AUTO BAILOUT?

[Dante]

Man, I'm sick of this bull sh-- about how the UAW is the root of all evil and the cause of Detroit's downfall. The UAW made massive concessions last year saving the Big Three billions of dollars. The facts are management was/is grossly negligent and incompetent, and the economy sucks and no one is buying automobiles. The UAW is a convenient scapegoat, but they aren't the problem.

But it is a major problem. Bottom line is that your paying unskilled labor way more than its worth. You don't need talent to work an assembly line. If you want to make more cash, learn a skill or trade. Just cause you work for GM shouldn't mean you automatically get $50 a hour. After decades of this lunacy you had to know reality would take hold and everything would come to a end. Time is now. Let them all pay for they're greed.

[RayFinkle]

Would you buy a car from a company that is bankrupt? During a recession.

If I bought a new car during the recession, the last thing I would buy is GM. Bankruptcy or no bankruptcy. I bought a brand new Ford Focus for the wife in 2002. As I was driving home, I discovered the rear passenger window would not go down. That was the final straw for me and American made cars.

[mead107]

I will NEVER buy a GM product . Let them go under . They can shove my Trail blazer up ##**###****###***

[pBills]

But it is a major problem. Bottom line is that your paying unskilled labor way more than its worth. You don't need talent to work an assembly line. If you want to make more cash, learn a skill or trade. Just cause you work for GM shouldn't mean you automatically get $50 a hour. After decades of this lunacy you had to know reality would take hold and everything would come to a end. Time is now. Let them all pay for they're greed.

 

 

They have already worked out deals to cut the starting salaries and to have the union take over the health care for retirees. I personally don't know anyone working or that worked a line that made $50.00 an hour. I know a lot people however that worked a lot of overtime.

 

 

And I just bought a suburban. Outstanding vehicle!!!

[VOR]

I agree with those who say let the oil companies do it.

[Gordio]

They have already worked out deals to cut the starting salaries and to have the union take over the health care for retirees. I personally don't know anyone working or that worked a line that made $50.00 an hour. I know a lot people however that worked a lot of overtime.

 

 

And I just bought a suburban. Outstanding vehicle!!!

 

 

My father-in-law worked at GM/American Axle until he reitred 4 years ago. His job was to ride this machine once every hour or so to clean the floors. Because he had the most senority at the plant he would basically get all the overtime he wanted. He would often brag to me that he would go in on sunday, work 12hrs, get paid double time(which was I believe $66 an hour) & most of the time play cards with his buddies. He was basically a glorified janitor & he made well over $100 grand per yeat. GM did/does have bad managment, but alot of their problems stem from having their hands tied by a Union that was too strong for too long. I do not begrudge the employees for taking advantage of this, but you reap what you sow. Now most of them do not have jobs. I could see this one coming a mile away & even got into an arguement with my father-in-law back in 1998 when I told him that GM is going to be in a world of hurt in the next 10yrs if they keep running things the way they have been.

[BUFFALOTONE]

I am getting my new truck in 2 weeks. After that they can bail them out all they want.

[mead107]

My father-in-law worked at GM/American Axle until he reitred 4 years ago. His job was to ride this machine once every hour or so to clean the floors. Because he had the most senority at the plant he would basically get all the overtime he wanted. He would often brag to me that he would go in on sunday, work 12hrs, get paid double time(which was I believe $66 an hour) & most of the time play cards with his buddies. He was basically a glorified janitor & he made well over $100 grand per yeat. GM did/does have bad managment, but alot of their problems stem from having their hands tied by a Union that was too strong for too long. I do not begrudge the employees for taking advantage of this, but you reap what you sow. Now most of them do not have jobs. I could see this one coming a mile away & even got into an arguement with my father-in-law back in 1998 when I told him that GM is going to be in a world of hurt in the next 10yrs if they keep running things the way they have been.

Better your father - in law make $100,000.00 than have a 10 year old working the line .

 

Go UNIONS .

[SDS]

In a landmark 2007 contract deal, the United Auto Workers, agreed to steep concessions on wages and benefits for new hires and the establishment of a trust for retiree health care.

 

Much of the opposition to the bailout has focused on labor costs, labor accounts for only 13 percent of the cost of a GM vehicle.

