Fewell733 Posted November 28, 2008 Posted November 28, 2008 almost certainly the last we'll see of McCargo as a Bill and the beginning of the Stupar era of dominance at tight end.
Dawgg Posted November 28, 2008 Posted November 28, 2008 almost certainly the last we'll see of McCargo as a Bill and the beginning of the Stupar era of dominance at tight end. Yet another one of Marv's boneheaded moves as GM. 1. Trading a 2nd and 3rd to grab Jon McCargo in the first round 2. Overpaying for Derrick Dockery 3. Re-signing Chris Kelsay to a big contract 4. Signing Robert Royal as a free agent 5. Awarding Schobel with a lucrative extension with 3 years remaining on his deal 6. Signing a washed up Peerless Price to a multi-year deal. 7. Passing on Ngata to take Whitner Thank goodness he listened to Bill Walsh and chose Trent Edwards, who I feel will develop into a good QB for many years to come.
Pete Posted November 28, 2008 Posted November 28, 2008 why would we place McCargo on the IR instead of cutting him? There might be cap ramifications, but if we place him on IR my guess is we want him back next year
BillsWatch Posted November 28, 2008 Posted November 28, 2008 why would we place McCargo on the IR instead of cutting him? There might be cap ramifications, but if we place him on IR my guess is we want him back next year Cutting a player with injury is not allowed. Injury settlement or IR are only choices. Putting him on IR also prevents other teams from signing him.
BillsVet Posted November 28, 2008 Posted November 28, 2008 Yet another one of Marv's boneheaded moves as GM. 1. Trading a 2nd and 3rd to grab Jon McCargo in the first round 2. Overpaying for Derrick Dockery 3. Re-signing Chris Kelsay to a big contract 4. Signing Robert Royal as a free agent 5. Awarding Schobel with a lucrative extension with 3 years remaining on his deal 6. Signing a washed up Peerless Price to a multi-year deal. 7. Passing on Ngata to take Whitner Thank goodness he listened to Bill Walsh and chose Trent Edwards, who I feel will develop into a good QB for many years to come. How about the other 2006 UFAs: Larry Tripplett (5 yrs 18.5M) Melvin Fowler (3 yrs 7M) Tutan Reyes (2 yrs 5M) Matt Bowen, Kiwaukee Thomas, Anthony Thomas, Andre Davis, and Craig Nall. I sincerely believe that DJ guided Marv more than many around here realize. Because Marv had only recently re-entered the NFL after nine seasons away, he had to have relied on DJ. Dawgg, I agree that Edwards will become a solid if not excellent starting NFL QB. But whiffing in the 2006 FA, overpaying Dockery, Walker, Kelsay, and Schobel will hamstring this organization for a long time.
Cynical Posted November 28, 2008 Posted November 28, 2008 Yet another one of Marv's boneheaded moves as GM. 1. Trading a 2nd and 3rd to grab Jon McCargo in the first round 2. Overpaying for Derrick Dockery 3. Re-signing Chris Kelsay to a big contract 4. Signing Robert Royal as a free agent 5. Awarding Schobel with a lucrative extension with 3 years remaining on his deal 6. Signing a washed up Peerless Price to a multi-year deal. 7. Passing on Ngata to take Whitner Thank goodness he listened to Bill Walsh and chose Trent Edwards, who I feel will develop into a good QB for many years to come. Insert another #1, and move everything down one: 1. Choosing Jauron as HC.
Fewell733 Posted November 28, 2008 Author Posted November 28, 2008 How about the other 2006 UFAs: Larry Tripplett (5 yrs 18.5M) Melvin Fowler (3 yrs 7M) Tutan Reyes (2 yrs 5M) Matt Bowen, Kiwaukee Thomas, Anthony Thomas, Andre Davis, and Craig Nall. I sincerely believe that DJ guided Marv more than many around here realize. Because Marv had only recently re-entered the NFL after nine seasons away, he had to have relied on DJ. Dawgg, I agree that Edwards will become a solid if not excellent starting NFL QB. But whiffing in the 2006 FA, overpaying Dockery, Walker, Kelsay, and Schobel will hamstring this organization for a long time. I would say that Kiwaukee and Anthony Thomas played well for us. Can't argue for the rest.
