A General QB question that relates to the Bills

[StupidNation]

Those guys threw the ball soft and over people's heads using good routes rather than through D-linemen's arms. There was an arc on most of their passes I've watched on the NFL network and it really stands out to me the speed of the ball. I'm watching the NFL network and I'm wondering why most QBs see the game as a laser-beam contest of hard passes. Even Jimbo thew arc on many passes, even with Thurman coming out of the backfield over the LB's head just like Quinn did with his RB against us where the QB rushes the RB thinking it's a screen and tosses it over their head as the RB accelerates forward.

 

Why can't our QBs learn to do this? Why can't the QBs of today pass more like Marino than Jimbo or Young/Montana? Seems to be a lost art, although Brees does it.

[My Friends Call Me Tebucky]

I'm no quarterback coach, but I would guess that part of it is that A) Young was the most accurate passer I've ever seen, so he might not be a fair example, and B) the closing speed of corners and safeties nowdays is far better than it was 20, even 10 years ago.

 

Guys like Louis Oliver and Mark Kelso wouldn't even make an NFL roster now if you transplanted their talent from 1990 to today.

[StupidNation]

I'm no quarterback coach, but I would guess that part of it is that A) Young was the most accurate passer I've ever seen, so he might not be a fair example, and B) the closing speed of corners and safeties nowdays is far better than it was 20, even 10 years ago.

 

Guys like Louis Oliver and Mark Kelso wouldn't even make an NFL roster now if you transplanted their talent from 1990 to today.

 

I didn't see a huge difference in speed from 1993 to now. I also think Warner in 1999 was the most accurate I've ever seen for one year, but Young was extremely accurate and probably the most accurate for his career. That said part of his accuracy was the speed of the ball where WRs could place themselves with a cushion to catch the ball.

 

I watched the NFC Championship game of the Cowpukes vs. 49ers and Young was extremely accurate, but the ball was slow, even on screens. His pass to Rice for the TD that was called back in the 1st quarter was so slow he easily adjusted to slow down, and then catch it at full stride to streak to a TD.

 

I don't really think you could say Deion Sanders, Woodson, and the other guys would be easily replaced. The speed of the NFL hasn't changed that much in 15 years, and as a matter of fact extremely little. 20 years ago sure, but everyone was pretty much juicing in the 90's on.

[49er Fan]

I would say overall the speed of DEs today is faster, meaning guys like Montana, Aikman, Young et.al. had precious extra fractions of seconds to throw. Over an entire game it might only add up to 1 full second, but that could be enough for few big plays or first downs.

 

Then if you're talking about Montana and Young, you have to bring up Rice. Rice in the 80s up to the mid-90s was virtually uncoverable. Not just his route running, but his timing of patterns with his QBs' throws plus his sure hands made his QBs' jobs much easier.

[DFITZ1]

Those guys threw the ball soft and over people's heads using good routes rather than through D-linemen's arms. There was an arc on most of their passes I've watched on the NFL network and it really stands out to me the speed of the ball. I'm watching the NFL network and I'm wondering why most QBs see the game as a laser-beam contest of hard passes. Even Jimbo thew arc on many passes, even with Thurman coming out of the backfield over the LB's head just like Quinn did with his RB against us where the QB rushes the RB thinking it's a screen and tosses it over their head as the RB accelerates forward.

 

Why can't our QBs learn to do this? Why can't the QBs of today pass more like Marino than Jimbo or Young/Montana? Seems to be a lost art, although Brees does it.

 

We need receivers that can separate from DB's or find holes in zones. Our receivers need a laser beam throw for any chance of a reception (and many of those are caught). How many times do you see our opponents receivers STANDING wide open by five yards or able to run short routes underneath a soft zone. To throw like softer, our guys need to get more space between them and the DB.

[Thoner7]

Its called touch. JP had absolutely none of it. Trent has more of it. It requires better timing because with the ball in the air longer, the DB's can close on the ball. There is a time and place to use some touch, and also a time when you need a lazer. Those QB's are hall of famers so I would expect them to have great touch. Manning has some good touch, so does Pennington. There is more than one way to skin a cat I guess, but knowning all the ways doesn't hurt.

[StupidNation]

We need receivers that can separate from DB's or find holes in zones. Our receivers need a laser beam throw for any chance of a reception (and many of those are caught). How many times do you see our opponents receivers STANDING wide open by five yards or able to run short routes underneath a soft zone. To throw like softer, our guys need to get more space between them and the DB.

 

I don't think so. I think so far all of you are saying it's not possible based on physicality, but are you saying that Joe Montana in his prime wouldn't succeed today? The same for Steve Young? Last time I checked those guys lined up across Bruce, Reggie, et al. and did just fine.

 

My point was by throwing the softer the passes over the top it take away the issues of LBs in the middle of the field and it makes the safeties on the Defense more responsible for over the top plays, thereby taking them out of the box for running plays.

[SageAgainstTheMachine]

Those guys threw the ball soft and over people's heads using good routes rather than through D-linemen's arms. There was an arc on most of their passes I've watched on the NFL network and it really stands out to me the speed of the ball. I'm watching the NFL network and I'm wondering why most QBs see the game as a laser-beam contest of hard passes. Even Jimbo thew arc on many passes, even with Thurman coming out of the backfield over the LB's head just like Quinn did with his RB against us where the QB rushes the RB thinking it's a screen and tosses it over their head as the RB accelerates forward.

 

Why can't our QBs learn to do this? Why can't the QBs of today pass more like Marino than Jimbo or Young/Montana? Seems to be a lost art, although Brees does it.