 

GM and the other Detroit automakers are already saving money based on the 2007 contract with the UAW. GM estimates it is already saving over $500 million per year because of concessions in the 2007 contract.

 

That will rise to $4 billion per year from 2010 once the healthcare trust shifts the liability for retiree healthcare costs from the company's balance sheet, said GM spokesman Tony Sapienza.

 

:worthy: :beer: :lol:

 

That's @#$@#$! hysterical. GM loses that much in a weekend. If only the Titanic passengers threw more deck chairs over the side they would have made it safely.

 

So, if we can just let GM burn through another $50B+ then in 18 months they'll save $4B/year and still be in the red?

 

I think it is interesting that GM makes money in every country in thew world (where the UAW is not), but not here at home.

[KD in CA]

Man, I'm sick of this bull sh-- about how the UAW is the root of all evil and the cause of Detroit's downfall. The UAW made massive concessions last year saving the Big Three billions of dollars. The facts are management was/is grossly negligent and incompetent, and the economy sucks and no one is buying automobiles. The UAW is a convenient scapegoat, but they aren't the problem.

I always find it interesting that US auto makers and US airlines always seem to have to same "incompetent management".

 

The UAW will probably have to make more concessions to save their jobs, but they've already made quite a few. I can't believe you of all people would buy into the GOP talking point blaming the unions. The GOP doesn't give a crap about the American taxpayer. They want Detroit bankrupt so the UAW gets destroyed. That's what this opposition is about. We're talking a 25 Billion dollar loan with interest.

It's not about "concessions". That is a meaningless word. It's about how much the enterprise is spending and if that level of spending makes sense relative to the value that they produce. And quite obviously, the answer in this case is NO. If it did, they would be running a profitable business and wouldn't be begging to waste more of our money. They need to do a lot of things to fix the automakers. And one of the biggest is to end the lavish union giveaways. But again, let's ignore that because they gave a "concession" of one less smoke break a month last time around.

[Dante]

Better your father - in law make $100,000.00 than have a 10 year old working the line .

 

Go UNIONS .

Brilliant. Don't B word we they go under then. Gonna love to see all these guys working for 7.25 and hour. I would pay to see that. Talk about dose of reality.

[tennesseeboy]

Man, I'm sick of this bull sh-- about how the UAW is the root of all evil and the cause of Detroit's downfall. The UAW made massive concessions last year saving the Big Three billions of dollars. The facts are management was/is grossly negligent and incompetent, and the economy sucks and no one is buying automobiles. The UAW is a convenient scapegoat, but they aren't the problem.

 

What to expect from U.S. auto bailout debate

 

 

The UAW will probably have to make more concessions to save their jobs, but they've already made quite a few. I can't believe you of all people would buy into the GOP talking point blaming the unions. The GOP doesn't give a crap about the American taxpayer. They want Detroit bankrupt so the UAW gets destroyed. That's what this opposition is about. We're talking a 25 Billion dollar loan with interest.

The UAW isn't the root of all evil. The management of GM, the UAW, and the state of Michigan are the root of all evil. They want to keep going the way they are going...fine...go bankrupt and get unemployed. They want taxpayer money?...clean up their respective acts.

[stuckincincy]

Didn't people fly United when it was in bankruptcy proceedings ? Agreed they are different businesses but I don't see why people will be scared of buying a vehicle from a company which is in Chapter 11 re-organization (and not Chapter 7 liquidation)

You are buying a service when you buy an airline ticket...not a long-term capital investment that moreover requires after-sale service to remain viable.

[Marv's Neighbor]

This Country's citizens were against the $750B Financial Bailout by a very wide margin.

 

In order to "presuade" enough Congressional votes to pass that, there is at least $150B of "pork" in the Financial Bailout package.

 

The smart and ethical thing to do would to be to revisit the "pork" that's already out there and reduce it enough to make an equivalent amount, in this case $25B, available to the Auto Manufacturers.

 

Before we just handed it over we should expect and demand a complete itemization and justification for the $25B. Oversight to ensure that the money is going where Management said it was needed, and a strict repayment schedule with significant penalties for non-performance.

