The Big Cat Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 The Case for Dick: My worldview is starkly different from some of the posters here at TSW. I know this because my continuing support of Dick Jauron is met with sharp, nasty opposition. Whatever, nobody here has any say, and very few people (if any) know what ACTUALLY happens during the VAST majority of time this team spends together at practice, during games, in film sessions, in the weight room, in the locker room, and when they're not at work. Let's face it, most of our "knowledge" about this team comes from the same collection of media and personal sources, we all pretty much get the same scoop, but what it IS fed to us, is a tiny TINY glimpse at what actually happens with this team. I also know that many TSW posters don't share my opinion because I like to haunt PPP. For those who stay away from THAT blood bath, here's what you need to know: I'm 24 years old- therefore, FUNDAMENTALLY, I don't shlt about shlt. In all seriousness, that's probably a fair assessment, when it comes to matters of wisdom and mental soundness, what could I POSSIBLY have over a person twice my age? Still hasn't stopped me from being a total smartass, but that's beside the point! My personal arrogance, and naivete aside, I'm not a TOTAL dummy. I went to a good school, got good grades, and can effectively put a thought together. You might say, when it comes to powers of the mind, by all assessments, and especially by comparison to folks my age, I'm at least above average. So here's what I know: Dick Jauron, 58 graduated with distinction from Yale University. He is the only football player in Yale history to achieve first-team all-Ivy three times. He played in 100 NFL games, and was named to the Pro Bowl his rookie season as a punt returner. He has coached in the NFL for 23 consecutive years, nearly my entire life span. They average NFL player has masterful skill at his position, and has worked very hard his entire life. Dick Jauron, included. The average NFL player has dealt with the pressures of fame and accelerated maturity since college and even high school. The average NFL player is fairly wealthy, but more importantly to this argument, thrust into money quickly, forcing certain responsibilities to evolve MUCH faster than they do for us normies. The average NFL player can afford to and does hire people to worry about these things for him, publicists, accountants, attorneys, et al. The average NFL player is about 26 or 27 years old, a few years older than me, but just on the cusp of that "dumb ass" zone some of you old balls keep reminding me about. The average NFL player is also not INCREDIBLY intelligent. This can be accredited to a lot of things: lack of education, never being held academically accountable, coming from a poor environment, to name a few. They're not all bozos, but for the most part, what they exhibit in terms of maturity and responsibility, is sometimes offset by what they lack in brains. I think we all appreciate the efforts of Jauron and Co. to seek out the brightest of the bunch, as evident by the guys they've brought in, but even some of those guys fall considerably shy of genius. Let's not rehash some of the events of the offseason. So to review: Dick Jauron: intelligent, experienced. Me: smart [ass], but only 24, so an idiot at heart. Average NFL Player: Quite young, has earned more swagger than the average Joe, may be not as smart as Joe (or Dick). Now since my age informs my naivete and overall "cluelessness" before all other things, please consider the following about the players who are key in helping Dick Jauron achieve his professional goals: Two years younger than me Steve Johnson Marshawn Lynch One year younger than me James Hardy Donte Whitner Derek Schouman Leodis McKelvin Paul Posluszny Less than one year older than me Keith Ellison Reggie Corner Trent Edwards Ko Simpson Brad Butler One year older than me Kyle Williams The mistakes our team has made during this streak are dumbass mistakes that immature, dumb ass players make- turnovers, stupid penalties, etc. And just about ALL the players named above are in their first or second years in the league. When it comes to trusting who- between our young players and our seasoned coach- is more prepared on Sunday, and has a better grasp of what it takes to win an NFL football game, I trust Jauron, for the same reason I trust that all you old farts are right to tell me to buzz off and come back when I get a clue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 When Dick Jauron was your age, he was playing in the NFL not spending his every waking hour telling everyone he knew how smart Jim Lee Howell was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 Did you, by chance go to an Ivy-league caliber school? That would clinch it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 Did you, by chance go to an Ivy-league caliber school? That would clinch it. Only if he sat on the bus next to a janitor and talked to him like he was an equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tennesseeboy Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 good post. Jauron has done a good job, but 4 losses in a row and we'd be pissing all over Vince Lombardi, Marv Levy or Don Shula. