Bill from NYC Posted October 25, 2004 Posted October 25, 2004 Please consider the possibility of a tradedown for extra, less costly picks. I think that it was a stupid trade and would rather have the pick, but I hope to be proven wrong.
YOOOOOO Posted October 25, 2004 Posted October 25, 2004 I'd like to see Losman play a couple years before I decide if it was or wasnt a bad trade....
Alaska Darin Posted October 25, 2004 Posted October 25, 2004 Please consider the possibility of a tradedown for extra, less costly picks. I think that it was a stupid trade and would rather have the pick, but I hope to be proven wrong. 85484[/snapback] I think it's a great trade, especially if we'd have ended up with a Top 5 draft choice. History shows us that AT LEAST 3 of the top 5 picks in every draft will NEVER play anywhere near their cap number. One will be a stud and worthy of the money and the 5th may or may not be. Given those numbers, I'd much rather have the money to go to free agency and get a proven veteran or two for similiar money. It comes down to this question: Takeo Spikes or Mike Williams? The draft is a crapshoot.
CajunBillsBacker Posted October 25, 2004 Posted October 25, 2004 We really won't know until Losman has played a couple years to see how much Favre-like he really is. Personally, i'd rather have Losman over a top 5 pick because all top 5 picks do is break your salary cap. See Mike Williams.
Frez Posted October 25, 2004 Posted October 25, 2004 How much do we trust Donahoe? That is the question of this deal. Can he draft or can he screw this pick up also.
nodnarb Posted October 25, 2004 Posted October 25, 2004 that trade can't be valued now and it can't be valued at this time next season either. Give players at least 3 years in one system before you label them. Right now, I believe it's safe to say that M Williams was a bust PER HIS SPOT. He'd have been a Great 5th round find. But a #4 overall pick must be dominant at his position. I hope that Big Mike has a Big Character and gives a little back to this team. We have him long term, but he should recognize that he hasn't played up to that level. If he would agree to a cap savings re-structure with some incentives, he could a lotta trust. Can you imagine working in an environment where you're getting paid more than most of the other players on the team but you know and everyone else knows you're not playing nearly up to that level of compensation? Knowing that there are players earning 400,000 that are outplaying you? (Marcus Price) Man up, big guy. Josh Reed. We should all be disappointed. He looked SOOOo good in camp. That's what he is, a camp star. What does that tell you? Maybe he plays scared. Not good. I'd say Aiken is outplaying him, but Aiken hasn't done anything either.
Dawgg Posted October 25, 2004 Posted October 25, 2004 I disagree with that notion. While you're right that the draft is a crapshoot, a Top 5 pick is a Top 5 pick. You can look at it in one of two ways: a great can't-miss player or a bargaining chip to throw on other teams. I'd much rather have that bargaining chip than not. A few years ago, The Jets gave Arizona two mid-round 1st rounders (#13 and 22) for the right to pick at #4 and take Dewayne Robertson. The Falcons gave the Chargers a bunch of productive NFL players for the right to take Mike Vick. The Saints gave up their whole draft to move up to #5 and take Ricky Williams In any case, suppose we took that pick and traded down for some low first and/or high second rounders. We can get quality players with little risk from a salary cap standpoint. I think it's a great trade, especially if we'd have ended up with a Top 5 draft choice. History shows us that AT LEAST 3 of the top 5 picks in every draft will NEVER play anywhere near their cap number. One will be a stud and worthy of the money and the 5th may or may not be. Given those numbers, I'd much rather have the money to go to free agency and get a proven veteran or two for similiar money. It comes down to this question: Takeo Spikes or Mike Williams? The draft is a crapshoot. 85489[/snapback]
Guest Guest Posted October 25, 2004 Posted October 25, 2004 I think it's a great trade, especially if we'd have ended up with a Top 5 draft choice. History shows us that AT LEAST 3 of the top 5 picks in every draft will NEVER play anywhere near their cap number. One will be a stud and worthy of the money and the 5th may or may not be. Given those numbers, I'd much rather have the money to go to free agency and get a proven veteran or two for similiar money. It comes down to this question: Takeo Spikes or Mike Williams? The draft is a crapshoot. 85489[/snapback] So why don't teams swap their first round picks for second round picks, or pick 5 for pick 18 in a draft or something like that? If the draft's a crapshoot, then how can you say Losman is the better half of the deal when he's never taken a snap? The mistake is in talent evaluation and management of draft resources. Donahoe's drafts have been incredibly weak and he's given up too much cache twice trading for QB's, so the cap consequences of his mistakes higher in the draft will be more punitive. Jammer, Henderson, McKinnie, Roy Williams (S), and Freeney were five of the seven players taken after Mike Williams, and they're not killing their teams by any stretch. Only Levi Jones has been a bigger bust (jury kind of out on Sims).
