Cynical Posted November 11, 2008 Posted November 11, 2008 1. Dick Jauron's failure to challenge the Wes Welker catch in the first quarter is absolutely inexcusable. Big mistake on his part. That said, he did not cost the Bills the game at New England. While the knee-jerk reaction after a 3 game losing streak is to call for the coach's head, such calls are not warranted. Coach Jauron simply doesn't have the benefit of superior personnel at the offensive and defensive lines. Perhaps he's a part of these personnel decisions. But last I checked, we have a personnel department... There is no perhaps. He is part of the department. He's the guy that gets to decide who stays, who goes, and who gets to come in. Other than that, nice post.
truth on hold Posted November 11, 2008 Posted November 11, 2008 3. Yesterday should end all debates regarding Donte Whitner vs. Haloti Ngata. Whitner is a decent player and a nice leader. Ngata is an absolutely dominating force in just his 3rd year in the league. Passing on Ngata was a major miscalculation on the part of the front office and one that will be a source of regret for quite some time. The real question is this: Who was the "genius" behind this boneheaded move? Modrak? Levy? Jauron? All 3? Heck, Ngata is even leading Whitner in picks http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7761
Dawgg Posted November 11, 2008 Author Posted November 11, 2008 Heck, Ngata is even leading Whitner in pickshttp://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7761 The sad thing is that this isn't 20/20 hindsight. It was as plainly obvious on draft day as it is now: the Bills botched the 2006 draft. The number excuses people make for not picking Ngata is amazing. He's not suited for the Tampa 2, Kelly Gregg is more of a reason for the Ravens' success, he's lazy, character issues, and on and on and on... But at least Whitner has weekly pizza parties at his house
Philly McButterpants Posted November 11, 2008 Posted November 11, 2008 1. Dick Jauron's failure to challenge the Wes Welker catch in the first quarter is absolutely inexcusable. Big mistake on his part. That said, he did not cost the Bills the game at New England. While the knee-jerk reaction after a 3 game losing streak is to call for the coach's head, such calls are not warranted. Coach Jauron simply doesn't have the benefit of superior personnel at the offensive and defensive lines. Perhaps he's a part of these personnel decisions. But last I checked, we have a personnel department... I think that Dick is very much at fault for the vanilla game plans; the inability to shut down key opposition players in the same way they are able to shut down ours; the lack of blitzes; the lack of creativity and innovation and the general inability to have his players ready to play . . . I'm not calling for his head; I want him to do his job! We are not the Patriot*s. We can't just show up and expect to win.
BillsVet Posted November 11, 2008 Posted November 11, 2008 The sad thing is that this isn't 20/20 hindsight. It was as plainly obvious on draft day as it is now: the Bills botched the 2006 draft. The number excuses people make for not picking Ngata is amazing. He's not suited for the Tampa 2, Kelly Gregg is more of a reason for the Ravens' success, he's lazy, character issues, and on and on and on... But at least Whitner has weekly pizza parties at his house This board was so high on that 2006 draft during and after that season. To many, it was the foundation of the franchise because so many of those guys started. But much like DJ's style of coaching, the Bills went with the safe move on draft day with Whitner. Ngata was a little risky, albeit with a greater ceiling professionally. McCargo is clearly a bust, and demonstrates why bad teams should not move up that early. Youboty came on this year, but his injury history should be reason enough to declare him underwhelming. He just can't stay on the field. Simpson is an average FS, and saw the bench in a few games this year. Butler and Kyle Williams are serviceable starters, but will be replaced when a better player is available. (Although both got unnecessary extensions this season) Ellison was liked so much at WLB that Buffalo signed Mitchell in March. All in all, you have Whitner, average starters in Williams and Butler. Outside of that, the rest is depth. Dawgg, great post. The front office must be nuked with a real GM hired to make this team competitive again.
JStranger76 Posted November 12, 2008 Posted November 12, 2008 I agree with so much of this thread that I have absolutely nothing to add, except a big thumbs up! I like Whitner, but would of loved Ngata.
