Today's Mort Chat

[BuffaloBillsMagic1]

I don't care if the NFL gives a team to a Canadian city, but if the Bills leave WNY, I won't be a fan anymore, either.

 

I think putting too much hope in Jim Kelly is dangerous. He and his pals will have very steep competition for the team from people with way more experienced in such business dealings.

 

My point is that those hoping for Ralph to "go" soon should be very careful about what they might actually get.

How much under the Cap are we this year? Seems like other teams sign guys that are dropped like that db from Oakland yet we never seem to esplore these options. We have to way below the cap.

[scribo]

How much under the Cap are we this year? Seems like other teams sign guys that are dropped like that db from Oakland yet we never seem to esplore these options. We have to way below the cap.

What's that have to do with my post which you quoted?

 

Yes, we are under the cap by a good deal, but it is fair to say we've been quite competitive the last couple of years in free agency, paying big bucks for the positions most of us here felt needed upgrading the most.

[DaGimp]

People, people-what is the only constant? It's Wilson. Even in our Super Bowl years one or two big moves could have put us over the top but would have cost him. People like to give him credit for keeping the team, which is fine, but my only concern is having a winner.

[BillsVet]

Hey - I think he's right. The owner is a problem. Granted, I appreciate him, but he's a meddler. I mean, how do you fire Polian and run Butler out of town? Isn't that obvious?

 

Polian was fired because he didn't get along with Jeffrey Littman, Chief Financial Officer for Ralph's companies. Apparently, you can find GM's all over the place, yet CFO's are rare.

 

Front office wise, everything is done with business in mind. Don't get me wrong, the NFL is a business imitating a sport, but Ralph takes it to new levels. Making the former business/marketing guy the COO/quasi-GM, letting Polian go for the aforementioned reason, and spending 20-25M less in dollars are the reasons this team is in a huge quagmire. And unless the owner makes real moves and stops making moves based only on money, we'll be where we are every season.

[scribo]

People, people-what is the only constant? It's Wilson. Even in our Super Bowl years on or two big moves could have put us over the top but would have cost him. People like to give him credit for keeping the team, which is fine, but my only concern is having a winner.

I agree that our top concern should be winning, but the reality is that we need to also be concerned with keeping the team in Buffalo.

Would you be OK with moving the team to Toronto or, say, San Antonio, if it meant winning a Super Bowl within two years of the move?

[BuffaloBillsMagic1]

What's that have to do with my post which you quoted?

 

Yes, we are under the cap by a good deal, but it is fair to say we've been quite competitive the last couple of years in free agency, paying big bucks for the positions most of us here felt needed upgrading the most.

Maybe that is why GMs we had that were great are no longer here. Cheap??????

[Gordio]

Maybe that is why GMs we had that were great are no longer here. Cheap??????

 

 

I really do not think Butler was that great of a GM. He rode the team Polian built for his first few years as GM & then when it was time to put his footprint on the team, they could not win a playoff game. Also he could not of F8cked up the cap anymore. Giving guys like Sam Rodgers big contracts was insane.

[34-78-83]

I really do not think Butler was that great of a GM. He rode the team Polian built for his first few years as GM & then when it was time to put his footprint on the team, they could not win a playoff game. Also he could not of F8cked up the cap anymore. Giving guys like Sam Rodgers big contracts was insane.

 

True

Butler was vastly over-rated as a GM

He was a great talent e v a l guy though in a head of scouting sort of position.

[John from Riverside]

My question regarding the Kelly taking over thing.....

 

Will Kelly (and his partners whoever they be) have the FUNDS to be able to spend to the cap like we actually need to do?

 

Time and time again I have seen players paster over who could have helped us......remember Keven Mawe? that guy is still playing and productive. We COULD HAVE HAD HIM

 

There is a long list of players to go with that as well.......

[K-9]

Hey - I think he's right. The owner is a problem. Granted, I appreciate him, but he's a meddler. I mean, how do you fire Polian and run Butler out of town? Isn't that obvious?

 

Agree on Polian but he didn't run Butler out of town, exactly. Butler made a LOT of bad personnel decisions in his tenure as GM and left the team in cap hell to boot. Butler made it clear to Ralph he didn't want to come back.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[dave mcbride]

Agree on Polian but he didn't run Butler out of town, exactly. Butler made a LOT of bad personnel decisions in his tenure as GM and left the team in cap hell to boot. Butler made it clear to Ralph he didn't want to come back.

 

GO BILLS!!!

I've said this before and I'll say it again - the Bills cap situation was overstated so that Donohoe could clean house. Much of the cap problems in 01 and 02 were the consequence of releasing Butler players, whose bonus numbers then accelerated to the year at hand. It would have been tight, but salary caps are more excuses than anything - teams know how to manipulate them.

[Beerball]

Wow, I wonder why Mort didn't warn his good buddy before he took the job here.

[DaGimp]

Butler sucked bad as GM

[K-9]

I've said this before and I'll say it again - the Bills cap situation was overstated so that Donohoe could clean house. Much of the cap problems in 01 and 02 were the consequence of releasing Butler players, whose bonus numbers then accelerated to the year at hand. It would have been tight, but salary caps are more excuses than anything - teams know how to manipulate them.