BillsVet Posted November 28, 2008 Posted November 28, 2008 I would say that Kiwaukee and Anthony Thomas played well for us. Can't argue for the rest. They were low priced depth acquisitions. The others like Tripplett, P. Price, Fowler, and Royal were not intended to be that, and two of those guys are out of the NFL, one cannot start anymore, and Royal is what he is-a blocking TE.
drnykterstein Posted November 28, 2008 Posted November 28, 2008 Yet another one of Marv's boneheaded moves as GM. 2. Overpaying for Derrick Dockery 4. Signing Robert Royal as a free agent 5. Awarding Schobel with a lucrative extension with 3 years remaining on his deal 7. Passing on Ngata to take Whitner Funny, I think they were great moves.
drnykterstein Posted November 28, 2008 Posted November 28, 2008 why would we place McCargo on the IR instead of cutting him? There might be cap ramifications, but if we place him on IR my guess is we want him back next year So other teams can't have him.
Dawgg Posted November 28, 2008 Posted November 28, 2008 Dawgg, I agree that Edwards will become a solid if not excellent starting NFL QB. But whiffing in the 2006 FA, overpaying Dockery, Walker, Kelsay, and Schobel will hamstring this organization for a long time. Thanks BV! I've updated the list and also attempted to order the level of stupidity demonstrated in each of these moves (Top of the list indicate the worst moves). It's amazing how Donahoe gets a lot of flack around here considering Marv really sh-- the bed on this draft. To me, these draft decisions have Modrak written all over them. There is just no accountability in this organization whatsoever. 1. Trading a 2nd and 3rd to grab Jon McCargo in the first round 2. Overpaying for Derrick Dockery 3. Passing on Ngata to take Whitner 4. Re-signing Chris Kelsay to a big contract 5. Signing Tripplett to a big free agent deal. 6. Signing Robert Royal as a free agent 7. Awarding Schobel with a lucrative extension with 3 years remaining on his deal. 8. Signing a washed up Peerless Price to a multi-year deal.
mannc Posted November 28, 2008 Posted November 28, 2008 Yet another one of Marv's boneheaded moves as GM. 1. Trading a 2nd and 3rd to grab Jon McCargo in the first round 2. Overpaying for Derrick Dockery 3. Re-signing Chris Kelsay to a big contract 4. Signing Robert Royal as a free agent 5. Awarding Schobel with a lucrative extension with 3 years remaining on his deal 6. Signing a washed up Peerless Price to a multi-year deal. 7. Passing on Ngata to take Whitner Thank goodness he listened to Bill Walsh and chose Trent Edwards, who I feel will develop into a good QB for many years to come. Looks like a pretty solid indictment, to me. I would add a few others, though: Hiring DJ, drafting RB Anthony Wright (or whatever his name was, from Fresno State) in the fourth round instead of building O-line depth, and trading up to draft Poz (even though he seems to have turned out to be a pretty good player) instead of sitting tight, taking David Harris and using the extra pick to draft another lineman. (If I ran an NFL team, trading up in the draft would constitute grounds for immediate termination of my GM. It almost never works out well.)
WellDressed Posted November 28, 2008 Posted November 28, 2008 How about the other 2006 UFAs: Larry Tripplett (5 yrs 18.5M) Melvin Fowler (3 yrs 7M) Tutan Reyes (2 yrs 5M) Matt Bowen, Kiwaukee Thomas, Anthony Thomas, Andre Davis, and Craig Nall. I sincerely believe that DJ guided Marv more than many around here realize. Because Marv had only recently re-entered the NFL after nine seasons away, he had to have relied on DJ. Dawgg, I agree that Edwards will become a solid if not excellent starting NFL QB. But whiffing in the 2006 FA, overpaying Dockery, Walker, Kelsay, and Schobel will hamstring this organization for a long time.
Dawgg Posted November 28, 2008 Posted November 28, 2008 Insert another #1, and move everything down one: 1. Choosing Jauron as HC. I'm not as down on Jauron as most are here. Yeah, the Bills could use a better head coach but the crux of the problem here is and always has been personnel. A good head coach might be able to eek out an extra win with this group, but not much more. If the team spent its money wisely and drafted for value the past few years, we might be hailing DJ as a great coach.
WellDressed Posted November 28, 2008 Posted November 28, 2008 How about the other 2006 UFAs: Larry Tripplett (5 yrs 18.5M) Melvin Fowler (3 yrs 7M) Tutan Reyes (2 yrs 5M) Matt Bowen, Kiwaukee Thomas, Anthony Thomas, Andre Davis, and Craig Nall. I sincerely believe that DJ guided Marv more than many around here realize. Because Marv had only recently re-entered the NFL after nine seasons away, he had to have relied on DJ. Dawgg, I agree that Edwards will become a solid if not excellent starting NFL QB. But whiffing in the 2006 FA, overpaying Dockery, Walker, Kelsay, and Schobel will hamstring this organization for a long time. Those FA Acquisitions come from John Guy who is responsible for pro player personnel.
