bigbillsfan12 Posted November 25, 2008 Posted November 25, 2008 people nowadays don't want to take responsibility for their own actions anymore, what ever happened to people supporting their country and their neighbor? stop complaining about wages and benefits, it seems like this is just about being envious of people that make a good living. it's like the whole country is in a race to the bottom. who benefits from all these concessions and wage cuts? not you or me, it's the guys who already have more money than they know what to do with. what i'm saying is that soon the middle class is going to become a rare species, moving over for the haves and have nots.
Stenbar Posted November 25, 2008 Posted November 25, 2008 The bad economy goes both ways..Do you really think in these lean times some city is gonna pony up that kinda dough for a football stadium???No way..I doubt very much any team moves in the near or far future till our economy gets fixed. With any luck when it does maybe Buffalo can rebound...
Peevo Posted November 25, 2008 Posted November 25, 2008 While the statistics clearly show that american assembled autos have caught up with imports the fact of the matter is that the seeds for this problem were planted 40 years ago when the management and employees of the big three did not give a crap about the quality of their autos. They dug themselves in a hole and have been trying to get out of it ever since. WNY has paid dearly for this. If WNY hopes to remain or regain status as a thriving community / region, then the economy has to be diversified and jobs need to be developed from within. I do not blame only the heavy industry that remains or that has left the region. The govt bodies, the community and other institutions need to focus on tax structures that are oppressive, a way to make the winter a positive rather than a negative (at least stress the beaty of the region at other times of the year). and yes shed itself of that long held image of a "blue collar town." Fact of the matter is that high paying jobs that will stick are not blue collar. They are in the sciences, engineering, finance, high tech, healthcare and entrprenurialism. What underpins all of these is a sound education system and a workforce that is creative and thinks. I and my wife would love to return to to WNY and root for the Bills but the economy and taxes suck. Totally nailed it right there. A generation ago, the US economy shifted from manufacturing to service. The "Rust Belt," cities in the Midwest/Eastern Bloc, near the Great Lakes (Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Erie, Detroit, Milwaukee, et all) still have yet to truly recover or redefine themselves from that image. As much as I love our history, and I cite my Rust Belt roots with pride, our attitude about how we do business in Western New York HAS to change for us to have any growth in the future. I was raised in the 'burbs, I admit. Kenmore is first ring though, the city is at least bordering the village. Sprawl has KILLED this region. Either from fear of crime, or simply the city schools are just too bad to raise a family in, suburban sprawl and the systemic shift of resources really hurt us. While I've read that the housing market in Erie County, and the city municipality is on an uptick from the rest of the industry, its still VERY hard to do business here. The highest property taxes and sales tax in the country? Erie County. How do businesses survive when the county that "supports" them bleeds them to death? And of course, no surprise, but the teachers unions are all up in Collins's grill because he wants to make it easier for bad teachers to lose their jobs without all the bull sh-- and red tape. You wonder why the city schools suffer? Cause nothing ever changes, nobody wants to be held accountable. The fastest rising industry in Buffalo, and the country as it stands? Debt collection. Wow. Seriously? Is our entire economic system just made of charging people obscene interest, and then renegotiating the terms when they can't pay it?
colin Posted November 25, 2008 Posted November 25, 2008 cry me a river. the unions have been living high off the hog for a long time, with insane defined benefit pensions and the bill is coming due. actually, the bill is way past due, but bailouts have kept the big 3 alive for too long already. they should have died long ago (like the airlines and other corporate cronyism hand out takers) to be picked up by new innovative management, and to remove the bullsht legacy costs of unskilled labor. the "job banks" employees of the big 3, all 3700 or so of them, cost the big 3 over half a billion dollars all in last year. these are guys that could be replaced by a slightly above average high school junior.
