Tcali Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 We put in drastic reform measures. They only get the $$ after these measures are in place. Significantly cut pay and benefits and pensions. GM,FORD etc. are losing money on each vehicle. The business model is a joke. The deals struck between mgmt and the unions for the workers were and are unrealistic. COLD?? CRUEL?? not as cold or cruel as having the companies go belly up and having 100s of thousands lose their jobs and maybe millions lose 80% of their pension money(the pension guarantee ins fund--or whatever its called doesn't guarantee the whole amt--not even close) If these reforms aren't immediately put in--we will be needing to bail them out again in 3 yrs after they've gone thru the whole 25 billion. Our money will be wasted and they will probbly be in worse shape than they are in now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kegtapr Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 Fire all executives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WellDressed Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 We need to get Alfa's back here and the Maserati dealerships will have to hire more mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 We put in drastic reform measures. They only get the $$ after these measures are in place.Significantly cut pay and benefits and pensions. GM,FORD etc. are losing money on each vehicle. The business model is a joke. The deals struck between mgmt and the unions for the workers were and are unrealistic. COLD?? CRUEL?? not as cold or cruel as having the companies go belly up and having 100s of thousands lose their jobs and maybe millions lose 80% of their pension money(the pension guarantee ins fund--or whatever its called doesn't guarantee the whole amt--not even close) If these reforms aren't immediately put in--we will be needing to bail them out again in 3 yrs after they've gone thru the whole 25 billion. Our money will be wasted and they will probbly be in worse shape than they are in now. Do you want to toss all their retirees and their agreed-upon benefits, most all of who labored in good faith, into the ditch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stenbar Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 I would make them go bankrupt..Let them fix their problems like every other American Business..I dont want my tax dollar helping them out..They get enough of my money as it is a month..2 GM car payments a month..They have their share of my money.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcali Posted November 14, 2008 Author Share Posted November 14, 2008 Do you want to toss all their retirees and their agreed-upon benefits, most all of who labored in good faith, into the ditch? NO---but 50 cents on the dollar is gonna be better than 20 cents. Talk to the United Airlines pensioners who are receiving 22% of their original pension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcali Posted November 14, 2008 Author Share Posted November 14, 2008 I would make them go bankrupt..Let them fix their problems like every other American Business..I dont want my tax dollar helping them out..They get enough of my money as it is a month..2 GM car payments a month..They have their share of my money.. fine ....but the pensioners will end up with 20 plus cents on the dollar....-and this bailout MAY be the only way to strong arm these american auto co. idiots into doing something right. What horrible mismanagement for the past 30 years. disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 We put in drastic reform measures. They only get the $$ after these measures are in place.Significantly cut pay and benefits and pensions. GM,FORD etc. are losing money on each vehicle. The business model is a joke. The deals struck between mgmt and the unions for the workers were and are unrealistic. COLD?? CRUEL?? not as cold or cruel as having the companies go belly up and having 100s of thousands lose their jobs and maybe millions lose 80% of their pension money(the pension guarantee ins fund--or whatever its called doesn't guarantee the whole amt--not even close) If these reforms aren't immediately put in--we will be needing to bail them out again in 3 yrs after they've gone thru the whole 25 billion. Our money will be wasted and they will probbly be in worse shape than they are in now. I don't disagree that changes in the cost structure must be made. That goes for executives as well as for union workers. I probably wouldn't mess with benefits, too much, but I'm sure there are concessions that can be made. More importantly, IMO. the companies should only get the money if they have a clear workable plan to turn things around. That involves making cars that people actually want to buy. Also, these could be used as part of an incentive package for the car makers to get seriously involved in making vehicles that promote energy independence for the USA, as well as are more environmentally friendly. Do car makers REALLY need to really have yearly (and half yearly) releases of new models? Doesn't that do serious damage to the worth of their "perfectly good" unsold inventory? The auto industry is still using a very old business model. I would look at this bailout as an opportunity to finally break the US auto industry of some very bad