Today's Mort Chat

[jarthur31]

Good points..........However, I do see Jim Kelly trying his best to keep the Bills in Buffalo. Although if they did move, I would no longer be a Bills fan. Even if they kept the "Bills" in the name, such as Toronto Bills I wont cheer for them. Football belongs in the USA, hockey belongs in Canada. I refuse to go there for anything. If Bills go there they can stay.......But I'd be done with the Bills and the NFL as a whole!

 

Amen brother!

 

If the team left, they need to change their name and Buffalo needs to petition the league to keep the name.

[Cynical]

Amen brother!

 

If the team left, they need to change their name and Buffalo needs to petition the league to keep the name.

 

Sorry to piss in your Cheerios, but:

 

If the Bills did leave, you can pretty much kiss pro football goodbye from the WNY landscape.

Buffalo is a small market city with a declining population and economic base.

 

Until that situation gets turned around, no team would be willing to relocate to Buffalo.

[Buftex]

OK, I am not a stalwart supporter of Mr. Wilson, but he has passed on making a lot more money by allowing the team to leave WNY. That said, what about our team's current situation is the "fault" of our owner? Is he saying we could have better coaches and players right now if it weren't for Mr. Wilson? Is he saying Mr. Wilson is meddling with the team right now, throwing off the team and wasting all the early success?

 

How is it Ralph's fault we lost Monday night?

 

 

I can't speak for Mort, but I don't think it would be unreasonable to think that. Ralph isn't as crazy, as say, Al Davis, but his devotion to fiscal responsibility, IMO, and making poor personel decisions, time and again, are a large contributer to the state of this franchise. When you think about it, the Bills history has been short periods of success, strung together by longer periods of awfulness and mediocrity. Don't you find it a little curious that nearly every successful coach and front office person has left Buffalo under bad circumstances? Lou Saban, Chuck Knox, Bill Polian, Jerry Butler...Marv Is the lone exception, really. And, if I recall, he made some thinly veiled criticisms of the set up in Buffalo when he left the GM position. When you think about it, the 1990's Bills were built on dumb luck...nobody was calling to hire Bill Polian as a GM, but he came cheap...and absolutely nobody wanted Marv Levy as their head coach, but, again, he came at a cheap price. It all worked, but, eventually, egos got in the way, and somebody had to leave.

[Tsaikotic]

I've said this before people...its no coincidence that Ralphie boy and the Fords are best friends...they both run there teams the same way...only thing is is that Ralph seems to have had a bit more success in his career than the Fords...

[Haven Moses]

Ralph (Detroit): Chris, get your facts straight on John Butler. The donut costs alone were staggering. And Tom Donahoe? Bledsoe, Losman, McGahee. The defense rests.

 

Chris Mortensen: (11:51 AM ET ) Look, ex-GM Tom Donohoe did a great job. Why noone has offered him a job in three years is beyond me.. I still say, be patient.

[Lori]

Ralph (Detroit): Chris, get your facts straight on John Butler. The donut costs alone were staggering. And Tom Donahoe? Bledsoe, Losman, McGahee. The defense rests.

 

Chris Mortensen: (11:51 AM ET ) Look, ex-GM Tom Donohoe did a great job. Why noone has offered him a job in three years is beyond me.. I still say, be patient.

 

 

Quality work there, No. 25.

[BillsVet]

I can't speak for Mort, but I don't think it would be unreasonable to think that. Ralph isn't as crazy, as say, Al Davis, but his devotion to fiscal responsibility, IMO, and making poor personel decisions, time and again, are a large contributer to the state of this franchise. When you think about it, the Bills history has been short periods of success, strung together by longer periods of awfulness and mediocrity. Don't you find it a little curious that nearly every successful coach and front office person has left Buffalo under bad circumstances? Lou Saban, Chuck Knox, Bill Polian, Jerry Butler...Marv Is the lone exception, really. And, if I recall, he made some thinly veiled criticisms of the set up in Buffalo when he left the GM position. When you think about it, the 1990's Bills were built on dumb luck...nobody was calling to hire Bill Polian as a GM, but he came cheap...and absolutely nobody wanted Marv Levy as their head coach, but, again, he came at a cheap price. It all worked, but, eventually, egos got in the way, and somebody had to leave.

 

Great point bolded there. That's sums it up.