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 Only if he sat on the bus next to a janitor and talked to him like he was an equal. Maybe he's a paid fireman who loathes volunteers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 Maybe he's a paid fireman who loathes volunteers. Could be. Why wouldn't he loathe those arson-loving volunteers? After all they get a sexual thrill from starting fires.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 good post. Jauron has done a good job, but 4 losses in a row and we'd be pissing all over Vince Lombardi, Marv Levy or Don Shula. I don't need any losses to piss on Don Shula. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepthefaith Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 The Case for Dick: My worldview is starkly different from some of the posters here at TSW. I know this because my continuing support of Dick Jauron is met with sharp, nasty opposition. Whatever, nobody here has any say, and very few people (if any) know what ACTUALLY happens during the VAST majority of time this team spends together at practice, during games, in film sessions, in the weight room, in the locker room, and when they're not at work. Let's face it, most of our "knowledge" about this team comes from the same collection of media and personal sources, we all pretty much get the same scoop, but what it IS fed to us, is a tiny TINY glimpse at what actually happens with this team. I also know that many TSW posters don't share my opinion because I like to haunt PPP. For those who stay away from THAT blood bath, here's what you need to know: I'm 24 years old- therefore, FUNDAMENTALLY, I don't shlt about shlt. In all seriousness, that's probably a fair assessment, when it comes to matters of wisdom and mental soundness, what could I POSSIBLY have over a person twice my age? Still hasn't stopped me from being a total smartass, but that's beside the point! My personal arrogance, and naivete aside, I'm not a TOTAL dummy. I went to a good school, got good grades, and can effectively put a thought together. You might say, when it comes to powers of the mind, by all assessments, and especially by comparison to folks my age, I'm at least above average. So here's what I know: Dick Jauron, 58 graduated with distinction from Yale University. He is the only football player in Yale history to achieve first-team all-Ivy three times. He played in 100 NFL games, and was named to the Pro Bowl his rookie season as a punt returner. He has coached in the NFL for 23 consecutive years, nearly my entire life span. They average NFL player has masterful skill at his position, and has worked very hard his entire life. Dick Jauron, included. The average NFL player has dealt with the pressures of fame and accelerated maturity since college and even high school. The average NFL player is fairly wealthy, but more importantly to this argument, thrust into money quickly, forcing certain responsibilities to evolve MUCH faster than they do for us normies. The average NFL player can afford to and does hire people to worry about these things for him, publicists, accountants, attorneys, et al. The average NFL player is about 26 or 27 years old, a few years older than me, but just on the cusp of that "dumb ass" zone some of you old balls keep reminding me about. The average NFL player is also not INCREDIBLY intelligent. This can be accredited to a lot of things: lack of education, never being held academically accountable, coming from a poor environment, to name a few. They're not all bozos, but for the most part, what they exhibit in terms of maturity and responsibility, is sometimes offset by what they lack in brains. I think we all appreciate the efforts of Jauron and Co. to seek out the brightest of the bunch, as evident by the guys they've brought in, but even some of those guys fall considerably shy of genius. Let's not rehash some of the events of the offseason. So to review: Dick Jauron: intelligent, experienced. Me: smart [ass], but only 24, so an idiot at heart. Average NFL Player: Quite young, has earned more swagger than the average Joe, may be not as smart as Joe (or Dick). Now since my age informs my naivete and overall "cluelessness" before all other things, please consider the following about the players who are key in helping Dick Jauron achieve his professional goals: Two years younger than me Steve Johnson Marshawn Lynch One year younger than me James Hardy Donte Whitner Derek Schouman Leodis McKelvin Paul Posluszny Less than one year older than me Keith Ellison Reggie Corner Trent Edwards Ko Simpson Brad Butler One year older than me Kyle Williams The mistakes our team has made during this streak are dumbass mistakes that immature, dumb ass players make- turnovers, stupid penalties, etc. And just about ALL the players named above are in their first or second years in the league. When it comes to trusting who- between our young players and our seasoned coach- is more prepared on Sunday, and has a better grasp of what it takes to win an NFL football game, I trust Jauron, for the same reason I trust that all you old farts are right to tell me to buzz off and come back when I get a clue! Our country is full of smart under-achievers. Dick should consider opening a private accounting practice. He'd be perfect for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 Is an agist someone who expects more than 1 winning season in 8 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaGimp Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 he still sucks as a head coach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tomcat Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 