habits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acantha Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 I would make them go bankrupt..Let them fix their problems like every other American Business..I dont want my tax dollar helping them out. Exactly. Why the hell are we bailing out businesses that are proven failures? Does it not make sense that the companies that have proven to be successful should reap the benefits of their hard work? Hello? It's friggin turning into bizzaro world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?showtopic=76209 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 Strategic bankruptcy is way to go. Government should let them fail and give them that chance. Financial markets have priced in F and GM bankruptcies for years, so it won't have an effect on them. They have an uncompetitive cost structure and going into bankruptcy gives them the leverage to restructure the costly labor and pension contracts. Bailout just turns them into walking dead "zombie companies" and the bailout money is a transfer of wealth to the uncostly contracts that are causing all the trouble in the 1st place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcali Posted November 14, 2008 Author Share Posted November 14, 2008 I don't disagree that changes in the cost structure must be made. That goes for executives as well as for union workers. I probably wouldn't mess with benefits, too much, but I'm sure there are concessions that can be made. More importantly, IMO. the companies should only get the money if they have a clear workable plan to turn things around. That involves making cars that people actually want to buy. Also, these could be used as part of an incentive package for the car makers to get seriously involved in making vehicles that promote energy independence for the USA, as well as are more environmentally friendly. Do car makers REALLY need to really have yearly (and half yearly) releases of new models? Doesn't that do serious damage to the worth of their "perfectly good" unsold inventory? The auto industry is still using a very old business model. I would look at this bailout as an opportunity to finally break the US auto industry of some very bad habits. Yes you make good points..and they should be part of the plan. However, the cost of salaries plus benefits for both working and retired is soo far out of the range of reality....This has to be addressed foremost. AND they have to start producing efficient vehicles ASAP. But producing efficient vehicles ....and vehicles that will sell better...will not solve the problem of the bloated compensation and salary system that they have. Pensions,and salaries have to be drastically cut. OR the free market will cut them 'herself'..and much more drastically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkyMannn Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 Do you want to toss all their retirees and their agreed-upon benefits, most all of who labored in good faith, into the ditch? Why should I, who has lesser wages and benies, support their's? You know Stuck, it IS their pay and benies among other issues that caused the mess they are in. I guarantee 10 years from now we will be bailing them out again. Mean while my company has killed off its pension and retiree medical, and I will be on my own. Not to mention Social Security tanking OK, a different spin on the bail-out. Benefits the taxpayers and GM, Ford, and Chrysler. Distribute that bail-out amount instead to potential buyers of domestically made vehicles. Joe Taxpayer gets a perk with a new car, and the increased sales volume revenue SHOULD help these auto-makers. And if that doesn't, then they deserve to go under Lastly, if the economy doesn't come around within a couple years, another American icon in Harley Davidson will go under too. So then we can bail them out. Hey, lets bail out the struggling airlines too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcali Posted November 14, 2008 Author Share Posted November 14, 2008 Strategic bankruptcy is way to go. Government should let them fail and give them that chance. Financial markets have priced in F and GM bankruptcies for years, so it won't have an effect on them. They have an uncompetitive cost structure and going into bankruptcy gives them the leverage to restructure the costly labor and pension contracts. Bailout just turns them into walking dead "zombie companies" and the bailout money is a transfer of wealth to the uncostly contracts that are causing all the trouble in the 1st place. well----just look at United ..and see where this restructuring of pension contracts has left the pensioners. Its not pretty.But...-you may be right...bankruptcy could be the only realistic way to go.