 

We need this industry and the jobs that go along with it. If the Auto Companies go bankrupt only the employees, taxpayers and the consumers will lose. The Companies and the CEO's won't miss a beat. The employees will lose valuable jobs, the taxpayers will lose tax rev. from idle/abandond plants, and have to pay massive unemployment benefits AND assume the unfunded/underfunded pensions and the consumers will have reduced choices and value in what remains in the marketplace going forward.

[pBills]

I always find it interesting that US auto makers and US airlines always seem to have to same "incompetent management".

 

 

It's not about "concessions". That is a meaningless word. It's about how much the enterprise is spending and if that level of spending makes sense relative to the value that they produce. And quite obviously, the answer in this case is NO. If it did, they would be running a profitable business and wouldn't be begging to waste more of our money. They need to do a lot of things to fix the automakers. And one of the biggest is to end the lavish union giveaways. But again, let's ignore that because they gave a "concession" of one less smoke break a month last time around.

 

 

Well if "incompetent management" fits then use it. And theses cases, it fits. You really need to stop with the term lavish. I don't know who you know within the union. Most of the union workers I know are not rich or live lavishly. They have great job security and good benefit packages. Which in the case of the UAW are being altered or cut back along wages.

[RayFinkle]

The best part of the whole thing is watching the CEOs of the big 3 getting lectured by Washington lawmakers about mismanagement, fiscal responcibility and failing to look to the future. The irony is too much for me to handle...

[Steely Dan]

You are buying a service when you buy an airline ticket...not a long-term capital investment that moreover requires after-sale service to remain viable.

 

Exactly.

 

The big three were making profits before this crap happened. It's not the union it's incompetent management. The companies were making profits while working with the UAW. They also had capital to buy up a lot of companies. It's some of the UAW's doing but far more incompetent management.

[Johnny Coli]

Exactly.

 

The big three were making profits before this crap happened. It's not the union it's incompetent management. The companies were making profits while working with the UAW. They also had capital to buy up a lot of companies. It's some of the UAW's doing but far more incompetent management.

Exactly. The economy sucks. No one is buying anyone's cars. Detroit's sales are down, but I read Toyota and Honda are also down 25-30%. That's not the UAW's fault.

 

I'm astounded that people think losing 3 million more jobs can be absorbed when the US unemployment figures released today show we've already lost 1.2 million jobs this year. All because a bunch of free-market-till-death people want to crush the unions and teach Michigan a lesson? Forcing them into chapter 11 is not reasonable. Who is going to finance the DIP? It's going to have to be the Feds. These are the same people vehemently opposed to any form of socialism. What the hell is financing the auto industry's chapter 11, then? If the Big 3 file chapter 11 and no one buys cars because only a freaking idiot would purchase something for that much money from a bankrupt company, then what happens? All this angst over a $25B dollar loan. What's it going to cost us when the industry tanks?

[IDBillzFan]

All this angst over a $25B dollar loan.

This kind of goes back to the discussions about the tax increases that are coming. It's not the amount that is at issue. It's the action. As a small business owner, it's my responsible to adjust my business in accordance with the demands for my product. We don't wait for the shiit to hit the fan when the economy is tanking. We anticipate it, and step one is to cut costs, particularly on items that may be considered a perk. I understand my dinky little company doesn't compare to the auto industry, but the core principles of management still apply.

 

I have no problem helping these folks out, but not without someone proving to us that the management principles which were discarded during the economic downturn are being corrected. Based on their carelessness in spending $20K to fly a private jet to Washington, there is no indication that these guys have any clue how to stop their own bleeding. The idea of handing any amount of money to these irresponsible managers simply won't settle well with all the middle class taxpayers who just spent the past year crying about how the wealthy are too wealthy.

[Dante]

Exactly. The economy sucks. No one is buying anyone's cars. Detroit's sales are down, but I read Toyota and Honda are also down 25-30%. That's not the UAW's fault.

Of course it's not but if GM/Ford/Chrysler ran more efficient, leaner, then they could sustain during cyclical down turns in the economy. Simple as that. You can dance around it all you like but union manifesto is work less, get paid more. Great for workers but bad for competition. Temporary joy for laborers but it's not realistic when competing in the world economy.