AUTO BAILOUT?

[Tcali]

Nice try Einstein. My employees all work on comission. They're responsible for their paycheck. We give them health insurance.

Most companies -esp in manufacturing--which is the subject at hand--don't pay their employees on commission. So before throwing around sophomoric insults you need to focus on the subject.

 

Health ins. is part of the pay package.Companies will not pay the employees at a level which would make the co. unprofitable.(ohhhhh--exc for GM &FORD )

Hourly and salaried employees naturally forego some wages for benefits. These benefits are gladly paid for by the employer due to the payroll tax savings.

[pBills]

You are being overpaid when your company pays way more per employeee than its foreign competitors...and you are asking for a taxpayer bailout. The govt and taxpayers DO have something to say about the wages of an industry when it has its hands in our pants.

 

 

 

Sad thing is that pretty much EVERY american worker makes more than the foreign competitors. I may charge $500 for one quick project, which is on the cheap. Some dude from India is willing to do the same thing for $50. No one can compete with that.

 

The U.S. Import/Export is f'd up. Not necessarily fair to U.S.

 

Interesting thing I heard this morning. GM vehicles in sold in China are to be considered luxury, some.. the best. Selling more and more over there. Here... people think they are junk. Sad.

[Steely Dan]

You are being overpaid when your company pays way more per employeee than its foreign competitors...and you are asking for a taxpayer bailout. The govt and taxpayers DO have something to say about the wages of an industry when it has its hands in our pants.

 

I agree that the UAW is largely responsible for forcing factories to be built over seas.

 

 

I work on comission so what you're trying to do doesn't work here. But let's say I made $50 per hour. That should be between me and the person who signs my paychecks shouldn't it? Why do I need a third party to help me with that? If I feel I'm worth $60, I negotiate with my employer. He either says yes or no. Then it's my decision to accept his offer or go someplace else.

 

I'm not deciding what auto employees make, their boss does because they've caved to the unions. How much does a union assembly line employee make an hour compared to me? If you needed to I could figure my hourly rate. Compare what I do to what they do and we'll see who's overpaid.

 

You have no idea why unions were created in the first place do you? Unions were created because the free market was effing the workers. Left to it's own devices the free market will screw the worker greaseless. If not for unions you wouldn't be making close to what your making. Unions forced industries to give benefits and a fair wage. If the free market worked as you seem to think it would then unions would never have had to be formed in the first place. A lot of the things you enjoy as a worker are because unions forced other business' that weren't unionized to keep up.

 

When I was in college I worked for Domino's pizza and the local franchisee was a really cheap bastard. He kept trying to make it so he could legally pay his drivers under minimum wage. If an employee makes a certain %age of their salary through tips the employer can pay them under minimum. He succeed in doing that soon after I left.

 

If there wasn't a minimum wage most of the jobs hourly and salaried would not increase at the levels they have in the past because business' would just stop paying so much. Especially in an economy where jobs are tough to find.

 

Look at what deregulation has done for the economy. Unions force business' to fairly regulate employee pay and benefits.

[VOR]

I agree that the UAW is largely responsible for forcing factories to be built over seas.

 

 

 

 

You have no idea why unions were created in the first place do you? Unions were created because the free market was effing the workers. Left to it's own devices the free market will screw the worker greaseless. If not for unions you wouldn't be making close to what your making. Unions forced industries to give benefits and a fair wage. If the free market worked as you seem to think it would then unions would never have had to be formed in the first place. A lot of the things you enjoy as a worker are because unions forced other business' that weren't unionized to keep up.

 

When I was in college I worked for Domino's pizza and the local franchisee was a really cheap bastard. He kept trying to make it so he could legally pay his drivers under minimum wage. If an employee makes a certain %age of their salary through tips the employer can pay them under minimum. He succeed in doing that soon after I left.

 

If there wasn't a minimum wage most of the jobs hourly and salaried would not increase at the levels they have in the past because business' would just stop paying so much. Especially in an economy where jobs are tough to find.

 

Look at what deregulation has done for the economy. Unions force business' to fairly regulate employee pay and benefits.

You're comparing a non-service job with a service one. Auto workers don't get tips.

 

And while unions had their place in the past, they've served mostly to drive-up costs and drive down quality. To the point where you have what we're seeing now.

[Steely Dan]

You're comparing a non-service job with a service one. Auto workers don't get tips.

 

And while unions had their place in the past, they've served mostly to drive-up costs and drive down quality. To the point where you have what we're seeing now.

 

My point is that given the choice, business' would decrease salaries over all jobs. Service or non service.

