AUTO BAILOUT?

[Steely Dan]

I've never worked union before so I only know what people have to put up with before becoming unionized. I see no problems. You're an idiot.

 

So you only have an outside belief and have never had an inside look and yet you believe your opinion is more informed? Who's the real idiot?

[Chef Jim]

So you only have an outside belief and have never had an inside look and yet you believe your opinion is more informed? Who's the real idiot?

 

Read the post I responded to ya schmuck! I've worked in some of the biggest hell holes in the country under some of the most inhumane conditions ever and I wouldn't want someone to charge me to make it better. I chose that career and knew what I was getting into and it's my opinion that unions have !@#$ed a lot of this country up. I've heard more horror stories about what goes on on union gigs than non-union shops.

[Tcali]

and what is the pay of all the management to cost of labor to the guy that builds the car ?

 

Not the unions fault that the company loves to spend money .

red herring. yes of course the executive pay is ridiculous. i agree.. but the amount of money is miniscule in relation---and as i say a red herring. stick to the point.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Read the post I responded to ya schmuck! I've worked in some of the biggest hell holes in the country under some of the most inhumane conditions ever and I wouldn't want someone to charge me to make it better. I chose that career and knew what I was getting into and it's my opinion that unions have !@#$ed a lot of this country up. I've heard more horror stories about what goes on on union gigs than non-union shops.

 

 

I have heard horror stories about non-union gigs... Like the one time a friend of mine went to an electrical manufacturer to distribute union prop... They literally walked in on a group of Mexicans taking lighting fixtures out of the box (from overseas) and slapping phoney UL labels on them and then repackaging them. I sure like to have one of those beauts gracing the foyer of my new McMansion... Until the phucker melts and burns down the crib with my wife and two children in it.

 

[Tcali]

The UAW hasn't screwed anybody over. They've done their job in negotiating a fair wage and benefit package for their members. Nobody held a gun to the heads of the guys representing management in those negotiations. The UAW made significant concessions last year. They'll make more concessions if need be this time. The UAW in no part is responsible for the state of the US economy. Not by any stretch. Sure, unions and minority homeowners are a convenient set of scapegoats to trot out there, but they're not at the root of this mess. One of us is arguing to try and save three million jobs, an industry and by doing so trying to avoid a devastating hit to the economy at the worst possible time. The other one of us is arguing for a scorched earth policy to stick it to the unions. Who's arguing using common sense, and who's being petty?

yeah right a fair wage and benefits --that are bankrupting the company. USA autoworkers getting 73/hr in wages/benefits makes loads of sense when honda and toyota are paying 46. Real smart and forward thinking. Great when you win all these FAIR contracts for the employees when its HAS and will continue to cost these workers their jobs and probbly most of their pensions.

Come on Johnny---sheeesh---lets be somewhat in the rational universe here.

[pBills]

I've never worked union before so I only know what people have to put up with before becoming unionized. I see no problems. You're an idiot.

 

 

I'm the idiot? Yet you are the one spouting off how unions has run the course and are no longer useful.... and you have never been part of an organizing campaign. Since you see nothing, all is fine. Such a tool. Stay in that hole you live in and keep the blinders on.

[pBills]

yeah right a fair wage and benefits --that are bankrupting the company. USA autoworkers getting 73/hr in wages/benefits makes loads of sense when honda and toyota are paying 46. Real smart and forward thinking. Great when you win all these FAIR contracts for the employees when its HAS and will continue to cost these workers their jobs and probbly most of their pensions.

Come on Johnny---sheeesh---lets be somewhat in the rational universe here.

 

 

No are you talking about 73 per hour as double time? Because I don't any UAW members making that much unless it double time. The problem with any union contract is that costs provided within are skyrocketing... example: health care. Not the wages.

[KD in CA]

No are you talking about 73 per hour as double time? Because I don't any UAW members making that much unless it double time. The problem with any union contract is that costs provided within are skyrocketing... example: health care. Not the wages.

 

"double time"? Uh, that's why it's an absurd wage. And spare me the nonsense about anyone being forced to work overtime. The contracts are rigged specifically so the senior guys can show up and collect these outrageous wage levels. I notice you didn't reply to Gordio's real life example of union abuse.

 

And yes, the problem is also benefits. How come you STILL refuse to comment on these millions of guys contributing ZERO for their own benefits (btw, that's what makes them lavish)? Are you still going to duck my question about how much YOU personally pay for your own medical insurance? Are you still going to ignore the fact that the average US worker contributes thousands of dollars per year to the overall cost of their family health care while these guys pay nothing? And you want the first group to be forced to subsidize the second group?? Unreal.

 

It's really amazing to me that the same people who get so upset about excess executive comp are perfectly fine to continue to not only allow excess union comp, but to actually FUND IT. (And to save you the comeback, I think executive comp is out of control as well and have never stated otherwise).

[mead107]

Its not the UAW That puts out a sh------- product .

 

http://biz.yahoo.com/usnews/081120/20_6_my...p;.pf=insurance

[KD in CA]

The UAW hasn't screwed anybody over. They've done their job in negotiating a fair wage and benefit package for their members. Nobody held a gun to the heads of the guys representing management in those negotiations.