DIE HARD 1967 Posted November 25, 2008 Author Posted November 25, 2008 cry me a river. the unions have been living high off the hog for a long time, with insane defined benefit pensions and the bill is coming due. actually, the bill is way past due, but bailouts have kept the big 3 alive for too long already. they should have died long ago (like the airlines and other corporate cronyism hand out takers) to be picked up by new innovative management, and to remove the bullsht legacy costs of unskilled labor. the "job banks" employees of the big 3, all 3700 or so of them, cost the big 3 over half a billion dollars all in last year. these are guys that could be replaced by a slightly above average high school junior. Gm employees now make 12.00 per hour with no health insurance or pension. The days of big money were in the 80's and 90's and early 2000. You right, I think 8.00 is fair. At that wage,they sure will not be buying season tickets The auto industry is nearly all computerized with robotics and you need some college now days
Peevo Posted November 25, 2008 Posted November 25, 2008 Yeah its very tough. As far as I understand, and an economist I am not, but the real problem is in their retirees' pensions/health insurance plans. I think I read somewhere that GM only makes a couple hundred bucks/car they sell? And on average a GM vehicle is, what, $15,000? Maybe more? It seems on here NOBODY wants to talk about anything other than the Bills and their immediate opponents. Which is understandable because its a Bills message board. But I think the original intent was to tie some issues currently to the local economy at hand, which, in turn, affects the Bills. Call me crazy.
DIE HARD 1967 Posted November 25, 2008 Author Posted November 25, 2008 Thats hardly the problem. $47/hr for Toyota workers vs $95/hr for GM union workers. Break the union contracts through bankruptcy & GM is back on track to get out of the hole that they've dug for themselves. GM workers now make 12.00 per hour with no health insurance or pension. They are contract employees and they make up 70% of the current work force. the rest have retired The figures above are not even close.
bigbillsfan12 Posted November 25, 2008 Posted November 25, 2008 Tell the US automakers to revise their flawed business plan of making low MPG vehicles. read and learn: The American Gas Guzzler Myth and Pundits Unfairly Target American Automakers
DIE HARD 1967 Posted November 25, 2008 Author Posted November 25, 2008 read and learn: The American Gas Guzzler Myth Thank you for the link. The problem with GM is the turn over time to retool for more popular vehicles is about 2 years. The bigger gas guzzlers will real popular in the US till gas hit $4 per gallon. American's wanted those big SUV's then changed their minds when gas went up! Now GM will tool up for smaller cars and the gas is now $1.86 in Florida and the customers will demand SUV's
BuffaloBud Posted November 25, 2008 Posted November 25, 2008 read and learn: The American Gas Guzzler Myth and Pundits Unfairly Target American Automakers We will have to agree to disagree.
DIE HARD 1967 Posted November 25, 2008 Author Posted November 25, 2008 We will have to agree to disagree. Thanks for the link and if you go back a few responses you will find I said pretty much the same thing Keep in mind, the Bigger vehicles have by far the biggest profit margin
stuckincincy Posted November 25, 2008 Posted November 25, 2008 Thank you for the link. The problem with GM is the turn over time to retool for more popular vehicles is about 2 years. The bigger gas guzzlers will real popular in the US till gas hit $4 per gallon. American's wanted those big SUV's then changed their minds when gas went up! Now GM will tool up for smaller cars and the gas is now $1.86 in Florida and the customers will demand SUV's Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, most manufacturers also got stuck with bigger vehicles in the pipeline when the high gasoline cost hit. Nobody had a crystal ball. That 2 year turnover to retool a plant for GM is pretty close to industry norm. Actually remarkable, it's more or less the norm in the industry world-wide. Compounding manufacturers in, or who dare to sell, in the US market are the never-ending onslaught of government regulations. That's a lengthy subject, worthy of a separate thread.
Hossage Posted November 25, 2008 Posted November 25, 2008 Bankruptcy is not necessarily bad for the auto companies or the buffalo area. They will continue to operate, and it will give them a chance to reform much more than otherwise. The big three and the UAW made a deal with the devil last year when they signed a deal that they both knew would take them into bankruptcy in months. They are technically in bankruptcy now; the companies are insolvent, meaning they cannot cover their debts. The debt they now hold can be converted to stock at a discount after bankruptcy restructuring. Protection of industry does not work, and this isnt the first time the auto industry has been bailed out. Ideally, the government would offer to bail out the retiree costs, which account for 3000 dollars of a stripped down pickup, and dissolve the UAW. Free of the thousands of pages of the labor contract and with 30% cheaper labor, our auto industry would make the best cars in the world.
