Big Auto Wants $50B

[Fan in Chicago]

Relevant interesting point-counterpoint in here:

Few snippets (all quotes from these blogs)

Against bail-out:

GM was paying $5 billion per year in health benefits to retirees and current employees ...

Bankruptcy would help GM and Ford become more competitive by abrogating significant parts of their labor contracts with the UAW...

Bankruptcy may also force out the current management of GM and Ford.

I do not believe the company is too big to go into a reorganization-which is what bankruptcy would involve.

 

For bail-out:

- they might be unable to attract the substantial post-bankruptcy loans that they would need to enable them to remain in business...

- ...would cause bankruptcy to greatly exacerbate the nation's already dire economic condition.

- The likely psychological impact of a bankruptcy of the U.S.-owned auto industry should not be underestimated

 

--------------------------------

I am not sure where I stand on the issue. If government is propping up the banks, it is with the implicit hope that they will resume lending. So if the auto makers file Chapter 11, they should still be able to attract funding from these banks. I think the bogey is of '240,000' un-employed people. I have a tough time accepting that as the nation still needs the cars made by these companies. It is not that suddenly the Big-3 will close shop and walk away. Perhaps someone will buy them on the cheap and have then continue as a going concern.

[pBills]

Relevant interesting point-counterpoint in here:

Few snippets (all quotes from these blogs)

Against bail-out:

GM was paying $5 billion per year in health benefits to retirees and current employees ...

Bankruptcy would help GM and Ford become more competitive by abrogating significant parts of their labor contracts with the UAW...

Bankruptcy may also force out the current management of GM and Ford.

I do not believe the company is too big to go into a reorganization-which is what bankruptcy would involve.

 

For bail-out:

- they might be unable to attract the substantial post-bankruptcy loans that they would need to enable them to remain in business...

- ...would cause bankruptcy to greatly exacerbate the nation's already dire economic condition.

- The likely psychological impact of a bankruptcy of the U.S.-owned auto industry should not be underestimated

 

--------------------------------

I am not sure where I stand on the issue. If government is propping up the banks, it is with the implicit hope that they will resume lending. So if the auto makers file Chapter 11, they should still be able to attract funding from these banks. I think the bogey is of '240,000' un-employed people. I have a tough time accepting that as the nation still needs the cars made by these companies. It is not that suddenly the Big-3 will close shop and walk away. Perhaps someone will buy them on the cheap and have then continue as a going concern.

 

 

Interesting thing to note is that the UAW has already reworked the health care benefits for retirees. I am sure that they would rework active members if the company had some sort of retooling with it's management.

[IDBillzFan]

Interesting. I may have to change my mind about this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72cHfOKoA1c

After watching that video, I gave thought to changing my mind as well, until I got to the end. How is it that three companies are so big, so powerful and so important -- to the extent that their collapse will !@#$ the lives of 13 million people and actually JEOPARDIZE national security -- and yet they have run themselves into the ground so badly? Where is the confidence that giving them all this money will fix the problem? Where is the confidence that they intend to change their practices so as to become independent and reliable companies?

 

I don't see any. I just see bad managers hopping private jets to beg for money so they can get back on their private jets and keep their high-priced jobs that result in shitttty products and bad management. Let the market decide their fate and hold those idiots accountable for their irresponsible ways, and if that means bankruptcy, then so be it.

 

They'll figure it out, as will the rest of us. But giving them money is not the answer because as long as they keep doing what they're doing, we'll keep getting what we're getting.

[pBills]

After watching that video, I gave thought to changing my mind as well, until I got to the end. How is it that three companies are so big, so powerful and so important -- to the extent that their collapse will !@#$ the lives of 13 million people and actually JEOPARDIZE national security -- and yet they have run themselves into the ground so badly? Where is the confidence that giving them all this money will fix the problem? Where is the confidence that they intend to change their practices so as to become independent and reliable companies?

 

I don't see any. I just see bad managers hopping private jets to beg for money so they can get back on their private jets and keep their high-priced jobs that result in shitttty products and bad management. Let the market decide their fate and hold those idiots accountable for their irresponsible ways, and if that means bankruptcy, then so be it.

