/dev/null Posted November 15, 2008 Share Posted November 15, 2008 I say let them fail. Global Warming®, Carbon Credits, etc are a crock of Stojan IMO. When a poorly run company fails another better run company fills the void If the Big 3 Auto Makers fail that's less pollution for the environment Somebody will step up to take their place with new technology that is more environmentally friendly Whoa, I just used a liberal tree hugger philosophy AND a right wing capitalist pig philosophy to solve a single problem /dev/null in 2012. I'll put the Republicrats and Democrabublicans out of a job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante Posted November 15, 2008 Share Posted November 15, 2008 I say let them fail. Global Warming®, Carbon Credits, etc are a crock of Stojan IMO. When a poorly run company fails another better run company fills the void If the Big 3 Auto Makers fail that's less pollution for the environment Somebody will step up to take their place with new technology that is more environmentally friendly Whoa, I just used a liberal tree hugger philosophy AND a right wing capitalist pig philosophy to solve a single problem /dev/null in 2012. I'll put the Republicrats and Democrabublicans out of a job Again I agree totally. But why doesn't this apply to the banking industry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted November 15, 2008 Share Posted November 15, 2008 Again I agree totally. But why doesn't this apply to the banking industry? There's no fuzzy warm feel good "green technology" aspect to the banking industry That said, I agree. Let the banks fail and somebody will still find a better way to do business Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted November 15, 2008 Share Posted November 15, 2008 I agree with that but its kinda hard to say no after you bailed out a bunch of non producing leaches in the banking industry. At least the auto industry keep lots of satellite companies working it's true that what theyve done for some banks has made it harder to argue for not saving other companies too. but we cant throw good money after bad and need to stop the insanity. america was supposedly the world's free market model and now it's turning into a model of centralized planning. the latter is nothing more than a prescription for no growth and massive poverty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted November 15, 2008 Share Posted November 15, 2008 Do you want to toss all their retirees and their agreed-upon benefits, most all of who labored in good faith, into the ditch? No, but let's be objective here. Those people were promised something by a private organization that is now reneging on their promises. That should not become my obligation to make good on someone else's unrealistic and irresponsible promises. Where does this nonsense end? When are people going to be held responsible for their actions? What is going to change? Is Congress going to pass a law forcing entities to fully fund post retirement benefits? Or are they going to keep closing their eyes because they are being paid off (AKA campaign contributions) by both sides: management that doesn't want to report lower earnings (and result in lower comp) and labor who knows they can't keep getting these lavish promises if companies are forced to admit they are promising things they can't afford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcali Posted November 15, 2008 Author Share Posted November 15, 2008 No, but let's be objective here. Those people were promised something by a private organization that is now reneging on their promises. That should not become my obligation to make good on someone else's unrealistic and irresponsible promises. Where does this nonsense end? When are people going to be held responsible for their actions? What is going to change? Is Congress going to pass a law forcing entities to fully fund post retirement benefits? Or are they going to keep closing their eyes because they are being paid off (AKA campaign contributions) by both sides: management that doesn't want to report lower earnings (and result in lower comp) and labor who knows they can't keep getting these lavish promises if companies are forced to admit they are promising things they can't afford. well said.....and the workers are gonna get 20% of what they are getting now---instead of the 50% which they would have gotten if the original negotiations were in the realm of reality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted November 15, 2008 Share Posted November 15, 2008 Is Congress going to pass a law forcing entities to fully fund post retirement benefits? Why do that when the Federal Government will just assume responsibility for the pension http://www.pbgc.gov/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcali Posted November 15, 2008 Author Share Posted November 15, 2008 Why do that when the Federal Government will just assume responsibility for the pension http://www.pbgc.gov/ its NOT a 100% guarantee ...its dimes on the dollar........ the pbgc guaranteed the airlines as well.....pilots with a 90,000 pension now receive approximately 22,000..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Poojer Posted November 15, 2008 Share Posted November 15, 2008 does this mean that after the banks and auto industry.....the consumer electronics industry can count on a bailout????? friggin sweet man.....i am gonna stop working so hard to help turn cc around....i am gonna let the govt do it.....awesome...