we'd piss all over Don Shula. FIXED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markj Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 The Case for Dick: My worldview is starkly different from some of the posters here at TSW. I know this because my continuing support of Dick Jauron is met with sharp, nasty opposition. Whatever, nobody here has any say, and very few people (if any) know what ACTUALLY happens during the VAST majority of time this team spends together at practice, during games, in film sessions, in the weight room, in the locker room, and when they're not at work. Let's face it, most of our "knowledge" about this team comes from the same collection of media and personal sources, we all pretty much get the same scoop, but what it IS fed to us, is a tiny TINY glimpse at what actually happens with this team. I also know that many TSW posters don't share my opinion because I like to haunt PPP. For those who stay away from THAT blood bath, here's what you need to know: I'm 24 years old- therefore, FUNDAMENTALLY, I don't shlt about shlt. In all seriousness, that's probably a fair assessment, when it comes to matters of wisdom and mental soundness, what could I POSSIBLY have over a person twice my age? Still hasn't stopped me from being a total smartass, but that's beside the point! My personal arrogance, and naivete aside, I'm not a TOTAL dummy. I went to a good school, got good grades, and can effectively put a thought together. You might say, when it comes to powers of the mind, by all assessments, and especially by comparison to folks my age, I'm at least above average. So here's what I know: Dick Jauron, 58 graduated with distinction from Yale University. He is the only football player in Yale history to achieve first-team all-Ivy three times. He played in 100 NFL games, and was named to the Pro Bowl his rookie season as a punt returner. He has coached in the NFL for 23 consecutive years, nearly my entire life span. They average NFL player has masterful skill at his position, and has worked very hard his entire life. Dick Jauron, included. The average NFL player has dealt with the pressures of fame and accelerated maturity since college and even high school. The average NFL player is fairly wealthy, but more importantly to this argument, thrust into money quickly, forcing certain responsibilities to evolve MUCH faster than they do for us normies. The average NFL player can afford to and does hire people to worry about these things for him, publicists, accountants, attorneys, et al. The average NFL player is about 26 or 27 years old, a few years older than me, but just on the cusp of that "dumb ass" zone some of you old balls keep reminding me about. The average NFL player is also not INCREDIBLY intelligent. This can be accredited to a lot of things: lack of education, never being held academically accountable, coming from a poor environment, to name a few. They're not all bozos, but for the most part, what they exhibit in terms of maturity and responsibility, is sometimes offset by what they lack in brains. I think we all appreciate the efforts of Jauron and Co. to seek out the brightest of the bunch, as evident by the guys they've brought in, but even some of those guys fall considerably shy of genius. Let's not rehash some of the events of the offseason. So to review: Dick Jauron: intelligent, experienced. Me: smart [ass], but only 24, so an idiot at heart. Average NFL Player: Quite young, has earned more swagger than the average Joe, may be not as smart as Joe (or Dick). Now since my age informs my naivete and overall "cluelessness" before all other things, please consider the following about the players who are key in helping Dick Jauron achieve his professional goals: Two years younger than me Steve Johnson Marshawn Lynch One year younger than me James Hardy Donte Whitner Derek Schouman Leodis McKelvin Paul Posluszny Less than one year older than me Keith Ellison Reggie Corner Trent Edwards Ko Simpson Brad Butler One year older than me Kyle Williams The mistakes our team has made during this streak are dumbass mistakes that immature, dumb ass players make- turnovers, stupid penalties, etc. And just about ALL the players named above are in their first or second years in the league. When it comes to trusting who- between our young players and our seasoned coach- is more prepared on Sunday, and has a better grasp of what it takes to win an NFL football game, I trust Jauron, for the same reason I trust that all you old farts are right to tell me to buzz off and come back when I get a clue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynical Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 The Case for Dick: My worldview is starkly different from some of the posters here at TSW. I know this because my continuing support of Dick Jauron is met with sharp, nasty opposition. Whatever, nobody here has any say, and very few people (if any) know what ACTUALLY happens during the VAST majority of time this team spends together at practice, during games, in film sessions, in the weight room, in the locker room, and when they're not at work. Let's face it, most of our "knowledge" about this team comes from the same collection of media and personal sources, we all pretty much get the same scoop, but what it IS fed to us, is a tiny TINY glimpse at what actually happens with this team. I also know that many TSW