molson_golden2002 Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 I'll save our liberal friends the trouble of typing. You lost, get over it. LOL!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 I miss the old days when the people reporting the news had integrity. People like Dan Rather. Oh, wait. Nevermind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_House Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Are you suggesting that not knowing who said it also casts doubts on whether it was true in the first place? It's all hearsay, and not really important. Even if the source in the McCain campaign is identified, there is the possibility that he/she is lying. In fact, someone has to be bending the truth, because Palin's camp has called the allegations ridiculous. Anyways, the take away story from Fox News' report is more about the infighting going on in the McCain campaign, and the dislike of the Palin choice by many of the people associated with it, than that Palin is 'stupid'. I'm sure it's not unusual for folks to point fingers after a loss like this, and Palin is obviously a contentious figure, so it's not surprising that she's catching some flak. Higher ups in the McCain campaign have admitted that the Palin choice was impulsive and an attempt to 'go long' (ie a Hail Mary pick), so all of this reflects just as badly on them as on her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_House Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 "The fact that we can't identify the source of the story doesn't change the nature of the story itself." Also know as the "Verification? What's that?" philosophy of investigative reporting. Unnamed sources are used all the time in reporting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 It's all hearsay, and not really important. Even if the source in the McCain campaign is identified, there is the possibility that he/she is lying. In fact, someone has to be bending the truth, because Palin's camp has called the allegations ridiculous. Anyways, the take away story from Fox News' report is more about the infighting going on in the McCain campaign, and the dislike of the Palin choice by many of the people associated with it, than that Palin is 'stupid'. I'm sure it's not unusual for folks to point fingers after a loss like this, and Palin is obviously a contentious figure, so it's not surprising that she's catching some flak. Higher ups in the McCain campaign have admitted that the Palin choice was impulsive and an attempt to 'go long' (ie a Hail Mary pick), so all of this reflects just as badly on them as on her. True. But IMO if anyone in the history of VP candidates were to be accused of not knowing which countries were in North America or whether Africa is a country or continent, NO ONE would believe that were possible. They may take partisan jabs at the accusations and fake their belief, but no one deep down would believe it. With her, it's almost easy to believe, because of the dozen or even dozens of earlier comments we have actually seen which make you know she has no idea about certain things. That, to me, is what this story is about. That how is it possible to believe this allegation. And millions do believe it. Personally, I believe she didn't know about Africa, especially because it was backed up by another allegation that she believed South Africa was a region and not a country itself. I don't really believe that she didn't know about the three countries that made up North America. I believe that was likely a misstatement rather than something she just didn't know. God help us if she didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Funny, I just watched a PBS documentary on Lee Atwater... I wasn't asking to be a smartass, I was looking for actual clarification. Like I said already, I was always a bit skeptical about the Africa thing. Sorry, I honestly thought you were being a smartass. I really don't want to comment on the veracity of the story, as I have no idea either way. But I do firmly believe that the quote from AP is the epitome of irresponsible journalism. Every journalist seems to want to be the next Woodward or Bernstein...and forget that what made Woodward and Bernstein "Woodward and Bernstein" was the effort they put into verifying their story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Unnamed sources are used all the time in reporting. There's a difference between "anonymous source" and "we don't actually know who the source is." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Sorry, I honestly thought you were being a smartass. I really don't want to comment on the veracity of the story, as I have no idea either way. But I do firmly believe that the quote from AP is the epitome of irresponsible journalism. Every journalist seems to want to be the next Woodward or Bernstein...and forget that what made Woodward and Bernstein "Woodward and Bernstein" was the effort they put into verifying their story. Similar things however, were said to numerous different sources, at both sides of the political spectrum, as well as some in between. Carl Cameron is a decent reporter for FOX, and it seems unimaginable that he would make that report unless he thought it were true. Mike Allen of Politico, and Draper from the NYTimes are not known to be irresponsible journalists. And again, we have actually seen her, live, say similarly unbelievably stupid/naive things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_House Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 There's a difference between "anonymous source" and "we don't actually know who the source is." I'm sure Carl Cameron knows who he spoke to in the McCain campaign. That MSNBC doesn't know is not surprising, since Cameron works for Fox News. ETA: actually, it looks like there's a history of allegations against Cameron of fabricating stories: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Cameron Allegations of journalistic fraud Media watchdog groups claim that on a number of occasions Carl Cameron has fabricated statements by Democratic politicians, and that this was done to boost their Republican opponents. One claim cited by Media Matters for America was a claim that John Kerry labeled George W. Bush a "warmonger" who intended to create "perpetual war" around the world; Media Matters asserted that no such instance of that criticism ever occurred.