 

As for Trader Bill, Polian had negotiated contracts with Kelly and B. Smith, which prompted his promotion to GM. He wasn't a big name, and thank goodness the stars aligned when he was hired. Levy was an also-ran HC who many people forget was pretty fiery from time to time. There are enough NFL Films clips to demonstrate this.

 

Polian and Levy worked well together, and it was a situation which hasn't been duplicated since in Buffalo. Perhaps it happened because the NFL was simpler before the cap. Then again, Polian seems to work well with Dungy so maybe it's not out of the question either.

 

All in all, I agree with this. Buffalo's only saving grace is that they're not completely awful like Detroit is. Although now, the Bidwell's look good because their team will make the playoffs, leaving only the Bills and Lions as not having made the playoffs since the 1990s.

[dave mcbride]

I can't speak for Mort, but I don't think it would be unreasonable to think that. Ralph isn't as crazy, as say, Al Davis, but his devotion to fiscal responsibility, IMO, and making poor personel decisions, time and again, are a large contributer to the state of this franchise. When you think about it, the Bills history has been short periods of success, strung together by longer periods of awfulness and mediocrity. Don't you find it a little curious that nearly every successful coach and front office person has left Buffalo under bad circumstances? Lou Saban, Chuck Knox, Bill Polian, Jerry Butler...Marv Is the lone exception, really. And, if I recall, he made some thinly veiled criticisms of the set up in Buffalo when he left the GM position. When you think about it, the 1990's Bills were built on dumb luck...nobody was calling to hire Bill Polian as a GM, but he came cheap...and absolutely nobody wanted Marv Levy as their head coach, but, again, he came at a cheap price. It all worked, but, eventually, egos got in the way, and somebody had to leave.

If memory serves, Wilson asked Marv to fire Henning (symptomatic of his henny-penny and turkey-lurkey reactions to a bad season, or even a few bad plays), and Marv refused. That wasn't the only reason Marv retired, but it allegedly played a part. Of course, Henning has done very well since leaving the Bills.

[Buftex]

If memory serves, Wilson asked Marv to fire Henning (symptomatic of his henny-penny and turkey-lurkey reactions to a bad season, or even a few bad plays), and Marv refused. That wasn't the only reason Marv retired, but it allegedly played a part. Of course, Henning has done very well since leaving the Bills.

 

 

Funny thing is, Henning has done well, as an OC, pretty much everywhere, but Buffalo. You would think Ralph would wonder why...

 

Don't want to trash the old guy too much, but he really is the root of the teams problems. I know, folks here get real sensitve if you say Ralph is cheap, but let me just say, he may not be cheap, but he spends his money in the wrong places.

I honestly think the best decision Ralph made in the last 30 years or so, was giving control of the team to Tom Donohoe. Sure, the results of TD's tenure were not very good, but the decision to hire someone who was in touch with the current NFL, and step back to count his money, was a great one. TD was the wrong guy, as it turned out, but there was some solid decision making going on there. Lets' not forget, he was highly regarded by just about anyone in the NFL, this side of Bill Cowher.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

RW pays the going rate for players, but he does skimp on coaches.

[SKOOBY]

RW pays the going rate for players, but he does skimp on coaches.

 

Skimps?? He hired a Corpse for god's sake.

[Sisyphean Bills]

True

Butler was vastly over-rated as a GM

He was a great talent e v a l guy though in a head of scouting sort of position.

And yet he was vastly better than anything since.

 

There are actually two constants with the Buffalo Bills. Ralph Wilson and Jeffrey Littman, CFO.

 

One of the big black eyes that Donahoe takes almost universally is his coaching hires and how bad they were. Well, what if the long time CFO was rejecting all proposals that came across his desk that would've required the "strapped" Bills to pony up a competitive contract to land a better candidate? What if it wasn't Donahoe's decision to watch on the sidelines while other teams snapped up the top coaching talent?

 

With free agency, it just isn't possible for teams to stock talent to the rafters like the Bills did in the late 80's and early 90's. Yes, your team needs talent; however, coaching is part of the competitive advantage formula. Getting the cheapest coach available, pre-greasing the skids so he can be dumped, hasn't been working.