Alaska Darin Posted October 25, 2004 Posted October 25, 2004 I disagree with that notion. While you're right that the draft is a crapshoot, a Top 5 pick is a Top 5 pick. You can look at it in one of two ways: a great can't-miss player or a bargaining chip to throw on other teams. I'd much rather have that bargaining chip than not. A few years ago, The Jets gave Arizona two mid-round 1st rounders (#13 and 22) for the right to pick at #4 and take Dewayne Robertson. The Falcons gave the Chargers a bunch of productive NFL players for the right to take Mike Vick. The Saints gave up their whole draft to move up to #5 and take Ricky Williams In any case, suppose we took that pick and traded down for some low first and/or high second rounders. We can get quality players with little risk from a salary cap standpoint. 85507[/snapback] You're free to do just that. However, only about 1/3rd of all first round picks ever play up to their billing. You just showed pretty much EVERY example of what trading a pick can do to help a team, which over the timeline waters down just how great the return actually is. You're also implying that there would be a willing dance partner should we want to deal. The next draft could just as easily be the equivalent of 1991 or 1992. That's an awful lot of "ifs" to deal with when there will likely be some very good veterans available who are professional players and are far more easily adaptable. Care to tell me who the highest drafted player is on the N.E. Patriots roster is?
Guest Guest_eyedog_* Posted October 26, 2004 Posted October 26, 2004 Off the top of my head I'd say Willie McGinist. Around 6th or 7th overall and that was like ten years ago.
Alaska Darin Posted October 26, 2004 Posted October 26, 2004 So why don't teams swap their first round picks for second round picks, or pick 5 for pick 18 in a draft or something like that? If the draft's a crapshoot, then how can you say Losman is the better half of the deal when he's never taken a snap? The mistake is in talent evaluation and management of draft resources. Donahoe's drafts have been incredibly weak and he's given up too much cache twice trading for QB's, so the cap consequences of his mistakes higher in the draft will be more punitive. Jammer, Henderson, McKinnie, Roy Williams (S), and Freeney were five of the seven players taken after Mike Williams, and they're not killing their teams by any stretch. Only Levi Jones has been a bigger bust (jury kind of out on Sims). 85513[/snapback] It's about the number. You are looking at a short list from one draft. Go back over the last 15 years and look at all the first rounders. You will see that about 33% of them play to their number. Another 33% become productive NFL players (though overpaid), with the remaining being busts. That's a pretty decent percentage of chance to take when you think about what a proven veteran can do for similiar financial consideration. Teams don't swap their picks for a variety of reasons that are pretty easy to understand. You also don't see N.E. (a team with multiple first rounders) packaging them up to move up and get the so called "impact" players. Losman has all the tools to be a good NFL QB - maybe even a great one. They aren't exactly growing them on trees these days. Packaging a couple of picks and freeing up some future cap room at the same time for a chance at a guy like that is pretty smart. Time will tell.
Guest Guest_eyedog_* Posted October 26, 2004 Posted October 26, 2004 Seymour was the 6th I think a couple of years ago.