Captain Quint Posted November 25, 2008 Posted November 25, 2008 GM workers now make 12.00 per hour with no health insurance or pension. They are contract employees and they make up 70% of the current work force. the rest have retired The figures above are not even close. http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/11/cancer...hr-pay-gap.html I'm not talking hourly wage, I'm talking total compensation. You're right that $95 was off, its actually $75/hr, but my point is that the difference is around $30/hr more that Ford, Chrysler, & GM employees make in total compensation. That should tell you how much those union contracts are bringing the industry down as well as the quality of product that is being produced.
DIE HARD 1967 Posted November 25, 2008 Author Posted November 25, 2008 Bankruptcy is not necessarily bad for the auto companies or the buffalo area. They will continue to operate, and it will give them a chance to reform much more than otherwise. The big three and the UAW made a deal with the devil last year when they signed a deal that they both knew would take them into bankruptcy in months. They are technically in bankruptcy now; the companies are insolvent, meaning they cannot cover their debts. The debt they now hold can be converted to stock at a discount after bankruptcy restructuring. Protection of industry does not work, and this isnt the first time the auto industry has been bailed out. Ideally, the government would offer to bail out the retiree costs, which account for 3000 dollars of a stripped down pickup, and dissolve the UAW. Free of the thousands of pages of the labor contract and with 30% cheaper labor, our auto industry would make the best cars in the world. If the UAW is gone, I hope you can live with WALMART wages. US workers are forced to compete against $3.65 wages in China and Korea. Unfortunately we live in Buffalo and have to pay taxes too! The Answer is to buy AMERICAN and tax the importers to the US or nobody will have a job.
stuckincincy Posted November 25, 2008 Posted November 25, 2008 Bankruptcy is not necessarily bad for the auto companies or the buffalo area. They will continue to operate, and it will give them a chance to reform much more than otherwise. The big three and the UAW made a deal with the devil last year when they signed a deal that they both knew would take them into bankruptcy in months. They are technically in bankruptcy now; the companies are insolvent, meaning they cannot cover their debts. The debt they now hold can be converted to stock at a discount after bankruptcy restructuring. Protection of industry does not work, and this isnt the first time the auto industry has been bailed out. Ideally, the government would offer to bail out the retiree costs, which account for 3000 dollars of a stripped down pickup, and dissolve the UAW. Free of the thousands of pages of the labor contract and with 30% cheaper labor, our auto industry would make the best cars in the world. IIRC, the last (only) time was the 1.5 billion loan to Chrysler. Which was paid back. 1983 1984? Meanwhile, we have a government forking over $700 billion+ to financial businesses. And still, politicians of every strip complaining about manufacturing jobs in the US going overseas. The US auto companies - who employ hundreds of thousands, and the millions of jobs provided by the vast numbers of supplier- have to go in front of a Congress and beg for what amounts to 4% of what the banks and insurance companies got gifted with. Where were the congressional committees drilling the financial sector? Now we hear words about a "structured bankruptcy" with a certain level of government ownership. I stated a while ago that that was the goal - a government inroad into the means of production. We see today, that the government wants preferred equity stake in Citigroup. BTW, these bailouts have added another $24,000 of already high debt on every man, woman, and child in America. Study up on Rep. Frank - D, on Ginnie and Freddie Mac if you look to assign blame. You surely can't conceive of a bunch of so-called "mean-spirited" Republicans advocating those easy mortgage terms. What happened here, is that with the nonstop onslaught by the Dems, the Left, resulted in Republicans being so browbeaten - when they spoke up, the accusations of racism were said or implied. So the Reps gave up, and stopped trying to save the Dem's bacon. And the citizens that thought that 0% down housing was some sort of birthright. And the ones that sniffed zero interest, then proceeded to run up 2nd mortgage loans based on nothing. Did the banks go along? Sure! Ginnie/Freddie skewed common sense so much, why not? They were prudent for years about not not loaning house money without 20% up-front money. Until the Liberals deemed such as "unfair" People should get a copy of Marx and Engels Communist Manifesto. It's a brief publication. It used to be pretty much required reading. If you would like to read another eye-opener, locate a long out of print publication...Money Creators, by Gertrude Coogan. IIRC it was first printed in 1935.