BillsVet Posted November 28, 2008 Posted November 28, 2008 Thanks BV! I've updated the list and also attempted to order the level of stupidity demonstrated in each of these moves (Top of the list indicate the worst moves). It's amazing how Donahoe gets a lot of flack around here considering Marv really sh-- the bed on this draft. To me, these draft decisions have Modrak written all over them. There is just no accountability in this organization whatsoever. 1. Trading a 2nd and 3rd to grab Jon McCargo in the first round 2. Overpaying for Derrick Dockery 3. Passing on Ngata to take Whitner 4. Re-signing Chris Kelsay to a big contract 5. Signing Tripplett to a big free agent deal. 6. Signing Robert Royal as a free agent 7. Awarding Schobel with a lucrative extension with 3 years remaining on his deal. 8. Signing a washed up Peerless Price to a multi-year deal. You just can't criticize Marv with some people. He's reached sainthood because he was HC during the glory years. But his hiring as GM was not the right long term move. It was strictly a PR thing that Ralph figured would get fans into the seats and help them forget TD. After three drafts, three free agency periods, and 43 games, this team isn't much better than the one that hit the field in early 2006. They can't beat good teams, and are staring nine consecutive seasons without the playoffs dead in the face. Any team's first priority should be winning their division. While Buffalo was promoting Guy, Modrak, Overdorf, and Brandon, Miami hired Parcells, the Jets made big but good moves with Jenkins and Favre. Even NE has recovered somewhat when Brady went down. Their combination of Pioli and Belichick is very strong. Buffalo has the weakest front office in the AFC East, and the result is consistently underwhelming. Those moves you outlined are the ones that drag a franchise down. Cynical is right, the hiring of DJ should trump any other move though.
Dawgg Posted November 28, 2008 Posted November 28, 2008 Trading up to draft Poz (even though he seems to have turned out to be a pretty good player) instead of sitting tight, taking David Harris and using the extra pick to draft another lineman. (If I ran an NFL team, trading up in the draft would constitute grounds for immediate termination of my GM. It almost never works out well.) This I definitely agree with. The Bills overpaid BIGTIME in this trade. They gave up a high 3rd round pick just to move up 9 slots in the second round. Way too expensive when they could have had David Harris fall right into their lap in the event Poz was taken. It's funny you mention the trade-up thing.. you couldn't be more correct. In 2006, Marv moved up to take McCargo -- dumb move then, dumb move now. In 2007, Marv moved up to take Poz -- good player but the Bills overpaid bigtime. In 2008, the NY media reported that the Bills tried unsuccessfully to trade back into the first round with the Giants!!!! They were probably targeting James Hardy. When you don't value draft picks and you're willing to just trade them away, it shows in the product on the field.
BADOLBILZ Posted November 28, 2008 Posted November 28, 2008 How about the other 2006 UFAs: Larry Tripplett (5 yrs 18.5M) Melvin Fowler (3 yrs 7M) Tutan Reyes (2 yrs 5M) Matt Bowen, Kiwaukee Thomas, Anthony Thomas, Andre Davis, and Craig Nall. I sincerely believe that DJ guided Marv more than many around here realize. Because Marv had only recently re-entered the NFL after nine seasons away, he had to have relied on DJ. Dawgg, I agree that Edwards will become a solid if not excellent starting NFL QB. But whiffing in the 2006 FA, overpaying Dockery, Walker, Kelsay, and Schobel will hamstring this organization for a long time. Yeah, there haven't been a lot of moves by the Marv/Dick regime that leave you saying "that was a great move" in retrospect. What's more, most of the moves looked bad and had the league scratching their heads at the time when they were made. Edwards is the ONLY hope for success from what this regime has put together. Comparing Donahoe/Levy: Coaching Hires....Advantage Levy, but not by a lot. Jauron is a proven loser and is a horrendous gameday coach, but his conservative style is a good fit for a stripped down young team that isn't all that talented. Free Agency Incoming...Huge Advantage Donahoe. Added stars and playmakers. Levy has overpaid for a lot of BAD players. Free Agency Outgoing...Levy by a slim margin. Losing Williams undermined Gray's defense, losing Clements undermined Fewell's defense. The organization has a policy of letting good players walk because they think they have replacements at a time when most teams realize they are flush with cap space and can afford to keep their players. That's why the Bills have had a lot of guys at or near the top of the coveted free agent lists in recent years. The difference, IMO would be Donahoe unnecessarily cutting Ted Washington, which was a gigantic blow for the organization. He went on to anchor many other good defenses, including a SB winner in NE. Levy cut too deep when he got here too, but not to that extent. Drafting and UDFA....Donahoe. He couldn't find a QB but most of the other key players