 

They'll figure it out, as will the rest of us. But giving them money is not the answer because as long as they keep doing what they're doing, we'll keep getting what we're getting.

 

 

So let the market knock them into bankruptcy and who cares about the workers. That will show the bad managers that they suck.

[Endzone Animal]

Big American union wages way too high, big American auto company makes inferior product, big American auto company charges too much for product, big American auto sells too few cars, big American auto company and big American union receive federal subsidy of $55 billion, big American company and big American union repeat process...

 

Sounds about right.

[pBills]

Big American union wages way too high, big American auto company makes inferior product, big American auto company charges too much for product, big American auto sells too few cars, big American auto company and big American union receive federal subsidy of $55 billion, big American company and big American union repeat process...

 

Sounds about right.

 

 

 

What does the average worker at a toyota plant make?

 

Inferior product... maybe a few years ago or longer.

 

Talk about subsidies... look at what Walmart gets and they are not unionized.

[Endzone Animal]

What does the average worker at a toyota plant make?

Don't know...could you research that and get back to us with the numbers? Thanks.

 

Inferior product... maybe a few years ago or longer.

Inferior still. If it was as good or better than the competition we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

Talk about subsidies... look at what Walmart gets and they are not unionized.

Don't know what they get...could you research that and get back to us with the numbers? Thanks.

[IDBillzFan]

So let the market knock them into bankruptcy and who cares about the workers. That will show the bad managers that they suck.

Thanks for not reading virtually a thing I wrote and just playing the gratuitous "But what bout the workers?" fiddle.

 

That's NO reason to give the auto makers more money to keep doing what they're doing, Mrs. Pelosi. In fact, that's the epitome of throwing good money after bad. It's reckless and irresponsible, but I think we all know in the world of people like Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, personal accountability is not required nor expected. Just throw money at the problem because it's what they know best.

 

And if you really want to just throw money at the problem in hopes it'll correct itself, let's meet in the middle: instead of just handing $50B to these idiots, let the US give big rebates to people if they buy an American car, and have the UAW float a loan to the Big 3 to get them through this self-inflicted crisis. I mean, they spent so much money getting Obama into office, surely they have some extra dough to put where their mouth is and really protect their workers, no?

[pBills]

Thanks for not reading virtually a thing I wrote and just playing the gratuitous "But what bout the workers?" fiddle.

 

That's NO reason to give the auto makers more money to keep doing what they're doing, Mrs. Pelosi. In fact, that's the epitome of throwing good money after bad. It's reckless and irresponsible, but I think we all know in the world of people like Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, personal accountability is not required nor expected. Just throw money at the problem because it's what they know best.

 

And if you really want to just throw money at the problem in hopes it'll correct itself, let's meet in the middle: instead of just handing $50B to these idiots, let the US give big rebates to people if they buy an American car, and have the UAW float a loan to the Big 3 to get them through this self-inflicted crisis. I mean, they spent so much money getting Obama into office, surely they have some extra dough to put where their mouth is and really protect their workers, no?

 

 

I agree with not just handing them money. Things do need to change and change fast. Although, I guess it was good to throw money at AIG.

 

I do believe that there needs to be a major change in leadership for the three companies. I would love to see them trim down the lines and maybe have GM absorb Chrysler. That would just be the tippy top of what needs to be done.

[IDBillzFan]

I agree with not just handing them money. Things do need to change and change fast. Although, I guess it was good to throw money at AIG.

 

I do believe that there needs to be a major change in leadership for the three companies. I would love to see them trim down the lines and maybe have GM absorb Chrysler. That would just be the tippy top of what needs to be done.

It was not good to throw money at AIG, and in fact the entire bailout was a mistake that, in my limited opinion, would have NEVER happened if we weren't assdeep in an election.

