ExiledInIllinois Posted November 23, 2008 Posted November 23, 2008 I would agree that american cars--well many of them --are just as good as foreign now. I think mercedes and BMW are kind of a joke with their maintenance costs. ridiculous. You do for the performance though... My Pacifica has the odd 19" Chrysler wheels... Only a few tire companies make the size to fit those rims and vehicle... At the Michelins that fir at 300 bucks a pop are one hell of a tire! I also heard that Mercedes was thinking about just eliminating the oil dipstick... One just takes it into the dealer! They don't even want you checking the oil...
John Adams Posted November 23, 2008 Posted November 23, 2008 Sludge Buckets Still somehow they are the darlings of Consumer Reports. Great source. I'm sure to believe that over Consumer Reports every day of the week! Keep trolling with this American cars are awesome stuff. It's hilarious.
pBills Posted November 23, 2008 Posted November 23, 2008 Just face it American cars have gotten much better. It's a fact.
Steely Dan Posted November 23, 2008 Posted November 23, 2008 This is the real world calling with your reality check. My business gives raises every year. There is no Union in my operation and never will be. Why do we give raises? To keep good people and discourage them from leaving. See how the market works without Unions. I stand by comment. Except I believe that salaried workers may not see it decrease and the upper management wouldn't see a decrease as much if at all but definitely without a minimum wage that would decrease. Look at how the free market worked before unions, 'Nuff said.
KD in CA Posted November 23, 2008 Posted November 23, 2008 I stand by comment. Except I believe that salaried workers may not see it decrease and the upper management wouldn't see a decrease as much if at all but definitely without a minimum wage that would decrease. Who said anything about repealing the minimum wage? Eliminating greedy unions isn't going to change federal minimum wage laws. Look at how the free market worked before unions, 'Nuff said. Please stop with the ignorant strawman about what the world was like before cars were even invented. Also, why haven't you answered my question?
KD in CA Posted November 23, 2008 Posted November 23, 2008 Since pro union crowd likes to label anyone who doesn't toe the union line as 'pro-management', I thought I'd highlight an absurd stat I just saw on Face the Nation. Toyota CEO -- $1MM comp; $5B profit for the year Ford CEO -- $21.7MM comp; $7.5B loss for the year GM CEO -- $15.7MM comp; $15.9B loss for the year I would support 100% a policy that if one dime of taxpayer money goes to these dinosaur companies, it comes with the stipulation that guaranteed exec comp have a cap of $1MM annually, and anything above that is a direct function of net profit.
Chef Jim Posted November 23, 2008 Posted November 23, 2008 Most companies -esp in manufacturing--which is the subject at hand--don't pay their employees on commission. So before throwing around sophomoric insults you need to focus on the subject. Health ins. is part of the pay package.Companies will not pay the employees at a level which would make the co. unprofitable.(ohhhhh--exc for GM &FORD ) Hourly and salaried employees naturally forego some wages for benefits. These benefits are gladly paid for by the employer due to the payroll tax savings. No, seeing we were talking about my company and my employees I was focusing on the subject.
Chef Jim Posted November 23, 2008 Posted November 23, 2008 You are a tool. The unions are there to make sure a fair wage is paid. How much do you make? I bet you're overpaid for the job you do. Let me decide how much you deserve for your work. If you don't want me to do that then stop doing it to other people. Get it? No I don't get it. I can't have an opinion regarding who I feel is overpaid but I union can come in and demand a business pay their employees more or they're going on strike. That's a wonderful world you live in. I can't do that but the unions can.
ExiledInIllinois Posted November 23, 2008 Posted November 23, 2008 Great source. I'm sure to believe that over Consumer Reports every day of the week! Keep trolling with this American cars are awesome stuff. It's hilarious. Just goes to show you how everybody falls in line with CR's and the darlings out there... Lemmings... Buy your Toyota's and change your oil every 3k... I am sure there won't be any problems? Did I say 3k... That should be a farce today... No way it should be that low. But, if you don't follow everything to a tee--- I am sure Toyota's got your back--- NOT! Of course... Nobody will ever have a problem... Even if you just run and gas the thing... Just dump it in 2 years. Funny how people fall into line with group think. God... I hope the US big auto fails... We will see what will happen when the American whipping boy auto companies aren't around anymore to feed off of.