posters don't share my opinion because I like to haunt PPP. For those who stay away from THAT blood bath, here's what you need to know: I'm 24 years old- therefore, FUNDAMENTALLY, I don't shlt about shlt. In all seriousness, that's probably a fair assessment, when it comes to matters of wisdom and mental soundness, what could I POSSIBLY have over a person twice my age? Still hasn't stopped me from being a total smartass, but that's beside the point! It is quite possible to be smart and to be a smartass at the same time. My wife keeps reminding of that. My personal arrogance, and naivete aside, I'm not a TOTAL dummy. I went to a good school, got good grades, and can effectively put a thought together. You might say, when it comes to powers of the mind, by all assessments, and especially by comparison to folks my age, I'm at least above average. So here's what I know: Dick Jauron, 58 graduated with distinction from Yale University. He is the only football player in Yale history to achieve first-team all-Ivy three times. He played in 100 NFL games, and was named to the Pro Bowl his rookie season as a punt returner. He has coached in the NFL for 23 consecutive years, nearly my entire life span. I would be surprised if anybody has a problem with the way you put a thought together. What people are disagreeing with you is over what you put into your thoughts. The above paragraph is an example. If you majored in Marketing, that's a great paragraph. It is full of fluff that is meaningless, and designed to "polish" the image of your subject. DJ graduated from Yale, so what? DJ achieved 1st team Ivy League 3 times, so what? DJ made the pro bowl as rookie in the NFL, so what? We are not evaluating DJ the player, we are evaluating DJ the coach. The only piece of relevant info for your case is DJ's 23 years of coaching experience. They average NFL player has masterful skill at his position, and has worked very hard his entire life. Dick Jauron, included. The average NFL player has dealt with the pressures of fame and accelerated maturity since college and even high school. The average NFL player is fairly wealthy, but more importantly to this argument, thrust into money quickly, forcing certain responsibilities to evolve MUCH faster than they do for us normies. The average NFL player can afford to and does hire people to worry about these things for him, publicists, accountants, attorneys, et al. The average NFL player is about 26 or 27 years old, a few years older than me, but just on the cusp of that "dumb ass" zone some of you old balls keep reminding me about. The average NFL player is also not INCREDIBLY intelligent. This can be accredited to a lot of things: lack of education, never being held academically accountable, coming from a poor environment, to name a few. They're not all bozos, but for the most part, what they exhibit in terms of maturity and responsibility, is sometimes offset by what they lack in brains. I think we all appreciate the efforts of Jauron and Co. to seek out the brightest of the bunch, as evident by the guys they've brought in, but even some of those guys fall considerably shy of genius. Let's not rehash some of the events of the offseason. More fluff. There is nothing in there that is relevant to Jaurons coaching credentials or ability. So to review: Dick Jauron: intelligent, experienced. Me: smart [ass], but only 24, so an idiot at heart. Average NFL Player: Quite young, has earned more swagger than the average Joe, may be not as smart as Joe (or Dick). Now since my age informs my naivete and overall "cluelessness" before all other things, please consider the following about the players who are key in helping Dick Jauron achieve his professional goals: Two years younger than me Steve Johnson Marshawn Lynch One year younger than me James Hardy Donte Whitner Derek Schouman Leodis McKelvin Paul Posluszny Less than one year older than me Keith Ellison Reggie Corner Trent Edwards Ko Simpson Brad Butler One year older than me Kyle Williams The mistakes our team has made during this streak are dumbass mistakes that immature, dumb ass players make- turnovers, stupid penalties, etc. And just about ALL the players named above are in their first or second years in the league. See, here's your problem. All of that above, from the very start to this point: nicely written. Your put thoughts together quite nicely. Substance: Other than DJ has coached in the NFL for 23 years, nothing. Zip. I understand the point you are TRYING to make (DJ is being unintentionally "undermined" by young, inexperienced players), but your argument contains very little to prove that connection. Then there is this thing called reality. Your "analysis" completely ignores his days in Chicago. When it comes to trusting who- between our young players and our seasoned coach- is more prepared on Sunday, and has a better grasp of what it takes to win an NFL football game, I trust Jauron, for the same reason I trust that all you old farts are right to tell me to buzz off and come back when I get a clue! This so wrong on so many levels, it's shocking. When I hear this phrase, the first thing that pops into my head is the Britney Spears interview back 2003-2004 where she says we should just trust the president. (Side note: said president graduated from Harvard and Princeton. If that is not proof enough that an Ivy League education does not guarantee success in a chosen profession, nothing will.) 