[VOR]

My point is that given the choice, business' would decrease salaries over all jobs. Service or non service.

Well that's hardly a revelation. Businesses are there to make money, so they're always looking for ways to cut costs. And in the beginning when there weren't unions, workers got screwed. But as I said, since that time, unions have mostly served to increase costs and decrease quality.

[KD in CA]

My point is that given the choice, business' would decrease salaries over all jobs. Service or non service.

 

Your point is on the top of your head. In a free market, any employer who simply reduces everyone's pay below market value will see its good employees leaving for better opportunities. It doesn't seem to be a problem for the vast majority of people in this country to be paid "fairly" despite the absence of unions.

 

Stop swallowing the desperate and unsupported union propaganda.

[Steely Dan]

Your point is on the top of your head. In a free market, any employer who simply reduces everyone's pay below market value will see its good employees leaving for better opportunities. It doesn't seem to be a problem for the vast majority of people in this country to be paid "fairly" despite the absence of unions.

 

Stop swallowing the desperate and unsupported union propaganda.

 

Before unions were they? Trust me unions have done a lot more than you're willing to acknowledge.

[KD in CA]

Before unions were they? Trust me unions have done a lot more than you're willing to acknowledge.

 

Before unions when? The 19th Century?!?

 

I love how you guys can't seem to comprehend that the world has changed a little bit since the days described in books written by Sinclair or Zinn. The size and diversity of our economy (not to mention labor laws) are light years beyond where it was back in the days of abusive sweatshops. That means people have opportunities to pursue thousands of different types jobs. But yeah, without unions I'm sure they will all be whipped and beaten and forced to eat off the floor.

 

But I'd like to hear you explain why that doesn't seem to be big problem with the 90% of non-union employees in this country?

[ExiledInIllinois]

But yeah, without unions I'm sure they will all be whipped and beaten and forced to eat off the floor.

 

Close. They lock the dolt workers into the Walmart stores and force them to work while off the time clock.

 

Do you like seeing a UL, IBEW or UA label on products you buy for your family's house? Or do you go it alone?

[John Adams]

My point is that given the choice, business' would decrease salaries over all jobs. Service or non service.

 

This is the real world calling with your reality check.

 

My business gives raises every year. There is no Union in my operation and never will be. Why do we give raises? To keep good people and discourage them from leaving.

 

See how the market works without Unions.

[pBills]

You're comparing a non-service job with a service one. Auto workers don't get tips.

 

And while unions had their place in the past, they've served mostly to drive-up costs and drive down quality. To the point where you have what we're seeing now.

 

 

Completely wrong on that. There is still a huge need for unions. I have been on organizing drives where new citizens were told that if they didn't work normally 65 hours a week sometimes more (at normal base pay which was horrible) they would be fired or the INS would deport them. If they mentioned union, they would be fired or deported. As new citizens they did not fully understand what was happening.

 

There job was not one to be working those kind of hours with barely a break.. Very dangerous. So dangerous that one guy being sleep deprived accidently pulled out in front of a tractor trailer... killed him by decapitation. The lovely company gave his family a grand to be quiet about his hours.

[Tcali]

Sad thing is that pretty much EVERY american worker makes more than the foreign competitors. I may charge $500 for one quick project, which is on the cheap. Some dude from India is willing to do the same thing for $50. No one can compete with that.

 

The U.S. Import/Export is f'd up. Not necessarily fair to U.S.

 

Interesting thing I heard this morning. GM vehicles in sold in China are to be considered luxury, some.. the best. Selling more and more over there. Here... people think they are junk. Sad.

Good points....

Let me clarify though.....American workers make waaay more in GM and FORD auto plants than americans working in The USA in HONDA TOYOTA and NISSAN plants

[pBills]

Good points....

Let me clarify though.....American workers make waaay more in GM and FORD auto plants than americans working in The USA in HONDA TOYOTA and NISSAN plants

 

 

True. The benefit packages are outstanding. I also agree that a lot can be scaled back with the contracts. And a lot has been already. Unfortunately, the largest concession does not take place till 2010.

 

All sides has to realize cuts have to happen for the good of their careers and company.

[ExiledInIllinois]

I will take a bet right now.

 

If they let the Domestic Big 3 fail... Just watch the quality of the Jap Big 3 fail.

 

It is already happening for sometime... I wouldn't buy a Toyota for the shear fact that their engines sludge.