You mean except the federal government who won't allow the management to tell the union to f**k off and to go hire non union workers?

 

The UAW in no part is responsible for the state of the US economy.

Nope, but they are largely responsible for the state of US automakers.

 

Not by any stretch. Sure, unions and minority homeowners are a convenient set of scapegoats to trot out there, but they're not at the root of this mess.

Ah yes, when all else fails, start playing the race card.

 

One of us is arguing to try and save three million jobs, an industry and by doing so trying to avoid a devastating hit to the economy at the worst possible time. The other one of us is arguing for a scorched earth policy to stick it to the unions. Who's arguing using common sense, and who's being petty?

What the people using common sense are arguing for is a revamp of the entire industry -- including unions. What you are arguing for is for the complete validation of the broken union model and an exemption for including that in the overall package of things that must be fixed to save the US auto industry. Letting these companies enter bankruptcy and reorganize with a workable business model does not mean the US auto industry will cease to exist and does not mean that 3 million people will lose their jobs. Do you guy really not understand this or are you just shouting hysterics in an attempt to win an argument?

[pBills]

"double time"? Uh, that's why it's an absurd wage. And spare me the nonsense about anyone being forced to work overtime. The contracts are rigged specifically so the senior guys can show up and collect these outrageous wage levels. I notice you didn't reply to Gordio's real life example of union abuse.

 

And yes, the problem is also benefits. How come you STILL refuse to comment on these millions of guys contributing ZERO for their own benefits (btw, that's what makes them lavish)? Are you still going to duck my question about how much YOU personally pay for your own medical insurance? Are you still going to ignore the fact that the average US worker contributes thousands of dollars per year to the overall cost of their family health care while these guys pay nothing? And you want the first group to be forced to subsidize the second group?? Unreal.

 

It's really amazing to me that the same people who get so upset about excess executive comp are perfectly fine to continue to not only allow excess union comp, but to actually FUND IT. (And to save you the comeback, I think executive comp is out of control as well and have never stated otherwise).

 

 

Did I say forced to work overtime? If you a worker has a chance to work overtime and make money, who would turn that down? How many union contracts have you seen? Just asking. I did not see Gordio's "real life" example. I am sure that there are employees/union members that abuse the union protection they have. Not doubting that. Can't and shouldn't the whole as corrupt because of the few. I have always said that the unions sometimes protect people they shouldn't... and that things should be changed within. However, the union is not the main reason for this problem as you would believe.

 

I have answered EVERY ONE of your questions. I have commented countless times on benefits. If some people are receiving health care benefits that cover every dime. I am shocked, but at the same time don;t both sides have to agree on these contracts? Oh that's right this is where the union strong arms the CEO's. Blah, blah, blah. Now you want me to discuss how much I personally pay per month for my health insurance? Let's just put it this way. I PAY FOR IT. Most if not all union workers across the board, all unions receive health care at a discounted rate as compared to someone who is not unionized. So if that health care practice is the problem why isn't EVERY industry failing because of the union?

 

It amazes me how when a company fails the CEO's and the people who believe management can do no wrong (you) always place the blame on the workers.

 

Unions offer FAIR wages, good benefits and most of all job security. Without the unions workers would still be getting raped.

 

 

Oh, and since you mentioned the Federal Government... I am seriously hoping that EFCA gets passed.

[Kevbeau]

As someone alluded to before, my experiences with unions (and yes I have been in one) is that their biggest detriment is the blind protection of what we'll call "less than desirable" workers. The vast majority of workers put in an honest days work, but you can't underestimate the damage the bottom 5% or so can do. Also, it's been my experience that most of the stewards knew that that the person should be canned, but felt their hands were tied because "he pays his dues."

[pBills]

As someone alluded to before, my experiences with unions (and yes I have been in one) is that their biggest detriment is the blind protection of what we'll call "less than desirable" workers. The vast majority of workers put in an honest days work, but you can't underestimate the damage the bottom 5% or so can do. Also, it's been my experience that most of the stewards knew that that the person should be canned, but felt their hands were tied because "he pays his dues."

 

 

 

I completely agree. That goes along with the change that is needed within. If people are abusing their member privileges, they should be canned without union protection... or place them on a strike system. Mark their file, three strikes see ya.

[pBills]

ooops, is someone rewriting? hehehehehe

[JoeFerguson]

As someone alluded to before, my experiences with unions (and yes I have been in one) is that their biggest detriment is the blind protection of what we'll call "less than desirable" workers. The vast majority of workers put in an honest days work, but you can't underestimate the damage the bottom 5% or so can do. Also, it's been my experience that most of the stewards knew that that the person should be canned, but felt their hands were tied because "he pays his dues."

 

My uncle is a bus driver and unionized. Most of those guys are reliable, hard working people. There are, however, a small percentage of dimwits who do abhorrent things and are still able to keep their jobs because the union fights for them. For example: Some driver was caught on the in-bus surveillance camera sh*tting on the bus. I will repeat that......sh*tting on the bus. Actually squatting and taking a sh*t in the aisle. He was in the union, and the union went to bat for the guy. So what happens is, from that point on, the management will now stereotype every union member as a guy who is capable of sh*tting on the bus.