[7] In another instance, Cameron wrote a story posted on the Fox News website which included fabricated quotes from Kerry; the senator purportedly called himself a "metrosexual" and Bush a "cowboy" and spoke effeminately about a manicure. Official Fox News spokesman Paul Schur later said it was intended to be an internal joke not for publication, and the network apologized for the piece, but only on its website, and only through a tag on the article in which these quotes appeared.[8] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Similar things however, were said to numerous different sources, at both sides of the political spectrum, as well as some in between. Carl Cameron is a decent reporter for FOX, and it seems unimaginable that he would make that report unless he thought it were true. Mike Allen of Politico, and Draper from the NYTimes are not known to be irresponsible journalists. And again, we have actually seen her, live, say similarly unbelievably stupid/naive things. And here we are again. Because the left has spent all the time proclaiming Palin an idiot, it's perfectly okay to take the leap of faith that an unsubstantiated story must have some kind of merit. You couldn't paint a more irresponsible picture of journalism, but irresponsible journalism is all but a birthright of the left, so why question it? We've all watched Biden make equally, if not MORE unbelievably stupid comments, and yet no one seems to be taking unsubstantiated blogs and running to report about them on a global scale. Gee, I wonder why that is? Honestly, I really think you folks on the left may want to stop with this "Palin is an idiot" thing because I think we all know that Vice President-elect Joe Biden is about to spend the next four years making Dan Quayle look like a Rhodes Scholar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted November 13, 2008 Author Share Posted November 13, 2008 Honestly, I really think you folks on the left may want to stop with this "Palin is an idiot" thing because I think we all know that Vice President-elect Joe Biden is about to spend the next four years making Dan Quayle look like a Rhodes Scholar. To be fair - I brought it up again because I didn't appreciate the nuance of the NYT article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Sorry, I honestly thought you were being a smartass. I really don't want to comment on the veracity of the story, as I have no idea either way. But I do firmly believe that the quote from AP is the epitome of irresponsible journalism. Every journalist seems to want to be the next Woodward or Bernstein...and forget that what made Woodward and Bernstein "Woodward and Bernstein" was the effort they put into verifying their story. If Woodward and Bernstein were working today they never would have been given the time to check it out because the news has become a business. Back in the day a news source would have multiple reporters who could work on a story. Since they've been treated as business' the budget cuts have reduced the accuracy. Vetting takes too long and if a news source takes time to vet a story then they are behind the other news sources that have already reported it and goodness knows they wouldn't want to miss a scoop or appear slow in their reporting. It would be great if a news source was started and treated as a NEWS SOURCE and not a business. That's never gonna happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Sorry, I honestly thought you were being a smartass. I really don't want to comment on the veracity of the story, as I have no idea either way. But I do firmly believe that the quote from AP is the epitome of irresponsible journalism. Every journalist seems to want to be the next Woodward or Bernstein...and forget that what made Woodward and Bernstein "Woodward and Bernstein" was the effort they put into verifying their story. If Woodward and Bernstein were working today they never would have been given the time to check it out because the news has become primarily a profit making business. Back in the day a news source would have multiple reporters who could work on a story. Since they've been treated as profit makers the budget cuts have reduced the accuracy. Vetting takes too long and if a news source takes time to vet a story then they are behind the other news sources that have already reported it and goodness knows they wouldn't want to miss a scoop or appear slow in their reporting. It would be great if a news source was started and treated as a NEWS SOURCE and not a business. That's never gonna happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molson_golden2002 Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 I'm sorry a Conservative Republican network reported a Conservative Republican operative had said that Palin was an idiot. Happy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_House Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 And here we are again. Because the left has spent all the time proclaiming Palin an idiot, it's perfectly okay to take the leap of faith that an unsubstantiated story must have some kind of merit. You couldn't paint a more irresponsible picture of journalism, but irresponsible journalism is all but a birthright of the left, so why question it? We've all watched