Orton's Arm Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 The problem goes all the way back to 1996, when the Bills began a 13-year streak of failing to draft an offensive linemen in either the first or second rounds with one unfortunate exception. Go here for the full article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murra Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 Go here for the full article. ...It all starts when the Bills failed to draft an Offensive Linemen... You know what I'm sick of this bullsh*t. We have a line. They're just playing like sh*t. They showed promise last year, and they looked great without Peters in the first game. Now they're playing horribly, but not because of lack of talent folks. The execution is not there. They have the ability to be good...they're just not winning the push right now, but it seems like a fixable problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VOR Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 Yeah, the premise of the article is stupid. What guarantee is there that if the Bills drafted OL, they'd be any better than the way they did it, which is develop some players (Peters and Butler), and sign some guys in FA? Am I the only one who thinks the quality of Felser's work when it comes to the Bills has gone down precipitously since he left the BN? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 Yeah, the premise of the article is stupid. What guarantee is there that if the Bills drafted OL, they'd be any better than the way they did it, which is develop some players (Peters and Butler), and sign some guys in FA? Am I the only one who thinks the quality of Felser's work when it comes to the Bills has gone down precipitously since he left the BN? Except, he's right. The Bills follow a strange paradigm: Draft a DB, train him well, let him walk. Rinse, lather, repeat. Tell me the Bills wouldn't have been better off if they'd kept both of the below and worked on the OL/DL instead: Nate Clements Antoine Winfield I think they would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 Yeah, the premise of the article is stupid. What guarantee is there that if the Bills drafted OL, they'd be any better than the way they did it, which is develop some players (Peters and Butler), and sign some guys in FA? Am I the only one who thinks the quality of Felser's work when it comes to the Bills has gone down precipitously since he left the BN? Yeah...what an idiot. Drafting lineman with day one picks...dumbest idea I've ever heard of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VOR Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 Except, he's right. The Bills follow a strange paradigm: Draft a DB, train him well, let him walk. Rinse, lather, repeat. Tell me the Bills wouldn't have been better off if they'd kept both of the below and worked on the OL/DL instead: Nate Clements Antoine Winfield I think they would be. The Bills drafted and re-signed McGee. True he wasn't a 1st rounder, but... As for Winfield and Clements, only after Clements did the Bills draft a DB in the first round of the following draft as a replacement, of sorts. Therefore the only OL/DL they passed-up was Brandon Albert. So drafting Albert (and playing him where?) would have ensured success on the OL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 The Bills drafted and re-signed McGee. True he wasn't a 1st rounder, but... As for Winfield and Clements, only after Clements did the Bills draft a DB in the first round of the following draft as a replacement, of sorts. Therefore the only OL/DL they passed-up was Brandon Albert. So drafting Albert (and playing him where?) would have ensured success on the OL? Let's not forget THE DT we passed up in order to get a Safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VOR Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 Let's not forget THE DT we passed up in order to get a Safety. We already went over this. The Bills drafted McCargo...in the first round. In hindsight it didn't work out. But in hindsight I'm sure the Ravens wouldn't have traded what they did for McGahee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 We already went over this. The Bills drafted McCargo...in the first round. In hindsight it didn't work out. But in hindsight I'm sure the Ravens wouldn't have traded what they did for McGahee. How much better would the D be with Ngata in there? MUCH. So, the team loses games because "in hindsight, it didn't work out." If you have the chance to draft a top-notch line talent in the first, you do it. I don't give a damn if there's a really good DB out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VOR Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 How much better would the D be with Ngata in there? MUCH. So, the team loses games because "in hindsight, it didn't work out." If you have the chance to draft a top-notch line talent in the first, you do it. I don't give a damn if there's a really good DB out there. Again we already went over this. While it would have been great to have Ngata, there were red flags about him that caused him to drop to 12th overall, which isn't where blue chippers/sure things (as much as any player is a sure thing) get picked. The point with "hindsight" and McGahee is that, as they say, it's 20/20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fewell733 Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 the "ifs and buts" of picking one guy over the other when both guys have turned out to be very good players is pretty pointless re the endless Whitner v. Ngata debate. Should we have drafted more lineman on day 1 over the past 10 years? absolutely. But when a GM comes to a team with a trash line you need to get blockers in there immediately. We now have at least a serviceable line - 2 years ago we genuinely didn't. Now we have the flexibility to draft lineman without needing them to necessarily start immediately - though at some positions they probably could (center in particular). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 I think Walker played over his head last season- he is a guy you really want to like, he busts his butt and never does anything stupid. Problem is that he is very big and not very explosive. The taller you are, the tougher it is to explode out of your stance and get push. Center is absolutely horrible and is not fixable with what we have on our roster. Peters is still an all pro, but we won't see that from him this season- his holdout ruined his season and seriously damaged the whole line. Butler is promising but hurt. Add to that that we have nobody but Evans who is a threat to stretch the field, so defenses can creep up on us. Of there is a studd OL or DL there for us in any round we have to grab it then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarthur31 Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 Yeah...what an idiot. Drafting lineman with day one picks...dumbest idea I've ever heard of. It's not not only that but this team doesn't have the scouts to point out the average to good linemen later in the draft where most playoff teams tend to find starters and some of them even make the PB and HOF! