.

 

I thought a bit about this over some dim sum tonight. I think for me it comes down to this....the CONCEPT of "diversity" is a very noble worthwhile endeavor. However, IMHO, the way its being carried out is completely !@#$ed up.

[outsidethebox]

I love how the right wingers have reduced patriotism to just reciting things and wearing flag pins.

What do you consider patriotism?

 

Dean, do you consider the American flag just a piece of cloth?

[The Dean]

By AA I meant African American, not Affirmative Action.

 

I thought a bit about this over some dim sum tonight. I think for me it comes down to this....the CONCEPT of "diversity" is a very noble worthwhile endeavor. However, IMHO, the way its being carried out is completely !@#$ed up.

 

 

Thank you for the AA clarification.

 

I'm not entirely sold on the way diversity is being accomplished, either. But, the mess that needed to be corrected called for some drastic action, IMO. There is little doubt, IMO, that some good people were hurt in the process of making mainstream society more diverse and accessible. But, there is no doubt, again IMO, that there was even more pain and injustice in keeping the old system status quo.

 

As is usual, in my experience, when a big change occurs, it often overshoots/overcorrects a problem, or the approach to the correction is harsh and unjust. Then, the changes slowly recede to a more reasonable level. I think we are past the hardest part, with schools and most employers no longer stuck with hard quotas. Clearly the system isn't perfect yet, for anybody really...and it never will be. When everyone has a reason to B word about how the game works, and those complaints are mostly based in the difference in skin color, religion, sex, nationality, sexual preference, etc...then we will know that things are about right. People across all these lines can get screwed for the good old fashioned reasons that we are used to.

 

There are some who will be quick to point out the problems that have been created by the diversification of our society. It's true, some new problems are created, or exacerbated. But, I don't think anyone suggested that having a more open and diverse culture would make it problem free. But, problems don't indicate that the goal, or the process, is a bad one. There will always be problems.

[/dev/null]

By AA I meant African American, not Affirmative Action.

 

I thought meant batteries or alchoholics

[The Dean]

What do you consider patriotism?

 

Dean, do you consider the American flag just a piece of cloth?

 

 

Let's be clear, the American Flag (and every other flag) IS just a piece of cloth. In the case of the USA Flag, it is piece of cloth that we revere because of what it represents. THAT'S what is special...the ideas behind the flag, not the cloth, itself. Unfortunately, reverence to the flag has been dumbed-down so much, that many are more concerned about defending that piece of cloth, than they are the ideas it represents.

 

To me, a patriot loves this country for what it offers, and works for the values it insists on: the liberty to disagree, to dissent, to be INDIVIDUALS united together to protect the ability to exchange in the free market of ideas (as an example of one, among many other freedoms and ideals). An attempt to brain wash the young into a group-think mentality about what words to say, to express their patriotism, seems like the exact opposite of what a patriot would do, IMO.

 

One of the most patriotic groups in the country, is also one of the most reviled. The American Civil Liberties Union is an extremely patriotic organization. It exists to assure that the free exchange of ideas is alive and well, in the USA. It exists to make sure the weakest, and least able, as well as the least popular and most hated, have a voice, and a defense. Its existence cuts to the very bone of what this country is about. Take this example from their website:

The mission of the ACLU is to preserve all of these protections and guarantees:

 

* Your First Amendment rights - freedom of speech, association and assembly; freedom of the press, and freedom of religion.

* Your right to equal protection under the law - equal treatment regardless of race, sex, religion or national origin.

* Your right to due process - fair treatment by the government whenever the loss of your liberty or property is at stake.

* Your right to privacy - freedom from unwarranted government intrusion into your personal and private affairs.

 

We work also to extend rights to segments of our population that have traditionally been denied their rights, including Native Americans and other people of color; lesbians, gay men, bisexuals and transgender people; women; mental-health patients; prisoners; people with disabilities; and the poor.

 

If the rights of society's most vulnerable members are denied, everybody's rights are imperiled.