 

The cap and teams' abilities to manipulate it today is a different animal than it was 10 years ago. Let me be the first to say that for 99% of his tenure in Buffalo, Butler was one of the best in the league. Especially as a talent evaluator. But his last few years as the Buffalo GM left a lot to be desired. From the RJ trade to the drafting of Flowers to the extension of veterans passed their prime, he helped create a cap mess that needed to be cleaned up. It didn't need to be overstated so Donohue would have an excuse to clean house; it was what it was at the time, a mess.

 

I agree that Donohue's house cleaning put a burden on the team for '01 and '02 when the bonuses of those released were accelerated. But what was his alternative? Keep the players? With the exception of a couple of DTs that will remain nameless, should he have kept others like Henry Jones who were clearly passed their best days or take the short term hit in the hopes of developing younger, better players at a lower cost? Players that the new coaching staff wanted.

 

Look, we all know how it worked out and what a travesty the Donohue years were. But his housecleaning was necessary at the time.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[QB Bills]

I agree that our top concern should be winning, but the reality is that we need to also be concerned with keeping the team in Buffalo.

Would you be OK with moving the team to Toronto or, say, San Antonio, if it meant winning a Super Bowl within two years of the move?

 

No. And I'm from Toronto.

[dave mcbride]

The cap and teams' abilities to manipulate it today is a different animal than it was 10 years ago. Let me be the first to say that for 99% of his tenure in Buffalo, Butler was one of the best in the league. Especially as a talent evaluator. But his last few years as the Buffalo GM left a lot to be desired. From the RJ trade to the drafting of Flowers to the extension of veterans passed their prime, he helped create a cap mess that needed to be cleaned up. It didn't need to be overstated so Donohue would have an excuse to clean house; it was what it was at the time, a mess.

 

I agree that Donohue's house cleaning put a burden on the team for '01 and '02 when the bonuses of those released were accelerated. But what was his alternative? Keep the players? With the exception of a couple of DTs that will remain nameless, should he have kept others like Henry Jones who were clearly passed their best days or take the short term hit in the hopes of developing younger, better players at a lower cost? Players that the new coaching staff wanted.

 

Look, we all know how it worked out and what a travesty the Donohue years were. But his housecleaning was necessary at the time.

 

GO BILLS!!!

I think that Jones, Holecek, etc. would have been serviceable players for the Bills, and certainly better than their replacements (whose names I don't even remember, sad to say). The guys who were cut didn't do well elsewhere, but that was more a function of being cut right before the season began and having to learn new systems and new personnel in a very brief window of time.

[Cynical]

I've said this before and I'll say it again - the Bills cap situation was overstated so that Donohoe could clean house. Much of the cap problems in 01 and 02 were the consequence of releasing Butler players, whose bonus numbers then accelerated to the year at hand. It would have been tight, but salary caps are more excuses than anything - teams know how to manipulate them.

 

That's interesting. Everything I read and poked around about clearly shows it was not. The salary cap purge started after the 99 season, while Butler was still the GM. Andre Reed, Thurman Thomas, and Bruce Smith were all cut after 99. Smith was let go because he refused to restructure his contract. By the end of 2000, it was real ugly.

Donohoe had to choose between extending Moulds or retaining DE Wiley. He had no cap room to do both. IIRC, when it was all said and done, the Bills had something like 30% of the salary cap for 2001 tied up in dead cap space. That's money being paid to players that were longer on the team.

Ouch.

Think of all the free agents the Bills signed after the 99, 00, and 01 seasons.

 

And if still think it was nothing but hype, you need to go back and research what happened in SD the two years Butler was alive.

He paid Tim Dwight, a return man, starting WR money.

He paid Stephen Alexander, a blocking TE, a salary so outrageous that the offer shocked the player, the players agent, and the rest of the NFL.

[Lori]

Agree on Polian but he didn't run Butler out of town, exactly. Butler made a LOT of bad personnel decisions in his tenure as GM and left the team in cap hell to boot. Butler made it clear to Ralph he didn't want to come back.

 

GO BILLS!!!

I think Mort agrees with you on that point; he's just phrasing it a little differently. And I'm not getting his veil of secrecy over Butler's departure; unless he's talking about specific incidents, we already knew that Butler wasn't fond of Ralph's meddling. That's not exactly breaking news.

 

 

Wow, I wonder why Mort didn't warn his good buddy before he took the job here.

You know, that's a damn good point.

Unless he didn't talk to JB until after he moved out West.

[Saint Doug]

What exactly did Ralph do now?

 

Duh? He's the one who hired Donoho.

[jarthur31]

Why is it so hard to imagine that Ralph is difficult to work with and is holding back the success of the franchise?

 

I've pointed out that we need to out spend the rest of the for scouting talent for some years now. Hell, getting a top notch coach wouldn't hurt either.

 

You gotta wonder if Ralph is as meddling as Al Davis is.