 

While we both agree that there need to be major changes at the three companies, I don't have the confidence that the change will be there without government oversight. Alternately, I don't like the idea of the government getting involved either because I don't see the logic of one incompetent group helping another incompetent group. Plus, you don't see Starbucks begging for money. You don't see Circuit City begging for money. And while their economic impact is not as deep as that of the automotive industry, the government is setting a dangerous precedent if they move forward with this bailout.

 

If you let the market dictate the fate of the big three, it will serve as notice to the rest of the businesses in this world that they need to be self-accountable for their success. While that will be painful in the immediate future, it's necessary in re-establishing a solid corporate foundation that will help avoid this kind of idiocy in the long run, and consequently, the renewed economy will be stronger in the future.

[pBills]

It was not good to throw money at AIG, and in fact the entire bailout was a mistake that, in my limited opinion, would have NEVER happened if we weren't assdeep in an election.

 

While we both agree that there need to be major changes at the three companies, I don't have the confidence that the change will be there without government oversight. Alternately, I don't like the idea of the government getting involved either because I don't see the logic of one incompetent group helping another incompetent group. Plus, you don't see Starbucks begging for money. You don't see Circuit City begging for money. And while their economic impact is not as deep as that of the automotive industry, the government is setting a dangerous precedent if they move forward with this bailout.

 

If you let the market dictate the fate of the big three, it will serve as notice to the rest of the businesses in this world that they need to be self-accountable for their success. While that will be painful in the immediate future, it's necessary in re-establishing a solid corporate foundation that will help avoid this kind of idiocy in the long run, and consequently, the renewed economy will be stronger in the future.

 

 

Something has to be done. I am more worried about the million or so workers that will be possibly out of work.

[pBills]

From CNN in regards to the Big 3 and unions.

 

Unions - The UAW recently made significant concessions that should save GM, Ford and Chrysler a lot of money in the long run.

 

The union allowed Detroit automakers to pay newly hired workers less per hour than previously hired employees. It also agreed to take over the cost of retiree health care provided the automakers paid lump sums into an investment fund to cover the costs.

[IDBillzFan]

Something has to be done. I am more worried about the million or so workers that will be possibly out of work.

Doing "something" shouldn't automatically translate to doing "anything," and it most certainly should not include throwing money at the problem.

 

It also agreed to take over the cost of retiree health care provided the automakers paid lump sums into an investment fund to cover the costs.[/b]

Exactly how does that help the situation? All it does is delay the inevitable.

[pBills]

Doing "something" shouldn't automatically translate to doing "anything," and it most certainly should not include throwing money at the problem.

 

 

Exactly how does that help the situation? All it does is delay the inevitable.

 

 

It saves the company billions of dollars. Would you rather they do nothing. People blame the unions, but when they make concessions and do something. Not good enough.

 

Also i have always said... loan or bail out the big 3. But change has to come with the money.

[IDBillzFan]

It saves the company billions of dollars. Would you rather they do nothing.

It doesn't save them anything because it requires the automakers to cover the expense that the UAW is picking up. It's robbing Peter to pay Paul. Again, delaying the inevitable.

[SDS]

The union allowed Detroit automakers to pay newly hired workers less per hour than previously hired employees.

 

 

Did they also finally allow a reduction in lobotomy and coal furnace purchasing benefits?

 

An industry set to shed 100,000s of workers gives into paying "newly hired" workers less. Well, if that doesn't fix it - nothing will!

[pBills]

Did they also finally allow a reduction in lobotomy and coal furnace purchasing benefits?

 

An industry set to shed 100,000s of workers gives into paying "newly hired" workers less. Well, if that doesn't fix it - nothing will!

 

 

 

At least the union is making an effort... cutting salaries and health care

[pBills]

It doesn't save them anything because it requires the automakers to cover the expense that the UAW is picking up. It's robbing Peter to pay Paul. Again, delaying the inevitable.

 

 

I believe those benefits covered by the UAW will funded by their own investments.

[SDS]

At least the union is making an effort... cutting salaries and health care

 

So, if the CEO gives up his parking spot and only agrees to use the private jet for really, really important meetings - will you say management is making an effort too?

[pBills]

what a dumb post