Biden make equally, if not MORE unbelievably stupid comments, and yet no one seems to be taking unsubstantiated blogs and running to report about them on a global scale. Gee, I wonder why that is? Honestly, I really think you folks on the left may want to stop with this "Palin is an idiot" thing because I think we all know that Vice President-elect Joe Biden is about to spend the next four years making Dan Quayle look like a Rhodes Scholar. Just to clarify: the Africa story was first reported by Carl Cameron, Fox News' chief political correspondent for the McCain campaign. Fox News made the somewhat surprising decision to highlight this story, as Cameron was on their 7 PM news show hosted by Shepard Smith, then immediately afterward on the O'Reilly Factor at 8 PM. I'm sure it was probably reported again after that. So it wasn't some 'unsubstantiated blog' reporting this, it was someone that had been covering the McCain campaign for some time, and had been in contact with numerous persons associated with the campaign. Again, there are numerous possibilities regarding the story. The story could be true. Cameron's sources could be lying. Indeed, it's even possible that Cameron is lying (see my earlier post about past fabrications by Cameron). However, it's not just liberal bloggers that ran with the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blzrul Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 I for one will be happy when this female Kato Kaelin is out of the headlines. Then we can focus on something more important like two wars, a tanking economy, a failing education and healthcare system, crumbling infrastructure, and finding Jimmy Hoffa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Just to clarify: the Africa story was first reported by Carl Cameron, Fox News' chief political correspondent for the McCain campaign. Fox News made the somewhat surprising decision to highlight this story, as Cameron was on their 7 PM news show hosted by Shepard Smith, then immediately afterward on the O'Reilly Factor at 8 PM. I'm sure it was probably reported again after that. So it wasn't some 'unsubstantiated blog' reporting this, it was someone that had been covering the McCain campaign for some time, and had been in contact with numerous persons associated with the campaign. Again, there are numerous possibilities regarding the story. The story could be true. Cameron's sources could be lying. Indeed, it's even possible that Cameron is lying (see my earlier post about past fabrications by Cameron). However, it's not just liberal bloggers that ran with the story. A key point for me, though, is that the story broke on Fox News. I consider Fox News at all other times about as credible as the Weekly World News...I see no reason to change my mind now just because they reported about a Republican. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steely Dan Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 I for one will be happy when this female Kato Kaelin is out of the headlines. Then we can focus on something more important like two wars, a tanking economy, a failing education and healthcare system, crumbling infrastructure, and finding Jimmy Hoffa. The Sarah Palin thing is like a comedy show. She isn't taking away from any lawmaking she's just an amusing part of the news like the guy who gets his head stuck in the railing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 A key point for me, though, is that the story broke on Fox News. I consider Fox News at all other times about as credible as the Weekly World News...I see no reason to change my mind now just because they reported about a Republican. The Africa part of the story broke on Fox News. Other very similar allegations were reported earlier in NYT. Politico had similar stuff right about the same time. The Newsweek reporters got similar stuff earlier and yet held onto it until after the election. That is why it is so believable. Numerous organizations at different times with different sources (some of whose reporters were actually there embedded) making very similar claims, combined with 1] actually seeing her making equally stupid comments, 2] blatantly obvious moves by the McCain campaign to keep her from having to answer any tough questions at all from reporters and 3] choosing 3-4 topics to talk about at the debate instead of the 20 that were asked of her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PastaJoe Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 And here we are again. Because the left has spent all the time proclaiming Palin an idiot, it's perfectly okay to take the leap of faith that an unsubstantiated story must have some kind of merit. You couldn't paint a more irresponsible picture of journalism, but irresponsible journalism is all but a birthright of the left, so why question it? We've all watched Biden make equally, if not MORE unbelievably stupid comments, and yet no one seems to be taking unsubstantiated blogs and running to report about them on a global scale. Gee, I wonder why that is? Honestly, I really think you folks on the left may want to stop with this "Palin is an idiot" thing because I think we all know that Vice President-elect Joe Biden is about to spend the next four years making Dan Quayle look like a Rhodes Scholar. The difference of course is that Biden is known to be an informed and intelligent person who has been in the public eye for decades, but who sometimes doesn't properly articulate what he meant. Whereas Palin is new to the public and has yet to show that she is informed, given that her limited exposure has shown a lack of knowledge and a misunderstanding of facts, which is quite different than not properly articulating what she knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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