 

October 2008: TOYOTA ENGINES ARE STILL FAILING--thrown rods through block, failed emissions control components, engine FIRES, sudden loss of oil, SAFETY CONCERNS! Please leave your contact information (especially e-mail address) for this petition author and file online complaints with the Center for Auto Safety (CAS) and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) online!! IMPORTANT: send TMC, Inc., a CERTIFIED LETTER to formally notify it and request a resolution. Toyota continues to STONEWALL CUSTOMERS by blaming them for the engine problems! Spread the word, start a web site, and hold #1 Toyota accountable!! A FORMAL RECALL is needed and the U.S. Government needs to lead the way!! The EPA MUST get involved!! **Contact me at CBLAKE@EROLS.COM.** Camry, Avalon, Highlander, Sienna, Solara, Corolla, Rav4, Matrix, Tacoma, 4Runner, Lexus RX300, Lexus ES300 ALL ToyotaOwnersOnline fan enthusiast club (NOT!) buyatoyota? READ BELOW! OFFICIAL Toyota TMC complaints!

 

Sludge Buckets

 

Still somehow they are the darlings of Consumer Reports.

 

Any takers?

 

Of course, this is a long term bet over a bunch of years.

 

And yes... This has been going on for sometime... The Japs do hide things well in their business model... The big sludgers were from 1997-2002.

 

For me this is a problem and has been for 10 years or so... I don't dump cars... I usually rack up in the 100's of k miles and keep my vehicles for 10+ years.

 

We will see in this economy where people won't be able to dump cars and get a new one every 3 or 4 years...

[Tcali]

I will take a bet right now.

 

If they let the Domestic Big 3 fail... Just watch the quality of the Jap Big 3 fail.

 

It is already happening for sometime... I wouldn't buy a Toyota for the shear fact that their engines sludge.

 

October 2008: TOYOTA ENGINES ARE STILL FAILING--thrown rods through block, failed emissions control components, engine FIRES, sudden loss of oil, SAFETY CONCERNS! Please leave your contact information (especially e-mail address) for this petition author and file online complaints with the Center for Auto Safety (CAS) and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) online!! IMPORTANT: send TMC, Inc., a CERTIFIED LETTER to formally notify it and request a resolution. Toyota continues to STONEWALL CUSTOMERS by blaming them for the engine problems! Spread the word, start a web site, and hold #1 Toyota accountable!! A FORMAL RECALL is needed and the U.S. Government needs to lead the way!! The EPA MUST get involved!! **Contact me at CBLAKE@EROLS.COM.** Camry, Avalon, Highlander, Sienna, Solara, Corolla, Rav4, Matrix, Tacoma, 4Runner, Lexus RX300, Lexus ES300 ALL ToyotaOwnersOnline fan enthusiast club (NOT!) buyatoyota? READ BELOW! OFFICIAL Toyota TMC complaints!

 

Sludge Buckets

 

Still somehow they are the darlings of Consumer Reports.

 

Any takers?

 

Of course, this is a long term bet over a bunch of years.

 

And yes... This has been going on for sometime... The Japs do hide things well in their business model... The big sludgers were from 1997-2002.

 

For me this is a problem and has been for 10 years or so... I don't dump cars... I usually rack up in the 100's of k miles and keep my vehicles for 10+ years.

 

We will see in this economy where people won't be able to dump cars and get a new one every 3 or 4 years...

i had a 1991 camry---sold it at 264k miles....then bought a 1997 lexus es300--still driving it with 235k on it--runs like a charm

[pBills]

All I know is that I have owned nothing but GM. Never had a major issue.

[ExiledInIllinois]

All I know is that I have owned nothing but GM. Never had a major issue.

 

Same here with my Chryslers and now a Jeep.

 

I think people who have problems with the Jap Big 3 are, IMO, less likely to come out about it in fear of going against the air of supremecy those automakers have established in their business models. You go into a Jap dealer with a problem and they will blame you right out of the place... A lot of recalls get hid too!

[ExiledInIllinois]

i had a 1991 camry---sold it at 264k miles....then bought a 1997 lexus es300--still driving it with 235k on it--runs like a charm

 

Good for you... Just like all other companies... Your 1997 at 235 is still putting on about 20k a year...

 

[Tcali]

Same here with my Chryslers and now a Jeep.

 

I think people who have problems with the Jap Big 3 are, IMO, less likely to come out about it in fear of going against the air of supremecy those automakers have established in their business models. You go into a Jap dealer with a problem and they will blame you right out of the place... A lot of recalls get hid too!

I would agree that american cars--well many of them --are just as good as foreign now. I think mercedes and BMW are kind of a joke with their maintenance costs. ridiculous.