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 Why do that when the Federal Government will just assume responsibility for the pension http://www.pbgc.gov/ That's the point. The PBGC is supposed to be insurance in the event of a business failure. It's not designed to simply cough up billions because pension obligations were simply not funded. And it can't possibly absorb this and the avalanche that will follow when the baby boomers retire en mass. And what will happen then? You and I will be paying higher payroll taxes to fund these absurd promises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 does this mean that after the banks and auto industry.....the consumer electronics industry can count on a bailout????? friggin sweet man.....i am gonna stop working so hard to help turn cc around....i am gonna let the govt do it.....awesome...... :lol: That's the spirit! Yes we can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Poojer Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 hahahaha...I want mine.....screw working for it...gimme gimme gimme That's the spirit! Yes we can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outsidethebox Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 If we let the big 3 fail, what happens to all the employees who will lose there jobs? We are going to pay either way, through unemployment benefits, retraining or even through food stamp and health care benefits. With the estimate of people being layed off between 3 and 4 million people. That will be ALOT of money spent. So I think they should bail them out, get rid of the idiots running these companies and force the unions to restructure pay to a more reasonable amount. Do I like this? No! But we are going to pay either way. I would rather bail them out then have millions of unemployed, possibly homeless families taking the hit instead of the fat cats walking away with millions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marv's Neighbor Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 I would make them go bankrupt..Let them fix their problems like every other American Business..I dont want my tax dollar helping them out..They get enough of my money as it is a month..2 GM car payments a month..They have their share of my money.. Obviously you have not watched: Bethlehem Steel, Republic Steel, many of the Airlines etc. Bankruptcy only protects the Companies and the CEO's. The companies survive and the employees and retirees start to receive your tax dollars via the Pension Benefit Guarantee Board. All the businesses that are owed money lose out and they recover, assuming they survive, by raising proces to future customers like us. Bankruptcy is a stacked deck against tax payers. God forbid we have another war. Who's going to build our trucks and tanks, Hyundai & KIA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outsidethebox Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 Obviously you have not watched: Bethlehem Steel, Republic Steel, many of the Airlines etc. Bankruptcy only protects the Companies and the CEO's. The companies survive and the employees and retirees start to receive your tax dollars via the Pension Benefit Guarantee Board. All the businesses that are owed money lose out and they recover, assuming they survive, by raising proces to future customers like us. Bankruptcy is a stacked deck against tax payers. God forbid we have another war. Who's going to build our trucks and tanks, Hyundai & KIA? What he said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acantha Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 Obviously you have not watched: Bethlehem Steel, Republic Steel, many of the Airlines etc. Bankruptcy only protects the Companies and the CEO's. The companies survive and the employees and retirees start to receive your tax dollars via the Pension Benefit Guarantee Board. All the businesses that are owed money lose out and they recover, assuming they survive, by raising proces to future customers like us. Bankruptcy is a stacked deck against tax payers. God forbid we have another war. Who's going to build our trucks and tanks, Hyundai & KIA? Do you think that no other company would be able step up and take the place of the failed ones? Are we really so stubborn and brainwashed that we can't imagine somebody else doing a better job that Ford and GM? It's that thinking that let the Japanese auto makers rise up and take over the market over the past two decades. Others will find a way to compete, if given the chance. You're right, bankruptcy laws and the PBGB are just as screwed up as the bailout. But that doesn't mean that it automatically makes the bailout better. You're still giving rewards to the worst run companies, no matter how you look it at. Let those secondary businesses figure out who they want to give their money to after the dust settles. Let the market decide who lives and dies. Those who decided not to run their companies into the ground will come out all the stronger, and it will encourage others to have strong business models in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 Do you want to toss all their retirees and their agreed-upon benefits, most all of who labored in good faith, into the ditch? Exactly. Well, it has been done before... See USS (US Steel). Nobody cried for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted November 16, 2008 Share Posted November 16, 2008 Again I agree totally. But why doesn't this apply to the banking industry? Everybody else is the red-headed step child. The "Kidlet Conundrum": Child: "Mom and dad, you bailed out big brother John Pierpont, Why can't you bail me out? Parent: "Tough-love child, get to know it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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