drnykterstein Posted November 29, 2008 Posted November 29, 2008 That makes a lot of sense, though I was not aware of it. Companies do invest in other companies often. So what say you? Should we just give 25 Billion to the companies that have shown they know how to run themselves, instead of the ones that have demonstrated repeated incompetence?
ExiledInIllinois Posted November 29, 2008 Posted November 29, 2008 That makes a lot of sense, though I was not aware of it. Companies do invest in other companies often. So what say you? Should we just give 25 Billion to the companies that have shown they know how to run themselves, instead of the ones that have demonstrated repeated incompetence? My gut says let them tough it out. But, you can't break them. Kinda like doing things for your child... Any good parnet would want them to do things for themselves, yet you don't want to see your child fail. Kinda like sending them to school. Send them with the whole amount and they may well goof off. Yet, if they have to work 8 hours a day and still find time to study... They may fail. It is a tough call... How does one instill good habits, but not get taken for a ride?
BuffaloBill Posted November 29, 2008 Posted November 29, 2008 How is CNN so sure that Buffala/Rochester will be the most effected. When GM announced plant closings back in teh 80's, Buffalo fared OK, largely (I believe) because the Engine Plant was one of the more efficient. If that plant still has a reputation for quality and productivity, it has a strong chance to survive. I had a colleague in Cinci tell me how, at that time, GM couldn't wait to close teh Norwood, OH plant because of low productivity and numerous worker issues. The plants that produce quality parts on time should survive. Here's another issue, is WNY going to do anything to attract foreign automakers to teh area. The foreign makers are here to stay and if Buffalo gets their plants, there's a place for displaced autoworkers other than down south. It's a tough anecdote but its the real world. The other problem is Albany and teh NTS Legislature. NY is so business unfirendly that it takes a deal with the Legislature for any plant to be brought to NYS. Unless teh Senate Majority leader is in your region, you're screwed. Albany-Saratoga got loads of business development because its in or near the district of now former SML Joe Bruno. The SML is now from Long Island, and guess where the business development bucks will go now (despite what they say to the press). Having worked for a parts supplier - they tend to go to lower wage and right to work states. NY fits neither of these.
ChasBB Posted November 29, 2008 Posted November 29, 2008 Tell the US automakers to revise their flawed business plan of making low MPG vehicles. Seriously! US automakers are COMPLETE IDIOTS for not addressing the fact that people want high-MPG vehicles and have wanted them for many years now -- not just the past 2 years. And now the taxpayers have to bail the dopes out. What a bunch of F-ups running our government and our industry.
DFITZ1 Posted November 29, 2008 Posted November 29, 2008 Seriously! US automakers are COMPLETE IDIOTS for not addressing the fact that people want high-MPG vehicles and have wanted them for many years now -- not just the past 2 years. And now the taxpayers have to bail the dopes out. What a bunch of F-ups running our government and our industry. Agreed. The US Automakers didn't learn their lesson from the late 70's- early 80's. Since the 80's, they put their technology into minivans and SUV's, and were not ready for another oil crisis.
bigbillsfan12 Posted November 29, 2008 Posted November 29, 2008 Agreed. The US Automakers didn't learn their lesson from the late 70's- early 80's. Since the 80's, they put their technology into minivans and SUV's, and were not ready for another oil crisis. It's funny that people kept buying those large vehicles for years and years. They built what the public wanted, why do you think Toyota built that 2 billion dollar tundra truck plant in Texas? Every single auto maker was making and selling large inefficient trucks that the American population wanted. How long do you think it takes to bring out a new vehicle? a lot longer than 2 years. People watch a little CNN and they think they know it all, spoon fed propaganda. Watch this little video because this guy might put it into perspective for you: It's funny how quickly and easily the banks that caused all of this walked away with 700+ billion dollars without much public disdain.
Fortunesmith Posted November 29, 2008 Posted November 29, 2008 Automobiles manufactured by the Big Three do not hold their value: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122706313908040047.html The Big Three's union workers still earn an average of just over $70 an hour, compared with about $40 for Toyota and Honda's U.S.-based nonunion employees: http://online.barrons.com/article/SB122792...glenews_barrons
alg Posted November 29, 2008 Posted November 29, 2008 Exactly... GM is in on Toyota... Isn't Ford in on with Nissan (early on the Windstar and Quest were sister vehicles), Mazda, and Volvo... Many years after Mitsubishi bombed Pearl Harbor with the "Japanese Zero" they struck deals with Chrysler. The list goes on. Doesn't GM/Buick own a certain % of Isuzu? My point? The are all intertwined. Which begins to point to the real evil - multi-nationals. We still think of companies as American, but there is hardly such a thing anymore. Not that I have ever been a protectionist, but it sounds like a good idea when our (USA) jobs go oversees to the cheapest labor pools. Which in some cases is practically slave labor. For example, is Walmart American? Does it really matter? They go into America's small and large towns, wipe out the small businesses in the area, send the money to China for manufacturing, and move on when the well runs dry. Leaving a ghost town in it's wake. And after all our small business' and good paying jobs are gone, everyone goes to Walmart because they can't afford to shop anywhere else. Modern (multinational) businesses seem to be more of a pyramid scheme then anything else. Cut costs here, lay off workers there, pump the share prices, get the 7-8 figure bonus, get your bailout money from the corrupt Washington political system, and start the process over as needed. And all of this without regard for national borders or the lives of the people effected. We're are in trouble folks, and it probably has little to do with what we are told the problems are...