 

When they say Dick Jauron is a very good coach for the Bills, I think they understand that Jauron is not highly paid. He focuses on the fundamentals and his philosophy can keep a team in the middle of the pack and "with a mathematical chance" into December. Maybe NFL insiders know that coaches of Bill Cowher's caliber, for example, are not going to come to Buffalo.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Rumors and such: Polian had a disagreement with Littman and was fired. Butler and Smith blew Ralph's inquiries into their contract off, pissed him off, and bolted to the Bolts. Mike Mularkey just up and quit on Ralph amid rumors of incompetence. Tom Donahoe parted ways very, very badly. Gregg Williams refused to sign his extension and coasted out the revolving door on a lame duck year. Wade Phillips refused to toe the line and fire some of his staff and got fired. Rumors were that Marv Levy retired (the first time) over some staffing squabbles. He then more recently left a major rebuild project after only 2 years. Chuck Knox skipped town to take a gig with the Seahawks. Lou Saban quit on Ralph twice.

 

Now there are some rumors that the Jauron contract extension (from Sully) isn't real, isn't signed, or may not take effect without certain performance outcomes...

 

The Bills haven't exactly been run like the Pittsburgh Steelers.

[Rico]

He comes right out and says it. Ralph gives the Bills no chance to win, and we need to be patient and wait for him to die so someone else can run the team. He comes right out and says that Butler didnt want to work here, prob cause Ralph didnt want to do what it takes to win. That is the reason he continually defends Donahue. He claims Ralph never game Donahue a chance to win... I actually believe him. Ralph must go.

Agree 100% with Mort here.

[dave mcbride]

Rumors and such: Polian had a disagreement with Littman and was fired. Butler and Smith blew Ralph's inquiries into their contract off, pissed him off, and bolted to the Bolts. Mike Mularkey just up and quit on Ralph amid rumors of incompetence. Tom Donahoe parted ways very, very badly. Gregg Williams refused to sign his extension and coasted out the revolving door on a lame duck year. Wade Phillips refused to toe the line and fire some of his staff and got fired. Rumors were that Marv Levy retired (the first time) over some staffing squabbles. He then more recently left a major rebuild project after only 2 years. Chuck Knox skipped town to take a gig with the Seahawks. Lou Saban quit on Ralph twice.

 

Now there are some rumors that the Jauron contract extension (from Sully) isn't real, isn't signed, or may not take effect without certain performance outcomes...

 

The Bills haven't exactly been run like the Pittsburgh Steelers.

Excellent post.

[BillsVet]

There are actually two constants with the Buffalo Bills. Ralph Wilson and Jeffrey Littman, CFO.

 

One of the big black eyes that Donahoe takes almost universally is his coaching hires and how bad they were. Well, what if the long time CFO was rejecting all proposals that came across his desk that would've required the "strapped" Bills to pony up a competitive contract to land a better candidate? What if it wasn't Donahoe's decision to watch on the sidelines while other teams snapped up the top coaching talent?

 

With free agency, it just isn't possible for teams to stock talent to the rafters like the Bills did in the late 80's and early 90's. Yes, your team needs talent; however, coaching is part of the competitive advantage formula. Getting the cheapest coach available, pre-greasing the skids so he can be dumped, hasn't been working.

 

When they say Dick Jauron is a very good coach for the Bills, I think they understand that Jauron is not highly paid. He focuses on the fundamentals and his philosophy can keep a team in the middle of the pack and "with a mathematical chance" into December. Maybe NFL insiders know that coaches of Bill Cowher's caliber, for example, are not going to come to Buffalo.

 

Very true. I've often wondered why if Ralph could hire a marquee name like TD for President/GM, then why couldn't they let TD find a bonafide HC? I agree with the idea that there was a line drawn for how much they would pay the new HC after Wade left in 2000. TD was a jerk, but I think he was bright enough to know the NFL is a coaches league. And he picked coordinators both times.

 

Littman's position in all of this is very murky. We never hear much about him, but it's evident he and Ralph do a lot of meddling in football operations. The result is 8 and most likely 9 straight non-playoff seasons. RW and most likely JL find new ways to push people away, and it's not going to change until the inevitable occurs.

 

I don't expect the Bills to ever resemble the late 80s/early 90s teams that had excellent depth. The awful front office decisions that have been made since 2000 are proof enough that Ralph/the front office/Littman are all incompetent when making football personnel decisions.

[dave mcbride]

Very true. I've often wondered why if Ralph could hire a marquee name like TD for President/GM, then why couldn't they let TD find a bonafide HC? I agree with the idea that there was a line drawn for how much they would pay the new HC after Wade left in 2000. TD was a jerk, but I think he was bright enough to know the NFL is a coaches league. And he picked coordinators both times.