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Ramius Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 Big Cat - what part of Jauron's history makes you think's he more of the 13 win coach than the 4, 5, 6, 7, 7, 7 win coach in his other seasons? Also, please refer to this post i made yesterday, doing some basic math on Jauron's coaching history. http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?s=&am...t&p=1220021 The 13-3 season is what those of that work with numbers refer to as an outlier. Sure, with only a few seasons, you cannot toss out a 13-3 season. But when the seasons pile on, and you consistently see win numbers between 5-8, you begin to realize that the 13 is nothing more than a bad measurement, a statistical outlier, and has no real relevance to judging jauron's ability to win. Statistically speaking, given Jauron's coaching record (and i eliminated the 5 game interim in detroit and did not count this season), Dick Jauron averages 7 wins per season, with a standard deviation of 2.88 wins. That means that his 13 win season is 2 standard deviations away from the average. Mathematically speaking, Dick Jauron's 13 win season represents a data point that represents less than 5% of the population (in this case, the number of Jauron's wins in any given season he will coach) To take my point even further, lets toss out that 13 win season and see what happens... Dick Jauron's average win per season? 6 Standard Deviation? 1.26 Turns out that the 13 win season extremely skews the data set in DJ's favor. Now we're talking about 95% of Jauron's seasons resulting in 3.5-8.5 wins. That isnt going to make the playoffs. Also notice that when compared to his 6 other seasons, a 13 win season is over 5 standard deviations away from his average. Those types of measurements simply do not occur. The mathematical probability of that is highly unlikely, nearing impossibility. So again, why do you feel so strongly that Jauron is a 13 (near impossible) win coach over a 6-7 win coach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted November 20, 2008 Share Posted November 20, 2008 My worldview is starkly different from some of the posters here at TSW. Print your post out, and put it, along with a snapshot of yourself, in a sealed envelope. Write on it: To be opened when (your name) is 50 years old. Report back in 26 years with your reaction to re-reading what you said in November, 2008. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted November 20, 2008 Author Share Posted November 20, 2008 It is quite possible to be smart and to be a smartass at the same time. My wife keeps reminding of that. I would be surprised if anybody has a problem with the way you put a thought together. What people are disagreeing with you is over what you put into your thoughts. The above paragraph is an example. If you majored in Marketing, that's a great paragraph. It is full of fluff that is meaningless, and designed to "polish" the image of your subject. DJ graduated from Yale, so what? DJ achieved 1st team Ivy League 3 times, so what? DJ made the pro bowl as rookie in the NFL, so what? We are not evaluating DJ the player, we are evaluating DJ the coach. The only piece of relevant info for your case is DJ's 23 years of coaching experience. More fluff. There is nothing in there that is relevant to Jaurons coaching credentials or ability. See, here's your problem. All of that above, from the very start to this point: nicely written. Your put thoughts together quite nicely. Substance: Other than DJ has coached in the NFL for 23 years, nothing. Zip. I understand the point you are TRYING to make (DJ is being unintentionally "undermined" by young, inexperienced players), but your argument contains very little to prove that connection. Then there is this thing called reality. Your "analysis" completely ignores his days in Chicago. This so wrong on so many levels, it's shocking. When I hear this phrase, the first thing that pops into my head is the Britney Spears interview back 2003-2004 where she says we should just trust the president. (Side note: said president graduated from Harvard and Princeton. If that is not proof enough that an Ivy League education does not guarantee success in a chosen profession, nothing will.) Okay, for someone who took the time to pick apart the logic of my post, I think you're taking some great liberty comparing Dick's path to the Ivy League with W's. And yes, Billsvet, my alma mater is about as close to "Ivy League" caliber as they come. As for everything else, the whole point of what I wrote was to echo a regret many of us share about the NFL, especially during the off season: it's a player's league. It's the players who hold bargaining power, it's the players who are responsible for generating a team's revenue, and it's the players that play the games. Allowing that to inform your assessment, why does all accountability fall into a coach's lap? More importantly, though, the youth of our team is something which cannot be overlooked. I am a believer that a coach cannot be blamed for turnovers- something I believe has categorically killed this team over the last four games. So in the great "who's to blame" debate I wanted to offer another way of looking at the coach/player dynamic. Older guys at TSW like to rib the younger guys , while at the same time taking pride in the youth of our team. My purpose was to offer their same logic (Dick, like venerated posters here might