BuffaloBill Posted November 25, 2008 Posted November 25, 2008 Totally nailed it right there. A generation ago, the US economy shifted from manufacturing to service. The "Rust Belt," cities in the Midwest/Eastern Bloc, near the Great Lakes (Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Erie, Detroit, Milwaukee, et all) still have yet to truly recover or redefine themselves from that image. As much as I love our history, and I cite my Rust Belt roots with pride, our attitude about how we do business in Western New York HAS to change for us to have any growth in the future. I was raised in the 'burbs, I admit. Kenmore is first ring though, the city is at least bordering the village. Sprawl has KILLED this region. Either from fear of crime, or simply the city schools are just too bad to raise a family in, suburban sprawl and the systemic shift of resources really hurt us. While I've read that the housing market in Erie County, and the city municipality is on an uptick from the rest of the industry, its still VERY hard to do business here. The highest property taxes and sales tax in the country? Erie County. How do businesses survive when the county that "supports" them bleeds them to death? And of course, no surprise, but the teachers unions are all up in Collins's grill because he wants to make it easier for bad teachers to lose their jobs without all the bull sh-- and red tape. You wonder why the city schools suffer? Cause nothing ever changes, nobody wants to be held accountable. The fastest rising industry in Buffalo, and the country as it stands? Debt collection. Wow. Seriously? Is our entire economic system just made of charging people obscene interest, and then renegotiating the terms when they can't pay it? Thx
Jim in Anchorage Posted November 25, 2008 Posted November 25, 2008 I lived in W.N.Y. [actually Orchard Park] all thru the 80s and most of the 70s and it seems to me the economy was ALWAYS bad. I wonder if that confiscatory tax system is more to blame then the unions. I read in the online news a few weeks ago about a retiring 59 year old cop who was going to get a 100000k+ pension-for life- with COLA no doubt-where is that money going to come from? Why you and the place you work.
DIE HARD 1967 Posted November 25, 2008 Author Posted November 25, 2008 Lets get to the bottom line. Buffalo must reverse the population movement to the southern United States. If the population reduction continues, the Buffalo Bills will be gone. Some fans truly believe Jim Kelly will save the Bills and I would like to believe that too. When Ralph dies there will be a bidding war and Jim Kelly might simply back out. WE need more then one option, other then Jim Kelly and his investors.
Tcali Posted November 25, 2008 Posted November 25, 2008 You guys know I don't post very much, but I do read nearly every thread on this board. Washington is holding discussions on what to do with General Motors. If they vote to help GM, or refuse, and drive the company to Bankruptcy, the outcome will have a major impact of jobs in WNY Either way, GM will close over half of the assembly plants. (per CNN) Today CNN reported the most effected cities should GM close plants, Buffalo NY was listed as #3. Buffalo is listed as #1 in the percentage of jobs versus available alternative jobs There is over 100,000 GM related jobs in Rochester and Buffalo in an area that has roughly 400,000 residents. Many experts predict Ford will be next in line for assistance and that is another 50,000 auto industry related jobs. Conrail posted a message on CNN that stated that without the auto industry, "We are out of business" Buffalo's market is already one of the smallest in professional sports and the outcome could have a major impact on the area. So, am I worried about WNY families and losing the Buffalo Bills? You bet I am! I just wanted to make you aware of what could happen while we wind down the season. I believe Ralph is paying close attention to the outcome of these meetings in Washington. Open this link if you are looking for answers http://ionlybuyamerican.com/ - Die Hard 1967 Diehard...whether they 'help' GM or not doesn't really matter unless GM drastically alters their pay for workers and pensioners.If they don't do those things and they receive the bailout----then the bailout $$$ will go right down the sewer and they will declare bankruptcy anyway. If they don't get the bailout then they will go to banktruptcy and get restructured by force.....and some of the company and many the employees will still have jobs. I think the best thing would be to give the bailout WITH stipulations for drastic change in the employees contracts/pensions. The worst would be to give the bailout &throw away billions of taxpayer dollars while the companies go bankrupt anyway because they don't reform their pay model/business model. The middle option(which may be inevitable) is for them to go to bankruptcy.
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