 

Littman's position in all of this is very murky. We never hear much about him, but it's evident he and Ralph do a lot of meddling in football operations. The result is 8 and most likely 9 straight non-playoff seasons. RW and most likely JL find new ways to push people away, and it's not going to change until the inevitable occurs.

 

I don't expect the Bills to ever resemble the late 80s/early 90s teams that had excellent depth. The awful front office decisions that have been made since 2000 are proof enough that Ralph/the front office/Littman are all incompetent when making football personnel decisions.

Totally disagree - there was no way he wanted to hire a "name" coach after Pittsburgh who could command a higher salary. He wanted a hot coordinator all along. Power concerns factored very strongly into his choices, and they were probably more important than money. He wanted an equivalent of Cowher circa 1991, only not like Cowher.

[GG]

Hey let's all pile on. The other major gaffe is that Wilson didn't keep Smith after Butler left. Popular line is that Smith followed Butler. Yet, Smith said at the time that he would consider the GM job if he was offered it. History has shown that Smith is a better GM than Butler.

 

Bottom line is that there's no reason for Mort to carry Donahoe's water, as no matter how bad Ralph is, Donahoe proved to be very mediocre in his assignment as well.

[Sisyphean Bills]

We don't know what the reasons were behind Donahoe's hirings. He sent his own mixed messages even. Was Gregg Williams the best candidate he'd ever interviewed or was it, like he said later, that the fans don't know all the constraints and parameters? Donahoe was a control freak, that much we do know. Though, how much a fear of "another Cowher" is anyone's guess.

 

Smith may have entertained the idea of splitting with Butler, but he and Butler were good friends, had worked together a very long time, and scratched each others backs. When Butler jumped he made damn sure that Smith had a lilly pad right next to his.

 

Yeah, I don't understand why Mort persists with the notion that "Donahoe wasn't the problem". At the very least, it takes two things rubbing against one another to create friction. Mort should be smart enough to realize that. Donahoe did NOT build a solid football team in Buffalo. He did some good things and some bad things. He was what he was. And, yes, bottom line, there would be no Buffalo Bills without Mr. Wilson. As Bills fans, we owe him our respect for that. And, I do believe he wants to win just as badly as anyone else.

[2003Contenders]

We don't know what the reasons were behind Donahoe's hirings. He sent his own mixed messages even. Was Gregg Williams the best candidate he'd ever interviewed or was it, like he said later, that the fans don't know all the constraints and parameters? Donahoe was a control freak, that much we do know. Though, how much a fear of "another Cowher" is anyone's guess.

 

Smith may have entertained the idea of splitting with Butler, but he and Butler were good friends, had worked together a very long time, and scratched each others backs. When Butler jumped he made damn sure that Smith had a lilly pad right next to his.

 

Yeah, I don't understand why Mort persists with the notion that "Donahoe wasn't the problem". At the very least, it takes two things rubbing against one another to create friction. Mort should be smart enough to realize that. Donahoe did NOT build a solid football team in Buffalo. He did some good things and some bad things. He was what he was. And, yes, bottom line, there would be no Buffalo Bills without Mr. Wilson. As Bills fans, we owe him our respect for that. And, I do believe he wants to win just as badly as anyone else.

 

 

You may be onto something there. I can't bring myself to defend TD, but we certainly do not know how many of the decisions that we blame him for may have been imposed on him by Ralph, possibly indirectly. As for the HC hires, take a look at the pool of candidates that TD did interview: John Fox, Sean Payton, Marvin Lewis, Lovie Smith, and Charlie Weiss. I have to surmise that TD's having hired the weakest candidate each time may have at least been partly due to restrictions placed upon him. Note also without comment that in the 2003 Patriots Super Bowl program on the NFL Network, Weiss said that word had leaked to him that the Bills were prepared to hire him as the head coach if they lost in the AFC Championship game and the team didn't have to wait an extra two weeks to hire him. Now, I have no idea what kind of NFL head coach Weiss would have been, but to base a decision of that magnitude on having to wait 2 weeks is unconscionable. After the 2000 season, TD made it a point to wait until after the Super Bowl to interview Lewis, Fox and Payton. Wonder why he couldn't wait in 2004.