FGD Posted November 12, 2008 Posted November 12, 2008 Agree with everything except Lynch. But your overall point is excellent! Everyone gets fired up over Ralph the Cheap. Its really about who you invest in not how much. The Bills are not dedicated to winning the are dedicated to carrying out Ralph's estate plan. Don't want to spend alot on players, smart in my book for the most part. But who are the lockerroom leaders who have won?. Not on this team. But the real crime is how they shave dollars on the staff and the GM. When was the last time a coach got hired off the Bills as a HC, OC or DC? Its all cheap OJT peter principle sh--! From Gregg Williams to Mike Mularky to Dick Jaron its about cheap inexperienced staffs leading inexperienced teams. Again we have a team that can't adjust and gets beaten down to the point where it loses confidence and has no identity. Why because no one in the front office, on the staff and in the lockerroom is a proven winner! The topper is the inability to build either line. I can't recall more linemen who have had as much time to prove they can't play. Because Johnny U, Dan Fouts, Marino, Kelly, Montana and anyone else would not be able to get this team in the play-offs. Most of you saw the Giants-Eagles game or the even Colts-Steelers game and I am sorry, but the gulf between those teams and our beloved Bills is seriously wide. It starts with the lines, especially with a young QB. It the lines built from the inside out and at center the Bills can't get it done. While it would be fun to ride Fowler and Preston, it would be cheap fun because the real flaw is management's for asking guys to do things they can't.
CardsScott Posted November 12, 2008 Posted November 12, 2008 Lynch is still a damn good back we would be around 2-7 without him he can't block and run at the same time How does the signing of Dockery continue to go unnoticed as much bitchin as Peters takes the guy right next to him lines up for 49 million dollars and stinks the joint up every week but somehow every seems to skip it. also have you seen the contracts of Denney and Kelsay ?? wtf - Schobel is at least a good player when healthy these other two are not NFL caliber players
sac bills Posted November 12, 2008 Posted November 12, 2008 Lynch's biggest problem isn't Lynch. It's the pathetic O-Line. Jason Peters has shown me nothing. Lynch never goes down on first contact, despite always getting hit at the line or behind it. And with one legit WR, defenses can devote more attention to you. It's why screens to Lynch never do anyting - there's always a defender right there waiting for him. It's also a matter of getting into a groove, which is hard to to when you rush about 11 times a game.
Dawgg Posted November 12, 2008 Author Posted November 12, 2008 Lynch's biggest problem isn't Lynch. It's the pathetic O-Line. Jason Peters has shown me nothing. Lynch never goes down on first contact, despite always getting hit at the line or behind it. And with one legit WR, defenses can devote more attention to you. It's why screens to Lynch never do anyting - there's always a defender right there waiting for him.It's also a matter of getting into a groove, which is hard to to when you rush about 11 times a game. Lynch hustles. Lynch plays hard. But he does juke a bit too much and he needs to improve his vision to reach the next level. Otherwise, he'll continue to tease you with 65 yard games.
TheChimp Posted November 12, 2008 Posted November 12, 2008 Agree with everything except Lynch. But your overall point is excellent! Everyone gets fired up over Ralph the Cheap. Its really about who you invest in not how much. The Bills are not dedicated to winning the are dedicated to carrying out Ralph's estate plan. Don't want to spend alot on players, smart in my book for the most part. But who are the lockerroom leaders who have won?. Not on this team. But the real crime is how they shave dollars on the staff and the GM. When was the last time a coach got hired off the Bills as a HC, OC or DC? Its all cheap OJT peter principle sh--! From Gregg Williams to Mike Mularky to Dick Jaron its about cheap inexperienced staffs leading inexperienced teams. Again we have a team that can't adjust and gets beaten down to the point where it loses confidence and has no identity. Why because no one in the front office, on the staff and in the lockerroom is a proven winner! The topper is the inability to build either line. I can't recall more linemen who have had as much time to prove they can't play. Because Johnny U, Dan Fouts, Marino, Kelly, Montana and anyone else would not be able to get this team in the play-offs. Most of you saw the Giants-Eagles game or the even Colts-Steelers game and I am sorry, but the gulf between those teams and our beloved Bills is seriously wide. It starts with the lines, especially with a young QB. It the lines built from the inside out and at center the Bills can't get it done. While it would be fun to ride Fowler and Preston, it would be cheap fun because the real flaw is management's for asking guys to do things they can't. Pretty much.