VOR Posted November 23, 2008 Posted November 23, 2008 Since pro union crowd likes to label anyone who doesn't toe the union line as 'pro-management', I thought I'd highlight an absurd stat I just saw on Face the Nation. Toyota CEO -- $1MM comp; $5B profit for the year Ford CEO -- $21.7MM comp; $7.5B loss for the year GM CEO -- $15.7MM comp; $15.9B loss for the year I would support 100% a policy that if one dime of taxpayer money goes to these dinosaur companies, it comes with the stipulation that guaranteed exec comp have a cap of $1MM annually, and anything above that is a direct function of net profit. Again, the stipulations were that execs wouldn't get any bonuses, the gubment would be a shareholder in the companies, and there would be full financial transparency. Of course any/all of those could and probably would still be manipulated to make the rich richer, while having the gubment having a say in how they're run doesn't sound like a good idea.
pBills Posted November 24, 2008 Posted November 24, 2008 Who said anything about repealing the minimum wage? Eliminating greedy unions isn't going to change federal minimum wage laws. Please stop with the ignorant strawman about what the world was like before cars were even invented. Also, why haven't you answered my question? I just wish you would stop with this "greedy" union nonsense. Does not make sense in any way... yes you will respond that all union workers make so much money per hour. I don't see a lot of union guys/gals living in mansions or driving Cadillacs/BMWs or Mercedes.
ExiledInIllinois Posted November 24, 2008 Posted November 24, 2008 I just wish you would stop with this "greedy" union nonsense. Does not make sense in any way... yes you will respond that all union workers make so much money per hour. I don't see a lot of union guys/gals living in mansions or driving Cadillacs/BMWs or Mercedes. You are never going to reason with these dolts and their straw man arguments... They will have you believe it was all labor and union greed that killed a place like Buffalo... Then it was taxes that is killing NYS... Blah... Blah... Blah... Same way the Japs keep people coming back for products that people preceive to be superior whenin reality they are no better if not inferior in some respect. For some, the real reasons are just not sexy enough... You can't directly play person A or gov't B... It is a one-way street with a lot of their arguments because if they actually saw what the truth is a lot of the basis for their arguments would fall apart.
KD in CA Posted November 24, 2008 Posted November 24, 2008 I just wish you would stop with this "greedy" union nonsense. Does not make sense in any way... yes you will respond that all union workers make so much money per hour. I don't see a lot of union guys/gals living in mansions or driving Cadillacs/BMWs or Mercedes. So unless someone drives a Cadillacs/BMW/Mercedes they can't possibly be overpaid? I don't care who is living in a mansion as long as their comp is relative to the value they provide. In a free and mature economy, that is what is supposed to dictate comp. But that's not what's happening at the Big 3. Their model is broken to the tune of BILLIONS of dollars, partly because they have paid people far most than their value dictates. And most of those people are part of a controlled labor pool that uses it's monopoly along with gov't assistance to extort the maximum possible dollars out of the automakers. How is that not greedy? How is that any different from any other monopoly that takes advantage of its position? Hey, I get it -- you are a union guy looking to protect your own deal. And that's fine with me -- as long as you are not asking for MY tax dollars to pay you. That is what the automakers are doing which is totally unconscionable.
ExiledInIllinois Posted November 24, 2008 Posted November 24, 2008 But that's not what's happening at the Big 3. Their model is broken to the tune of BILLIONS of dollars, partly because they have paid people far most than their value dictates. Then their value should be held in the higehest regards... You need a car to get to work everyday? Their (manufacturing) value is dictated by other people undermining it. That is the purpose of the union and sticking together, so your value won't be undermined. Some of the most important jobs in our society pay the least benefits for all the good they do. Now I should demand more at work... For 1/2 on the job out of 8, I just made sure tens of millions of dollars of commodites made it to market professionally, without an injury, and better yet a breakdown stopping future commodities from being brought to market.
TheKing Posted November 24, 2008 Posted November 24, 2008 Since pro union crowd likes to label anyone who doesn't toe the union line as 'pro-management', I thought I'd highlight an absurd stat I just saw on Face the Nation. Toyota CEO -- $1MM comp; $5B profit for the year Ford CEO -- $21.7MM comp; $7.5B loss for the year GM CEO -- $15.7MM comp; $15.9B loss for the year I would support 100% a policy that if one dime of taxpayer money goes to these dinosaur companies, it comes with the stipulation that guaranteed exec comp have a cap of $1MM annually, and anything above that is a direct function of net profit. I agree. This idea that the taxpayers bail out companies who then decide what the exec wages are is ridiculous. The same thing happened with the bank bailouts in the 80's and the golden parachutes for execs. This is a no win game. We have the politicians destroying the manufacturing base with thier damned free trade agreements and now we are being asked to pay for the result with no control over how the money is distributed. And while this is taking place Bush is in Asia preaching about not relenting on free trade. We are being destroyed by the very people we elect. And Obama will be no different, he'll just talk a better game but his actions won't be any less treasonous.