 

http://www.aclu.org/about/index.html

 

Yet, if you listen to many of the self-proclaimed "Patriots" who clog our radio airwaves, the ACLU is anti-American. Poppycock! The ACLU is doing the dirty work that others refuse to do. The ACLU helps ensure that the ideas behind the American Flag are alive and well. You don't have to like their stance on many positions, or who they choose to defend...I certainly don't. But, I'm sure glad they are doing it, because somebody HAS to, in order for this grand experiment to work.

 

What's my idea of patriotism? Fighting for the right for someone you totally disagree with to be heard. Giving your best to provide a defense for someone you abhor, because the Constitution guarantees it! Stuff like that, I find to be very patriotic.

[The Dean]

And, to add to my last response, I think most of those who serve the country, are patriotic. Those in the military (obviously), govt (as long as they really work for the public good), judges, prosecutors, public defenders, social service workers, cops, firefighters, teachers...these people are (some of the) the personnel infrastructure of what makes this country work.

 

DMV? Not so much. (kidding)

[SDS]

and coincidentally, my new Cub Scout, for the 1st time, led his den tonight in reciting the Pledge of Allegiance and the Cub Scout Promise. He promised to do his best to perform his duty to God and his country, as well as helping other people. His face was beaming with pride, his salute was crisp, and he received the praise of the attending parents and den leader for a job well done.

 

Yeah, what I witnessed tonight was just a travesty.

[The Dean]

Yeah, what I witnessed tonight was just a travesty.

 

 

Why?

[justnzane]

Wow, I have to force a couple of my kids in my class to even stand for the pledge. For some reason, a couple of the black kids feel they should not have to honor their country. As this country does not represent them, even after the Obama election. The climate of where I am at, a lot of the black kids accuse racism on white teachers. Fortunately for me I am teaching all remedial classes, where I deal with the highest quality of students

[DC Tom]

I love how the right wingers have reduced patriotism to just reciting things and wearing flag pins.

 

You're truly a dipshit. I was making the cynical observation that patriotism as mindless devotion to one's country is perfectly instilled by the mindless repetition of promises of allegiance.

 

Only you could confuse impugning blind patriotism with supporting it.

[SDS]

I was making the cynical observation that patriotism as mindless devotion to one's country is perfectly instilled by the mindless repetition of promises of allegiance.

 

 

We are still talking about 7 year olds - right?

[The Dean]

Wow, I have to force a couple of my kids in my class to even stand for the pledge. For some reason, a couple of the black kids feel they should not have to honor their country. As this country does not represent them, even after the Obama election. The climate of where I am at, a lot of the black kids accuse racism on white teachers. Fortunately for me I am teaching all remedial classes, where I deal with the highest quality of students

 

 

I guess I would say that, even if you get those kids to stand, they aren't honoring their country. If I had to venture a guess (and I do), I suspect some of the students who do stand aren't honoring their country, either...they're just standing up because they are supposed to.

[The Dean]

We are still talking about 7 year olds - right?

 

 

Are you suggesting the repetition of The Pledge by most 7 year old kids, is well thought-out, and heart felt?

[SDS]

Are you suggesting the repetition of The Pledge by most 7 year old kids, is well thought-out, and heart felt?

 

 

I need to to go to bed before I really start to lay into some people here...

 

Do you think that the repetition of such phrases of polite society, such as "please, thank you, and excuse me" by most 7 year olds are well thought-out and heart felt?

 

Seriously, WTF is wrong with you?

[The Dean]

I need to to go to bed before I really start to lay into some people here...

 

Do you think that the repetition of such phrases of polite society, such as "please, thank you, and excuse me" by most 7 year olds are well thought-out and heart felt?

 

Seriously, WTF is wrong with you?

 

 

Well, yes, I believe a 7 year old understands "please" and "thank you", but we call them polite even if they say it before they know what it is. They aren't being polite, if they don't know what it means, they are simply following instructions and pleasing their parents...they are "acting" polite. Quite a difference, IMO.