Rico Posted November 12, 2008 Posted November 12, 2008 Nice post, Dawgg. 3. Yesterday should end all debates regarding Donte Whitner vs. Haloti Ngata. Whitner is a decent player and a nice leader. Ngata is an absolutely dominating force in just his 3rd year in the league. Passing on Ngata was a major miscalculation on the part of the front office and one that will be a source of regret for quite some time. The real question is this: Who was the "genius" behind this boneheaded move? Modrak? Levy? Jauron? All 3? The far-greater bone-headed move IMO was the decision to implement Tampa-2 as the base defense (Lil' Donte would've never come here at #8 without that happening first, and Ngata very well could've been the one to take Sam Adams' place). And it could've come from anyone: Ralph demanding immediate changes, Marv reacting to a Ralph mandate & looking for a quick-fix, Jauron wanting to install it (though I don't believe he ever coached it in Detroit or Chicago... think those teams switched after he left with the arrivals of Lovie Smith & Rod Marinelli). Whoever was responsible, the decision to switch was a massive blunder... a couple teams may have had some success with it, but it truly is a defense for losers . I would scrap it in a second for a more traditional 4-3 or 3-4, but the way the current roster is set-up, it'd be very hard to pull off (though getting Mitchell & Stroud this year could be a start in the right direction if they wise-up and decide to go that route).
Dawgg Posted November 12, 2008 Author Posted November 12, 2008 Nice post, Dawgg.The far-greater bone-headed move IMO was the decision to implement Tampa-2 as the base defense (Lil' Donte would've never come here at #8 without that happening first, and Ngata very well could've been the one to take Sam Adams' place). And it could've come from anyone: Ralph demanding immediate changes, Marv reacting to a Ralph mandate & looking for a quick-fix, Jauron wanting to install it (though I don't believe he ever coached it in Detroit or Chicago... think those teams switched after he left with the arrivals of Lovie Smith & Rod Marinelli). Whoever was responsible, the decision to switch was a massive blunder... a couple teams may have had some success with it, but it truly is a defense for losers . I would scrap it in a second for a more traditional 4-3 or 3-4, but the way the current roster is set-up, it'd be very hard to pull off (though getting Mitchell & Stroud this year could be a start in the right direction if they wise-up and decide to go that route). Good point. I think it was Marv. He tried ever so hard to emulate Polian and the Colts, who also ran the Tampa 2. He even signed their trash (Larry Triplett) from Indianapolis to a big contract, only to cut him 2 seasons later.
2003Contenders Posted November 12, 2008 Posted November 12, 2008 The sad thing is that this isn't 20/20 hindsight. It was as plainly obvious on draft day as it is now: the Bills botched the 2006 draft. The number excuses people make for not picking Ngata is amazing. He's not suited for the Tampa 2, Kelly Gregg is more of a reason for the Ravens' success, he's lazy, character issues, and on and on and on... But at least Whitner has weekly pizza parties at his house Actually, Dawgg, that isn't quite true. There were murmurs leading up to the draft that Ngata had the bad habit of not giving 100% on every play. Clearly he has been a difference-maker for the Ravens, and it is hard to argue that he wouln't have been a better selection than Whitner was at the time. However, I think that Marv was worried about questions regarding his maturity level. I think that Jauron had questions about whether or not he fit well into the new Cover-2 defensive scheme that they were implementing at the time. Looking back, I also wonder how much his playing on a defense with so much surrounding talent and leadership played a role in Ngata reaching his potential. I wonder, for example, if he would have been such a dominant player for the Bills. In the final analysis, I whole-heartedly believe that the Whitner pick was made because he was a safe choice and one that everyone in the War Room was on board with.
FGD Posted November 12, 2008 Posted November 12, 2008 The comments on this thread about the Tampa 2 reminds me of another HUGE weakness of the Bills since the Super Bowl loses. An inability to coach to talent! The point about Ngata vs. Whitner is perfect. But my favorite is Gregg Williams and his facination with light fast DEs. Problem is they have to be Jevon Kerse fast and strong and even then its a joke to look for a freak because freaks by definition are unique. A better gets the best talent and builds accordingly.