Dawgg Posted October 26, 2004 Posted October 26, 2004 First things first. I definitely think there are trading partners willing to move up to the Top 5. It happens every year and most teams, if they really covet one player in particular would give up their first and second to move into the top 5 in a heartbeat. That said, I think having first rounders in the late teens to early 20's has great value because you are essentially signing potential starters and major contributors for what amounts to peanuts under the cap. Take Antoine Winfield and Nate Clements, for example. The team was able to draft them for cheap and got a solid 5-6 years out of them. Care to tell me who the highest drafted player is on the N.E. Patriots roster is? 85514[/snapback] I'm doing this from the top of my head so this might not be exactly right, but NE does have a few solid first round players on their D. Willie McGinnest - Top 4. Richard Seymour - Top 5 Ty Warren - Top 20 Ty Law - Top 20 Willfork - Top 20
Dawgg Posted October 26, 2004 Posted October 26, 2004 Losman has all the tools to be a good NFL QB - maybe even a great one. They aren't exactly growing them on trees these days. Packaging a couple of picks and freeing up some future cap room at the same time for a chance at a guy like that is pretty smart. Time will tell. 85522[/snapback] I agree with this assertion. Where I find fault with this strategy is the idea that this team was in absolute need of 2 first round picks, thereby mortaging the future because of it. If a franchise QB is truly as hard to come by as you say, then the front office could (and should) have moved down from 13 to the low 20's, drafted Losman, and acquired some extra picks and addressed the WR position later. In the event that a trading partner could not be found, simply take Losman at 13. In their search for a quaterback since Jim Kelly's retirement, the Bills have spent FOUR first round picks. 1 went to the Jags for Rob Johnson (and became Fred Taylor) 1 went to the Pats for Drew Bledsoe (and became Ty Warren) 1 went to the Bills to select Losman 1 went to the Cowboys for 2005 Pretty ridiculous if you ask me.
Alaska Darin Posted October 26, 2004 Posted October 26, 2004 If Dallas ends up having an opportunity to take Matt Leinart with our first round pick, I'll be VERY upset.Leinart is going to be a stud. 85539[/snapback] How do you know? Heath Shuler was going to be a stud. There are so many examples of productive college QBs who didn't make it it really isn't worth the time to argue the point. Leinhart might blow out his knee next week and never play another snap. Tough to bank your future on a guy who may or may not be available when your choice comes up next season.
Guest Guest_eyedog_* Posted October 26, 2004 Posted October 26, 2004 They can have Leinart. I'm not as big on him as most. I think Rodgers at Cal is better. I don't think they will take a qb.
HeyNowBuffalo Posted October 26, 2004 Posted October 26, 2004 If Dallas ends up having an opportunity to take Matt Leinart with our first round pick, I'll be VERY upset.Leinart is going to be a stud. 85539[/snapback] They could have two picks in the top 7-10... They'll be able to take whoever they want if they're willing to wheel and deal
Alaska Darin Posted October 26, 2004 Posted October 26, 2004 I agree with this assertion. Where I find fault with this strategy is the idea that this team was in absolute need of 2 first round picks, thereby mortaging the future because of it. If a franchise QB is truly as hard to come by as you say, then the front office could (and should) have moved down from 13 to the low 20's, drafted Losman, and acquired some extra picks and addressed the WR position later. In the event that a trading partner could not be found, simply take Losman at 13. In their search for a quaterback since Jim Kelly's retirement, the Bills have spent FOUR first round picks. 1 went to the Jags for Rob Johnson (and became Fred Taylor) 1 went to the Pats for Drew Bledsoe (and became Ty Warren) 1 went to the Bills to select Losman 1 went to the Cowboys for 2005 Pretty ridiculous if you ask me. 85533[/snapback] We only traded one first rounder to the Cowboys for Losman. They gave us a pick we didn't have to select him. That's not really 2 picks. I doubt if John Butler would have traded for Johnson if he had a "do over". Of course, he did pick Erik Flowers, so who knows? Drew re-energized the franchise for 8 games. Who knew he would plummet so dramatically? QBs aren't grown on trees. There's obviously alot of luck involved drafting them. Polian actually admitted having a hard time picking between Manning and Leaf.
Dawgg Posted October 26, 2004 Posted October 26, 2004 We only traded one first rounder to the Cowboys for Losman. They gave us a pick we didn't have to select him. That's not really 2 picks. 85552[/snapback] I was just pointing out the number of first rounders we have used to address the QB position, so in that sense, I do count the one we used to select a QB. But I'm not saying the team was wrong in selecting JP with a first rounder. I'm simply saying why not do it without morgaging our future. If that means passing up on Lee Evans, so be it.
1billsfan Posted October 26, 2004 Posted October 26, 2004 The question might end up being 'how come Dallas didn't take JP?'. At least we have a QB to turn to right now. Plus we have Evans and McGahee! I'm excited to see what Loseman can do and we don't have to wait till next season.
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