 

If there was not a union, that guy would be fired without question, and THAT's the way it should be.

[pBills]

My uncle is a bus driver and unionized. Most of those guys are reliable, hard working people. There are, however, a small percentage of dimwits who do abhorrent things and are still able to keep their jobs because the union fights for them. For example: Some driver was caught on the in-bus surveillance camera sh*tting on the bus. I will repeat that......sh*tting on the bus. Actually squatting and taking a sh*t in the aisle. He was in the union, and the union went to bat for the guy. So what happens is, from that point on, the management will now stereotype every union member as a guy who is capable of sh*tting on the bus.

 

If there was not a union, that guy would be fired without question, and THAT's the way it should be.

 

 

 

 

What union is he with?

[KD in CA]

Did I say forced to work overtime? If you a worker has a chance to work overtime and make money, who would turn that down?

No one is blaming the individual for maximizing his earnings.The blame is with the irresponsible institution that allows it in the first place.

 

However, the union is not the main reason for this problem as you would believe.

You keep saying that but none of your arguments support that conclusion. You can ignore ECN 101 all you want, but when your costs are dramatically higher than your competition, you simply are not going to be able to build a product of equal value at the same price point. I love how you pretend that this industry is a disaster because of the current economy, as though everything was fine with this industry until September. This is decades in the making.

 

I have answered EVERY ONE of your questions.

No, you still haven't told us how much you pay for health insurance. Although you admit it's not free, so that's probably as much as we're getting out of you.

 

If some people are receiving health care benefits that cover every dime. I am shocked,

WHAT??? You are "shocked"? So you blindly will accept any argument that has a "union" tag attached to it without having any idea of the benefits you are arguing about? Unreal. Let's turn your question back to you -- how many union contracts have YOU seen?

 

When I was in public accounting, I had several manufacturing clients, both union and non-union companies. I'd spend half my summer at the Smith Corona plant in Cortland back when it was a $500MM company and saw first hand what happens to a business that has a lack of management foresight, poor quality and an unsustainable labor cost. I saw the COO of the Company announce the plant closing to 3000 shocked people (we had to sign off on the statement and press release). It sucked, and a lot of people I had worked with lost their jobs. Perhaps if they had put in an intelligent business plan at some point, the worst could have been avoided. That's the argument here -- you guys can cry about people just wanting to 'union bash' but the point here is to have a business model that will allow the US auto industry to survive. And it can't do that with the current labor practices (among other problems).

 

Most if not all union workers across the board, all unions receive health care at a discounted rate as compared to someone who is not unionized. So if that health care practice is the problem why isn't EVERY industry failing because of the union?

No p, not "discounted"....."free". Do all unions provide for free heath insurance? And one reason we see less business failures is because most have done away with the antiquated union model.

 

It amazes me how when a company fails the CEO's and the people who believe management can do no wrong (you) always place the blame on the workers.

Ah yes, your favorite strawman. I've stated several times that incompetent management should be replaced, exec comp should reflect performance, there should be more accountability to shareholders, etc. Management should certainly be held responsible for promising things to workers that they had no ability to deliever on. Of course, management should also be free of the legal shackles that force them to deal with unreasonable unions.

 

But at least I've had jobs that allow me to understand both sides. I'd willing to bet a lot of money that you have never held any type of management job and have absolutely no idea what is involved -- especially in a huge organization like GM.

 

Unions offer FAIR wages, good benefits and most of all job security. Without the unions workers would still be getting raped.

How come I don't see the workers in non-union industries being 'raped'? Oh yeah, because that's another b.s. strawman, Upton.

 

And again, the point is that this particular industry's unions offer EXCESSIVE wages, benefits and post-retirement benefits and it is a MAJOR factor in the deterioration of the US auto industry.

[IDBillzFan]

My uncle is a bus driver and unionized. Most of those guys are reliable, hard working people. There are, however, a small percentage of dimwits who do abhorrent things and are still able to keep their jobs because the union fights for them. For example: Some driver was caught on the in-bus surveillance camera sh*tting on the bus. I will repeat that......sh*tting on the bus. Actually squatting and taking a sh*t in the aisle. He was in the union, and the union went to bat for the guy. So what happens is, from that point on, the management will now stereotype every union member as a guy who is capable of sh*tting on the bus.

 

If there was not a union, that guy would be fired without question, and THAT's the way it should be.

So when dispatch calls in to your uncle and asks if he's on schedule for the day, does he respond with "Does a union worker shiit on a bus?"

[Chef Jim]

I'm the idiot? Yet you are the one spouting off how unions has run the course and are no longer useful.... and you have never been part of an organizing campaign. Since you see nothing, all is fine. Such a tool. Stay in that hole you live in and keep the blinders on.

 

I'm a tool? I love the way you guys need someone to take care of you and make things better. Either the government or your union will make things all fine and dandy. Just because I've never worked for a union doesn't mean that I don't understand that I don't need one to make my life better. That's up to me. And I've heard more horror stories from union gigs than non-union.

[Chef Jim]

What union is he with?

 

The United Bus Shiiters 3651