Dawgg Posted November 13, 2008 Author Posted November 13, 2008 There were murmurs leading up to the draft that Ngata had the bad habit of not giving 100% on every play. There were also murmurs that Marshawn Lynch had some off-field issues. There were also murmurs that James Hardy had some off-field issues. The Bills investigated them and chose them anyway. The same could (and should) have happened in the case of Ngata. Realistically speaking, I think its pretty clear what happened. Marv was infatuated with McCargo and felt he could get adequate value taking him later on in the draft, paving the way for our favorite party-host to be selected about 7-8 slots early.
Bill from NYC Posted November 13, 2008 Posted November 13, 2008 The sad thing is that this isn't 20/20 hindsight. It was as plainly obvious on draft day as it is now: the Bills botched the 2006 draft. The number excuses people make for not picking Ngata is amazing. He's not suited for the Tampa 2, Kelly Gregg is more of a reason for the Ravens' success, he's lazy, character issues, and on and on and on... But at least Whitner has weekly pizza parties at his house It isn't all about Ngata. It is about the Levy/Jauron mindset. If they had accepted one of the numerous offers to trade down, they could have drafted either Davin Joseph or Nick Mangold and Jeremy Trueblood. The would have still had enough picks to blow on Mccargo who sucks, but at least they did try to get a DT. Levy/Jauron wanted Whitner and the other dbs at all costs. It never made sense, and we continue to pay the price, and this is not to mention McKelvin at #11.
Rico Posted November 13, 2008 Posted November 13, 2008 It isn't all about Ngata. It is about the Levy/Jauron mindset. If they had accepted one of the numerous offers to trade down, they could have drafted either Davin Joseph or Nick Mangold and Jeremy Trueblood. The would have still had enough picks to blow on Mccargo who sucks, but at least they did try to get a DT. Levy/Jauron wanted Whitner and the other dbs at all costs. It never made sense, and we continue to pay the price, and this is not to mention McKelvin at #11. Again, IMO that draft was all about the mindset created when they decided to switch to Tampa 2, not any fascination with DBs.- Two safeties (position that is over-valued because of the scheme) - a CB to eventually replace Nate (don't need a stud lockdown CB in the system, use the $ elsewhere) - 2 DTs (trade up for a prototype 3-tech for Tampa 2, the other one for depth/rotation in the scheme) - keep Fletch for a year & draft his replacement in 2007 (Pos) I don't think there's any way those picks/trades in 2006 (at least the ones on Day 1) would've been made if they kept the 4-3. As for the McKelvin pick, that's hard to figure out... probably just best value in their opinion left on the board.
dave mcbride Posted November 13, 2008 Posted November 13, 2008 This board was so high on that 2006 draft during and after that season. To many, it was the foundation of the franchise because so many of those guys started. But much like DJ's style of coaching, the Bills went with the safe move on draft day with Whitner. Ngata was a little risky, albeit with a greater ceiling professionally. McCargo is clearly a bust, and demonstrates why bad teams should not move up that early. Youboty came on this year, but his injury history should be reason enough to declare him underwhelming. He just can't stay on the field. Simpson is an average FS, and saw the bench in a few games this year. Butler and Kyle Williams are serviceable starters, but will be replaced when a better player is available. (Although both got unnecessary extensions this season) Ellison was liked so much at WLB that Buffalo signed Mitchell in March. All in all, you have Whitner, average starters in Williams and Butler. Outside of that, the rest is depth. Dawgg, great post. The front office must be nuked with a real GM hired to make this team competitive again. They had an excellent draft the next year. Poz is great (he's fifth in the league in tackles right now and a central reason why the Bills run D is better), Edwards is good, and so is Lynch. So give them credit for that.
Flbillsfan#1 Posted November 13, 2008 Posted November 13, 2008 believe you me, this whole coaching staff is going to go down in flames, it is only a matter of time. if not this year then next. clean house except for a few assistants. the coordinators and HC must go I'm with you. The sooner the better.
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