actually know a thing or two about being in the NFL and the players, like most guys ages 22-25, can astound their elders with flashes of profound idiocy) to the notion that Dick is NOT responsible for everything these young guys do. I wasn't trying to convince anyone that Dick was a great coach (well, I kinda was, subtly, but you called me out on it!). Ramius' logic for proving he's a bad coach is based in numbers, and therefor easier to argue, but let me reiterate, the whole point was to suggest that Dick probably does have a clue, but is limited by the youthful indiscretion of his players. I firmly believe that said indiscretion is enough of a factor that each of the last four losses (all close games), could have had a different outcome if we had some more experienced players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 And yes, Billsvet, my alma mater is about as close to "Ivy League" caliber as they come. My post was sarcasm, based on a downright hilarious thread which developed earlier this year. It involved what appeared to be a younger guy talking about how "with it" he was despite going to an "Ivy League-caliber" school. As far as being on this board, if you want to let on who you are, fine. But I don't make a habit out of it. The problem with people in their late teens and early twenties who populate this board is they haven't been watching football as closely and long enough to know the pains of this franchise. And if you talk to those who watched the team since Day 1, you might better appreciate their struggle. It's been nothing but mediocrity since 2000, which isn't a whole lot different than the late 60s and early 70s. Back then it was a fight between horrible and mediocre. It's a trend with the Bills, as someone said in another thread, that Buffalo gravitates between long periods of mediocre and short ones of success. The Bills were good in the mid 60s, mid-70s, early 80s, and late 80s through late 90s. The last eight years (during the salary cap era) have been demoralizing. Other than the Polian years and results, Buffalo does indeed move between bad, mediocre, with a sprinkling of success. It's fine if you want to be that optimistic, but you need to see more of just the past 8 years. Which I'm guessing is what you've really watched intently. As for DJ, he's had immense personnel control over this team. If it's too young, he shares a great deal of blame for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted November 21, 2008 Author Share Posted November 21, 2008 My post was sarcasm, based on a downright hilarious thread which developed earlier this year. It involved what appeared to be a younger guy talking about how "with it" he was despite going to an "Ivy League-caliber" school. As far as being on this board, if you want to let on who you are, fine. But I don't make a habit out of it. The problem with people in their late teens and early twenties who populate this board is they haven't been watching football as closely and long enough to know the pains of this franchise. And if you talk to those who watched the team since Day 1, you might better appreciate their struggle. It's been nothing but mediocrity since 2000, which isn't a whole lot different than the late 60s and early 70s. Back then it was a fight between horrible and mediocre. It's a trend with the Bills, as someone said in another thread, that Buffalo gravitates between long periods of mediocre and short ones of success. The Bills were good in the mid 60s, mid-70s, early 80s, and late 80s through late 90s. The last eight years (during the salary cap era) have been demoralizing. Other than the Polian years and results, Buffalo does indeed move between bad, mediocre, with a sprinkling of success. It's fine if you want to be that optimistic, but you need to see more of just the past 8 years. Which I'm guessing is what you've really watched intently. As for DJ, he's had immense personnel control over this team. If it's too young, he shares a great deal of blame for that. I don't generally make a habit of exposing myself on this board, but it tends to happen on its own at PPP, largely because I have a "young person's" grasp of reality that I simply can't help. Doesn't mean I shouldn't be taken seriously though, just like I should be taken seriously as a fan of the Buffalo Bills- I didn't miss out on a lifetime of suffering by choice, believe me I would have loved to have been right there with ya! Even my recollections of Jim, Thurman and the gang are fuzzy because I was so young then, so yes, you're right to assume my Bills "awakening" happened more or less in the last eight years. Just because I didn't witness the Bills' history for myself, doesn't mean I'm completely unaware of it. But, when I asses our present team, it's tough to factor in the pre-Jauron/Levy turmoil since the team went through such an aggressive overhaul during the dawning days of our current regime. With that in mind, I don't ignore the frustration older fans have developed over time, but I do write it off as you amassing a lifetime's worth of heart ache, leaving you far more jaded than I could reasonably be. You can't fault me for being more optimistic about the coaching, about the front office, or about what the Bills are capable of because I simply don't have the personal experiences to inform me otherwise. May be it makes more sense to say that I'm a way bigger Bills fan than my dad, so in a sense, I'm first