are Donahoe draftees and a lot of Donahoe's picks went on to play well elsewhere or are still contributing in the NFL many years later. Found a lot of star players, including a big time LT(Peters), RDE(Schobel), CB(Clements) and WR(Evans) which are big $ positions. Trades....Levy. Trading for Bledsoe and then trading Price undermined the first deal. Trading Henry looks good where Henry is now, but it removed the motivation from McGahee and showed they didn't understand the future of the game was two back systems. Levy got picks for McGahee and Moulds and acquired Williams, Edwards and Stroud with the chips they got in return. Spikes trade was subtraction by subtraction. Stroud was worth the picks. Quarterback....This needs it's own category and the advantage goes to Levy. Donahoe couldn't find the one or support the ones he had. Edwards is the only reason this team is even close to .500 because the rest of the team is lacking. If he doesn't progress or a top QB doesn't fall in their laps, Levy/Dick will be a disaster because they don't coach, draft or work free agency well enough to be consistently competitive. OL.......Another area that deserves it's own category, IMO. Even. Levy at least made an honest attempt to bolster the OL by a lot, but it appears to have been more of a "one time" concession to a decade of neglect than the organizational policy it should be. The players signed were grossly overpaid and are too fat and slow to run block, but they have been a significant improvement in pass protection. Donahoe hit on Jennings and Peters, but taking Mike Williams over McKinnie was a bad move the moment it was made and swapping out Ruben Brown for a broken down Chris Villarial was another big mistake.
BillsVet Posted November 28, 2008 Posted November 28, 2008 This I definitely agree with. The Bills overpaid BIGTIME in this trade. They gave up a high 3rd round pick just to move up 9 slots in the second round. Way too expensive when they could have had David Harris fall right into their lap in the event Poz was taken. It's funny you mention the trade-up thing.. you couldn't be more correct. In 2006, Marv moved up to take McCargo -- dumb move then, dumb move now. In 2007, Marv moved up to take Poz -- good player but the Bills overpaid bigtime. In 2008, the NY media reported that the Bills tried unsuccessfully to trade back into the first round with the Giants!!!! They were probably targeting James Hardy. When you don't value draft picks and you're willing to just trade them away, it shows in the product on the field. On draft day and in free agency, I've never felt the Bills front office was ahead of the curve or savvy enough to make the right moves. Moving up in the draft, as many have pointed out, should only be done when a team needs another player and is already a good team. If the Bills were interested in trading up to get Hardy, it demonstrates once again that they lock on to one guy and will pay any price to get him. Drafting Whitner in 06 was the first example for this front office. Nevermind Whitner wasn't the player they needed, but they didn't even consider trading down. Even though it would have resulted in more picks. Parcells makes a point of stockpiling picks, and he's had good success because more options with a good GM result in a better chance of success. We talk frequently about DJ's poor gameday decisions. If DJ truly guided Marv on draft day 06, it makes perfect sense that Buffalo sat tight, took their guy, and made the conservative decision. IMO, if the front office doesn't add a proven NFL type, this team will remain stuck in mediocrity for years to come. And I'm tired of it.
mannc Posted November 28, 2008 Posted November 28, 2008 This I definitely agree with. The Bills overpaid BIGTIME in this trade. They gave up a high 3rd round pick just to move up 9 slots in the second round. Way too expensive when they could have had David Harris fall right into their lap in the event Poz was taken. It's funny you mention the trade-up thing.. you couldn't be more correct. In 2006, Marv moved up to take McCargo -- dumb move then, dumb move now. In 2007, Marv moved up to take Poz -- good player but the Bills overpaid bigtime. In 2008, the NY media reported that the Bills tried unsuccessfully to trade back into the first round with the Giants!!!! They were probably targeting James Hardy. When you don't value draft picks and you're willing to just trade them away, it shows in the product on the field. When you trade up you are almost always trading two (or more) lower picks for one higher one. The problem with that is that no one truly knows who is going to be a bust and who is going to be a stud (although you can significantly increase your chances of success by ruling out any player who attended the University of Texas at Austin). You have a better chance to improve your team when you are able to draft multiple players instead of just one. And also, especially when you are trading up into the first round, the one player you are drafting usually costs you more money than the two or more players you would have picked lower on the board.
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