ExiledInIllinois Posted November 24, 2008 Posted November 24, 2008 We are being destroyed by the very people we elect. Business didn't have to flee the north for the sun belt and then to overseas. We are being eaten from within dating back to the very first case of corporate welfare... Even that company didn't stick around long enough for taxes to kick in. They just hung around for the breaks.
pBills Posted November 24, 2008 Posted November 24, 2008 So unless someone drives a Cadillacs/BMW/Mercedes they can't possibly be overpaid? I don't care who is living in a mansion as long as their comp is relative to the value they provide. In a free and mature economy, that is what is supposed to dictate comp. But that's not what's happening at the Big 3. Their model is broken to the tune of BILLIONS of dollars, partly because they have paid people far most than their value dictates. And most of those people are part of a controlled labor pool that uses it's monopoly along with gov't assistance to extort the maximum possible dollars out of the automakers. How is that not greedy? How is that any different from any other monopoly that takes advantage of its position? Hey, I get it -- you are a union guy looking to protect your own deal. And that's fine with me -- as long as you are not asking for MY tax dollars to pay you. That is what the automakers are doing which is totally unconscionable. The luxury car point is simple... they are expensive. Most union people I know can't afford them. However, most people here believe that union workers make so much money, should be able to afford one of those vehicles huh? Looking to protect my own deal? I work within the union because I believe in the labor movement and because of the job description. I don't promote the union to save myself in any way. I promote the union because I have seen first hand how being unionized can help workers and their families. And I get it as well... you dislike unions, think they are a waste. You are only out for your bottom line, who cares about anyone else. Got it. I think it's unconscionable for the government to just toss money into every failing bank and then back off when it comes to the Big 3. How come these banks don't have to provide a business plan for the money they receive to make it's being used correctly? Let's face it, some banks took the money and sat on it instead of using for what it's for. Other financial institutions like AIG just wasting money. No one has issues with that either. The big 3 are being blasted for bad business plans, bad leadership, etc. Shouldn't the financial institutions be held to the same standards. A failing business is a failing business. Yet, people are backing off on the bail out money that could help save millions of jobs. Makes no sense to me.
tennesseeboy Posted November 24, 2008 Posted November 24, 2008 Bankruptcy with special provisions and with the feds operating as financier for the restructuring is the way to go. Dump or restructure legacy costs, probably merge the better parts of the big 3 and move on. The steel industry in America has begun to be competitive after going through bankruptcy, no reason the auto industry can't do the same. The feds go into the financing only to ward off the obvious takeover that would happen when Toyota, Hyundia or the Chinese walk in to buy the companies for pennies in bankruptcy.
Chef Jim Posted November 24, 2008 Posted November 24, 2008 I just wish you would stop with this "greedy" union nonsense. Does not make sense in any way... yes you will respond that all union workers make so much money per hour. I don't see a lot of union guys/gals living in mansions or driving Cadillacs/BMWs or Mercedes. For me it's not so much the current pas as it it the defined benefit plan that pays their retirement for the rest of thier lives. I'd like to know what the average retirement age is for UAWs but I bet it's mid to late 50's. That gives lots of people thirty plus years living off the company. That is why most companies went to defined contribution plans and the main reason, in my opinion, why the US auto industry is in such bad shape. The luxury car point is simple... they are expensive. Most union people I know can't afford them. However, most people here believe that union workers make so much money, should be able to afford one of those vehicles huh? In regard to this statement I don't think people are bitching saying they're getting rich, it's that they're way overpaid for their job skill level.
pBills Posted November 24, 2008 Posted November 24, 2008 For me it's not so much the current pas as it it the defined benefit plan that pays their retirement for the rest of thier lives. I'd like to know what the average retirement age is for UAWs but I bet it's mid to late 50's. That gives lots of people thirty plus years living off the company. That is why most companies went to defined contribution plans and the main reason, in my opinion, why the US auto industry is in such bad shape. In regard to this statement I don't think people are bitching saying they're getting rich, it's that they're way overpaid for their job skill level. My father retired from GM when he was 60. Offered an early retirement. I believe retirement, unless offered early package is 62. May be wrong on that though. Who's to say they are overpaid? What do you think they should make per hour if you could set the rate?
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