generation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynical Posted November 21, 2008 Share Posted November 21, 2008 Okay, for someone who took the time to pick apart the logic of my post, I think you're taking some great liberty comparing Dick's path to the Ivy League with W's. And yes, Billsvet, my alma mater is about as close to "Ivy League" caliber as they come. There was some liberty, but the concept was the same. As another poster said (to paraphrase) there are a lot of intelligent people that have under achieved. Jauron was not the first, and he will not be the last. As for everything else, the whole point of what I wrote was to echo a regret many of us share about the NFL, especially during the off season: it's a player's league. It's the players who hold bargaining power, it's the players who are responsible for generating a team's revenue, and it's the players that play the games. Allowing that to inform your assessment, why does all accountability fall into a coach's lap? More importantly, though, the youth of our team is something which cannot be overlooked. First, the players do not hold all the bargaining power. Jason Peters is a case in point. How much bargaining power did he have? As for the rest of that paragraph, welcome to America and to capitalism. It's the employees that are responsible for generating the revenue of a company, because it it the employees that create the product or provide the service. Unfortunately, that is also not totally true. And it's the same way in football. I'll spare the bandwidth and the space, and not go into a whole scenario as to why, but just know that ultimately, the HC is held accountable in the same way mid level managers are held accountable in a company. When the team is not performing well, the owner is not going to call the players in and find out why they are not meeting expectations. That's why he hired coaches. It is their job to get the players to meet expectations. It is the coaches he will hold accountable for the failure. All accountability falls on the coaches because it is all their decisions that has put them where they are. The players did not decide to become younger as a team. The coaches made that decision. The players did not decide to switch to the Tampa 2 defense, the coaches did. The players did not decide to stop/start blitzing, the coaches did. Ok, what about execution. The coaches made a decision regarding a scheme, and the players failed to execute it during the game. If it is one or two players, it is the players fault. If it's a group of players, that is usually an indicator of a bad decision. And who is held accountable for the decisions? The coaches. I am a believer that a coach cannot be blamed for turnovers- something I believe has categorically killed this team over the last four games. I can. In fact, I suggest you spend some time researching Marty Shottenheimer, and his days coaching the Cleveland Browns and Kansas City Chiefs. His teams consistently ranked near the top of league every year in takeaway/turnover ratio. That's due to his emphasis on those concepts. In other words, that is something that can be coached into a team. So in the great "who's to blame" debate I wanted to offer another way of looking at the coach/player dynamic. Older guys at TSW like to rib the younger guys , while at the same time taking pride in the youth of our team. My purpose was to offer their same logic (Dick, like venerated posters here might actually know a thing or two about being in the NFL and the players, like most guys ages 22-25, can astound their elders with flashes of profound idiocy) to the notion that Dick is NOT responsible for everything these young guys do. I wasn't trying to convince anyone that Dick was a great coach (well, I kinda was, subtly, but you called me out on it!). Ramius' logic for proving he's a bad coach is based in numbers, and therefor easier to argue, but let me reiterate, the whole point was to suggest that Dick probably does have a clue, but is limited by the youthful indiscretion of his players. And therein lies the great fallacy. As I pointed out in your post, you provide no such evidence. In fact, regarding all Jauron supporters, this is a common issue. They never provide facts as to why he is good. They make assumptions. They provide excuses. But no evidence. The biggest assumption made is he's "a good coach". This assumption drives every Jauron supporter to find the "reason" (a/k/a excuse) he has yet to live up to that expectation. Amazingly enough, not a single "reason" points to Jauron. Fact: Jauron posted a losing record in Chicago. Supporters: the "GM" was out to get him, he had crappy teams, he had no QB Fact: Jauron has posted a losing record while being the HC of the Buffalo Bills Supporters: team was in chaos when he took over, youth, all those "injuries" You see what I am getting at? Not a fact in support of the argument he is a "good" coach. Just excuses of why he failed to meet expectations. I firmly believe that said indiscretion is enough of a factor that each of the last four losses (all close games), could have had a different outcome if we had some more experienced players. Don't even start with the "ifs". Last time I checked, there were 160+ plays during that game. That's 160+ (plays) x n "if possibilities" (per play) that could have impacted the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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