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 ...It all starts when the Bills failed to draft an Offensive Linemen... You know what I'm sick of this bullsh*t. We have a line. They're just playing like sh*t. They showed promise last year, and they looked great without Peters in the first game. Now they're playing horribly, but not because of lack of talent folks. The execution is not there. They have the ability to be good...they're just not winning the push right now, but it seems like a fixable problem. I agree....so I guess that New Englands line sucks too because they have Stephen Neal lined up at guard who was a UDFA? The bottom line is that when you are the biggest and heaviest line in the league you should be able to push some people off the ball simply because of this reason regardless of talent level. The Bills can't even do this, and this is what is most concerning. They looked better last year, especially in pass protection, and it is almost mind boggling how a line that seemed to get better and better as the year progressed last year can look worse and worse as the year progresses this year. IMHO, as I have stated previously, I believe the teams highschool level play at C and RG are killing them right now. Opposing defenders are in the backfield waiting for Lynch/Jackson on literally HALF of all running plays, usually because the C or RG gets embarrassed at the point of attack. This isn't a joke either---it amazes me how Lynch doesn't lose yardage more often---he literally has to dodge a defender in the backfield once every 2 carries(go back and re-watch the games if you don't believe me). Until this problem is resolved to at least keep the opposing defenders out of the backfield at those positions, we can never move forward and improve. No matter how good Walker, Dockery and Peters play(and most of the time it hasn't been all that great this year---although far better than Fowler/Preston and Chambers/Butler), nothing they can do is going to help out until the middle of our line can stop being a sieve. On running plays, those defenders are able to get to Lynch no matter what direction he is running because they are right in the middle of the line. On passing plays, this push up the middle prevents Edwards from being able to step up in the pocket, and appears to have gotten so bad that Edwards is getting jittery about stepping up in the pocket even when he can. Perhaps Butler being back will help the RG position as he is definitely an upgrade over Whittle and Chambers, although he is far from a good starter in the league. Preston at C is definitely the weak link now with Butler back, and its not like Fowler is any better---in fact he appears to have gotten benched for Preston which is in itself a sad state of affairs. Anyways, until we can prevent opponents from being in our backfield on half of our offensive plays, it will be very difficult for us to succeed, regardless of where these players are drafted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 Again we already went over this. While it would have been great to have Ngata, there were red flags about him that caused him to drop to 12th overall, which isn't where blue chippers/sure things (as much as any player is a sure thing) get picked. The point with "hindsight" and McGahee is that, as they say, it's 20/20. You may have gone over it, but that still doesn't mean your argument makes sense. There are red flags about absolutely everybody, in the sense that nobody is a guarantee. Marv, in press conferences, said that he loved Ngata and that Ngata would fit the Bills defense. Unlike most GMs, Marv didn't lie about evaluations. The reason Ngata "dropped" was that we didn't pick him. Which was a mistake. Donte is great, but as he said above, the d-line and o-line are bigger needs. About o-line, the topic of the thread, Felser is right. Picking line guys high is a generally successful way to work, as long as you have confidence in your coaches. It's cheaper than picking up FAs and probably has as high or a higher success rate, as you're not getting castoffs and wondering why they were let go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 ...It all starts when the Bills failed to draft an Offensive Linemen... You know what I'm sick of this bullsh*t. We have a line. They're just playing like sh*t. They showed promise last year, and they looked great without Peters in the first game. Now they're playing horribly, but not because of lack of talent folks. The execution is not there. They have the ability to be good...they're just not winning the push right now, but it seems like a fixable problem. 900 posts in 2.5 months and you still haven't said a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VOR Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 You may have gone over it, but that still doesn't mean your argument makes sense. There are red flags about absolutely everybody, in the sense that nobody is a guarantee. Marv, in press conferences, said that he loved Ngata and that Ngata would fit the Bills defense. Unlike most GMs, Marv didn't lie about evaluations. The reason Ngata "dropped" was that we didn't pick him. Which was a mistake. Donte is great, but as he said above, the d-line and o-line are bigger needs. Ten other teams didn't pick him as well, which means that 1/3 of the NFL passed on him. He's easily as good, if not better, than any of the guys picked before him (Mario Williams is debatable). And as you said, there's no sure thing, so playing hindsight with this is pointless, right? I'm sure there are loads of players you wanted who were busts, and the fact that there are ANY 1st round busts indicates that drafting isn't an exact science. Which is the point. About o-line, the topic of the thread, Felser is right. Picking line guys high is a generally successful way to work, as long as you have confidence in your coaches. It's cheaper than picking up FAs and probably has as high or a higher success rate, as you're not getting castoffs and wondering why they were let go. Again, this goes back to the "inexact science" thing. And it's a little easier to project how a player will do on your team after you've seen them against real NFL compeition, than seeing what they've done against mostly non-NFL competition (in college). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 Doesn't matter how you get them, you just have to get them. Not all great O Lines were born exclusively through the draft. Now, would I like to see the Bills do a better job of drafting offensive linemen? Absolutely. But, the bottom line is they need O Line talent, and then they need to coach them well...AND THEN they need to play well. Without the last two elements, you can draft them in the 1st round, every year, and it won't matter much. For what it is worth, I don't think the talent on this line is anywhere near as bad as their performance would suggest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaineMoxie Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 Hey, look, here's why I think a lot of it is coaching. The Cardinals O-line has allowed 16 sacks this season (compared with the Bills' 25) and they have Mike Gandy. A good coach can make just about anyone look halfway decent. The Bills, right now, are seriously missing Jim McNally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenigmusx Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 How much better would the D be with Ngata in there? MUCH. So, the team loses games because "in hindsight, it didn't work out." If you have the chance to draft a top-notch line talent in the first, you do it. I don't give a damn if there's a really good DB out there. Look, Donahoe let Pat Williams get away. Pat Williams is the best D tackle in the game. I watched him blow up 8 running plays single handed today. That is where the problems began my friends.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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