--I was just hoping that the pension and salary cuts and job losses would be less severe if a bailout were done with the drastic measures I proposed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills_fan Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 Strategic bankruptcy is way to go. Government should let them fail and give them that chance. Financial markets have priced in F and GM bankruptcies for years, so it won't have an effect on them. They have an uncompetitive cost structure and going into bankruptcy gives them the leverage to restructure the costly labor and pension contracts. Bailout just turns them into walking dead "zombie companies" and the bailout money is a transfer of wealth to the uncostly contracts that are causing all the trouble in the 1st place. The airlines were able to continue operating while in bankruptcy, get significant restructing of onerous costs (not just labor) and emerge as more viable entities. This is the approach that should be used IMHO. You know there is a problem when GM, F and Chrysler are paying $73 an hour versus Honds, Toyota etc. paying $46. Let alone such thing as job pools (basically paying people not to work) etc. The pension costs will be guaranteed by the gov't anyway, to my knowledge, so its not like the workers who did labor in good faith would lose out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acantha Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 Why should I, who has lesser wages and benies, support their's? You know Stuck, it IS their pay and benies among other issues that caused the mess they are in. I guarantee 10 years from now we will be bailing them out again. Mean while my company has killed off its pension and retiree medical, and I will be on my own. Not to mention Social Security tanking OK, a different spin on the bail-out. Benefits the taxpayers and GM, Ford, and Chrysler. Distribute that bail-out amount instead to potential buyers of domestically made vehicles. Joe Taxpayer gets a perk with a new car, and the increased sales volume revenue SHOULD help these auto-makers. And if that doesn't, then they deserve to go under Lastly, if the economy doesn't come around within a couple years, another American icon in Harley Davidson will go under too. So then we can bail them out. Hey, lets bail out the struggling airlines too! Or, the government could buy all the cars, gut them and melt them down, and then use all the material to build more cars. Not only will that give the companies added sales revenue, but it will SAVE them money on new materials for new cars!!! There is no wonderful scenario that will work better than anything else. No matter what you do, you are still giving companies money that don't deserve. Once you do that, you have proven to businesses that they don't have to make good decisions. There will always be some money to bail you out. Even if it does come with a good strong talking to. The financial institutions are proving that right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 The airlines were able to continue operating while in bankruptcy, get significant restructing of onerous costs (not just labor) and emerge as more viable entities. This is the approach that should be used IMHO. You know there is a problem when GM, F and Chrysler are paying $73 an hour versus Honds, Toyota etc. paying $46. Let alone such thing as job pools (basically paying people not to work) etc. The pension costs will be guaranteed by the gov't anyway, to my knowledge, so its not like the workers who did labor in good faith would lose out. Plenty of content here. Though it may be overlooked. As it normally does on message boards. While trying to make a quick point you may have awoken the sleeping idiots. The '"shinny Crew" or the "how does it effect me crew." This bailout/loan is not an easy decision to make. Most people don't understand all the ramifications on letting things fall where they may fall on this. There's no easy answer. But then again, there are the few here who seem to know how to fix all this stuff. They're quite opinionated. People all across this land from St Augustine to Boston have an answer for this mess. I cant wait to read how they'd fix it having maybe no knowledge of the Auto industry in total and everything it effects. My opinion on this has been made on the PPP board. <this post is not really directed at you.> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcali Posted November 14, 2008 Author Share Posted November 14, 2008 The airlines were able to continue operating while in bankruptcy, get significant restructing of onerous costs (not just labor) and emerge as more viable entities. This is the approach that should be used IMHO. You know there is a problem when GM, F and Chrysler are paying $73 an hour versus Honds, Toyota etc. paying $46. Let alone such thing as job pools (basically paying people not to work) etc. The pension costs will be guaranteed by the gov't anyway, to my knowledge, so its not like the workers who did labor in good faith would lose out. Bills fan---the pension guarantee fund only guarantees pennies on the dollar..see United Airlines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills_fan Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 Bills fan---the pension guarantee fund only guarantees pennies on the dollar..see United Airlines. I did not know that, thanks for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante Posted November 14, 2008 Share Posted November 14, 2008 I would make them go bankrupt..Let them fix their problems like every other American Business..I dont want my tax dollar helping them out..They get enough of my money as it is a month..2 GM car payments a month..They have their share of my money.. I agree with that but its kinda hard to say no after you bailed out a bunch of non producing leaches in the banking industry. At least the auto industry keep lots of satellite companies working Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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