DFITZ1 Posted November 29, 2008 Posted November 29, 2008 It's funny that people kept buying those large vehicles for years and years. They built what the public wanted, why do you think Toyota built that 2 billion dollar tundra truck plant in Texas? Every single auto maker was making and selling large inefficient trucks that the American population wanted. How long do you think it takes to bring out a new vehicle? a lot longer than 2 years. People watch a little CNN and they think they know it all, spoon fed propaganda. Watch this little video because this guy might put it into perspective for you: It's funny how quickly and easily the banks that caused all of this walked away with 700+ billion dollars without much public disdain. It was a good video. IT's true that the American public fell back into the gas guzzling SUV's and Trucks, but the foreign makers have always reacted faster to a changes in the market than the big 3. One comment I would add to Cotter's comments, is if responsible American taxpayers have to bail out irresponsible financial institutions, someone (and several, actually) should be going to jail or have civil action brought against them. Unfortunately, I think that is unlikely.
DazedandConfused Posted November 30, 2008 Posted November 30, 2008 Automobiles manufactured by the Big Three do not hold their value: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122706313908040047.html The Big Three's union workers still earn an average of just over $70 an hour, compared with about $40 for Toyota and Honda's U.S.-based nonunion employees: http://online.barrons.com/article/SB122792...glenews_barrons The argument I have heard is that the $70/hour number is simply based on bad math by an author published in the NY Times. The # supposedly is derived from taking all the costs wgich the Big 3 pay out to labor both working and retired and then dividing it by the number of hours current employees work. This # does show the amount of money the Big 3 agreed to pay their current and past workers. However, it does not reflect the current contracts that the Big 2 pay. There is a difference between the two in that the Big 3 have no ability to change the past unless they declare bankruptcy and escape the contracts they agreed to in the past (by welching on the past agreements and shifting as many costs as they can to the taxpayers who will pick up a substantial portion of their past deals if they go bankrupt). Even if one wants to live in a world where you define the $70/number as true (even though it has no reality for the current pay of employees) it ertainly has no relevance for how they are gonna squeeze water from a stone to somehow ignore reality.
ExiledInIllinois Posted November 30, 2008 Posted November 30, 2008 Seriously! US automakers are COMPLETE IDIOTS for not addressing the fact that people want high-MPG vehicles and have wanted them for many years now -- not just the past 2 years. And now the taxpayers have to bail the dopes out. What a bunch of F-ups running our government and our industry. Bull! Okay... Okay, I will play. I don't buy it. Detroit was giving them the candy everybody wanted. Gas is now extremely low... Back to a buck 50 a gallon. Now... If the economy picks up, people start working again, AND gas stays low... Then the public starts clamoring for the big SUV's again... What should Detroit do, say no? You are getting what we tell you. Detroit: "You have to take the Ford Focus." I can just hear the screaming from the other end. Remember, Americans have very short attention spans... How quickly will they forget $4.50 a gallon?
ExiledInIllinois Posted November 30, 2008 Posted November 30, 2008 Which begins to point to the real evil - multi-nationals. We still think of companies as American, but there is hardly such a thing anymore. Not that I have ever been a protectionist, but it sounds like a good idea when our (USA) jobs go oversees to the cheapest labor pools. Which in some cases is practically slave labor. For example, is Walmart American? Does it really matter? They go into America's small and large towns, wipe out the small businesses in the area, send the money to China for manufacturing, and move on when the well runs dry. Leaving a ghost town in it's wake. And after all our small business' and good paying jobs are gone, everyone goes to Walmart because they can't afford to shop anywhere else. Modern (multinational) businesses seem to be more of a pyramid scheme then anything else. Cut costs here, lay off workers there, pump the share prices, get the 7-8 figure bonus, get your bailout money from the corrupt Washington political system, and start the process over as needed. And all of this without regard for national borders or the lives of the people effected. We're are in trouble folks, and it probably has little to do with what we are told the problems are... Yep! Truly sad...
Stussy109 Posted November 30, 2008 Posted November 30, 2008 My opinion is if the Government has to bail you out, you probably have a pretty bad business plan. Too bad the auto companies in US can't be innovative like the Germans and Japanese. WHile I dont care much about how my few hundred dollars is spent on companies, I would much rather put my money elsewhere then into the companies producing chevy cobalts(cavalier) and ford taurus's in 2009. If somebody was handed a free check for 30k, how many people would die to go hit the ford or chevy car lot? In the short term it will be really bad, but all the people buying fords, chevy's etc will eventually be buying toyotas hondas volkswagen etc... Demand will increase, and so will the demand for skilled employees.
ExiledInIllinois Posted November 30, 2008 Posted November 30, 2008 My opinion is if the Government has to bail you out, you probably have a pretty bad business plan. Too bad the auto companies in US can't be innovative like the Germans and Japanese. WHile I dont care much about how my few hundred dollars is spent on companies, I would much rather put my money elsewhere then into the companies producing chevy cobalts(cavalier) and ford taurus's in 2009. If somebody was handed a free check for 30k, how many people would die to go hit the ford or chevy car lot? In the short term it will be really bad, but all the people buying fords, chevy's etc will eventually be buying toyotas hondas volkswagen etc... Demand will increase, and so will the demand for skilled employees. How does this explain that the Japanese automakers are subsidized by their gov't... Do they have a bad business plan? Oh... 86 the Germans from that "innovative list". German Automakers Facing The Abyss Even executives at Japanese carmaker Toyota are worried. Ultimately, the entire business model of VW, Mercedes-Benz and BMW is beginning to falter. Opel is not the only German carmaker seeking government assistance. VW, Daimler and BMW have also submitted their requests. They want Berlin to issue government loan guarantees on the loans taken out by the carmakers' financing divisions. They are also asking the German government to pay a premium to anyone who replaces a car more than 10 years old with a new one.
Recommended Posts