 

You use Brees as your example of a touch passer, but I think a better one would be Chad Pennington. He doesn't put much zip on the ball, but he can lob grenades right into the waiting arms of his receivers. Brees isn't a bad case either, but I think his loft comes from his being too short to simply zip it over the line.

[My Friends Call Me Tebucky]

I didn't see a huge difference in speed from 1993 to now. I also think Warner in 1999 was the most accurate I've ever seen for one year, but Young was extremely accurate and probably the most accurate for his career. That said part of his accuracy was the speed of the ball where WRs could place themselves with a cushion to catch the ball.

 

I watched the NFC Championship game of the Cowpukes vs. 49ers and Young was extremely accurate, but the ball was slow, even on screens. His pass to Rice for the TD that was called back in the 1st quarter was so slow he easily adjusted to slow down, and then catch it at full stride to streak to a TD.

 

I don't really think you could say Deion Sanders, Woodson, and the other guys would be easily replaced. The speed of the NFL hasn't changed that much in 15 years, and as a matter of fact extremely little. 20 years ago sure, but everyone was pretty much juicing in the 90's on.

 

 

Sanders, Woodson, and what "other guys?" You refer to them as though they were run of the mill players instead of being Hall of Famers.

 

I'm talking about your average, run of the mill starter...who covers more ground out there faster, Terrence McGee and Ko Simpson, or Kirby Jackson and Mark Kelso?

[Tcali]

I'm no quarterback coach, but I would guess that part of it is that A) Young was the most accurate passer I've ever seen, so he might not be a fair example, and B) the closing speed of corners and safeties nowdays is far better than it was 20, even 10 years ago.

 

Guys like Louis Oliver and Mark Kelso wouldn't even make an NFL roster now if you transplanted their talent from 1990 to today.

ridiculous....unless the steroids are better now... corners were just as good back then --if not better- than they are now.

[Tcali]

Sanders, Woodson, and what "other guys?" You refer to them as though they were run of the mill players instead of being Hall of Famers.

 

I'm talking about your average, run of the mill starter...who covers more ground out there faster, Terrence McGee and Ko Simpson, or Kirby Jackson and Mark Kelso?

playing DB aint entirely about speed. Kelso played extremely smart ball.He saw the field and anticipated.

Charles Romes etc were just as fast as our guys today.

[DFITZ1]

I don't think so. I think so far all of you are saying it's not possible based on physicality, but are you saying that Joe Montana in his prime wouldn't succeed today? The same for Steve Young? Last time I checked those guys lined up across Bruce, Reggie, et al. and did just fine.

 

My point was by throwing the softer the passes over the top it take away the issues of LBs in the middle of the field and it makes the safeties on the Defense more responsible for over the top plays, thereby taking them out of the box for running plays.

 

No question Joe M would succeed today. My problem lie more with our receivers ability to get open or into the seam of a zone on a consistent basis. Other than Evans and Reed, TE has few consistent options.

[My Friends Call Me Tebucky]

I disagree...the difference is that back then they were allowed to maul receivers. Now they aren't.

 

In terms of athleticism and speed, they are far better now. The receivers are too, don't get me wrong.

 

But if you're asserting that we don't see more "lob" passers now as a coincidence, I think you're wrong. It can't be done as easily because corners and safeties close on it quicker than they would have in the mid 80's.

[My Friends Call Me Tebucky]

playing DB aint entirely about speed. Kelso played extremely smart ball.He saw the field and anticipated.

Charles Romes etc were just as fast as our guys today.

 

 

Of course it's not all about speed- if speed were all that mattered, guys like Bobby Taylor never would have had NFL careers. Speed is one thing, CLOSING speed is another.

[Cynical]

Sanders, Woodson, and what "other guys?" You refer to them as though they were run of the mill players instead of being Hall of Famers.

 

I'm talking about your average, run of the mill starter...who covers more ground out there faster, Terrence McGee and Ko Simpson, or Kirby Jackson and Mark Kelso?

 

Kelso was considered to be on the slow side even back then. Why do you think he lined up in center field the majority of the time?

[My Friends Call Me Tebucky]

No doubt. That's why I'm saying if you transplanted Mark Kelso from 1990 into a training camp today, he wouldn't even make a roster.

[Cynical]

No doubt. That's why I'm saying if you transplanted Mark Kelso from 1990 into a training camp today, he wouldn't even make a roster.

 

The problem is Kelso wasn't an atypical DB back then. He was slow, even by those standards, but played heads up ball.

He made the team because he was smart.

If speed was the only basis a player was judged on, Kelso would have never made the team.

[NorCal Aaron]

No doubt. That's why I'm saying if you transplanted Mark Kelso from 1990 into a training camp today, he wouldn't even make a roster.

 

Or he could change his name and become Jim Leonard.

[Tcali]

I disagree...the difference is that back then they were allowed to maul receivers. Now they aren't.

 

In terms of athleticism and speed, they are far better now. The receivers are too, don't get me wrong.

 

But if you're asserting that we don't see more "lob" passers now as a coincidence, I think you're wrong. It can't be done as easily because corners and safeties close on it quicker than they would have in the mid 80's.

I disagree. Players have not gotten faster in just 15 years. Why would they be faster?? More chemicals in their food?? better Roids??? College athletic programs were just as good or better then than they are now.

 

I could use the same reasoning....Would Kelsay or scobel or Denney or any of our soft fat O linemen have even made the NFL 15 years ago?? They are soft and slow and wimpy----unlike the faster more athletic linemen of 15 yrs ago.