Big Auto Wants $50B

[erynthered]

I'm sure UAW is sitting there thinking: Y'know, we dumped a ton of cash, time and effort into the Obama campaign. It's his turn to return the favor. I'd be particularly interested to see how much they give to Nancy Pelosi given the incessant begging and pleading she's doing on behalf of the Big 3.

 

Here's 3 million they spent.

[IDBillzFan]

Here's 3 million they spent.

I think that's what the left would call "a drop in the bucket."

[erynthered]

I think that's what the left would call "a drop in the bucket."

 

 

True. Though since he changed his mind on public campaign funds, he wont have to show who gave him any money. An audit is highly unlikely.

 

I hear Bin Laden is still waiting for his receipt.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Outsourcing makes sense on more than an economic scale. US schools are graduating more college students than ever--and yet fewer science and engineers than in the past. That trend is killing tech companies. In the meantime, Russia, China, and India are graduating more scientists and engineers than ever before.

 

Outsourcing in the sciences isn't all about $$; it's about resources. The intellectual fuel for tomorrow's technologic advances is overseas. Companies like Intel and HP recognize this. I don't fault them one bit.

 

On a side note:

 

We just had a few engineers come look at the heap of a wreck of infrastructure I call employment. The place where I work is almost 50 years old and they were oohing and aahing when we showed them how we operate... Two engineers (Corps guys) were Asian and one was Eastern European, led by an American project manager... The lock they were looking to get ideas for wasn't doing so well and they wanted to see how our rack and gear operating machinery is accomplished.

 

What happened to American engineering?... We are running pre-WWII type hyrdaulic equipment since the place was built on relatively short dime (6 million bucks) back in 1960.

 

And they are oohing and aahing at the stuff we still use?... Frankly, as much as we use the stuff (almost 500-2,000 lockages) a month... The stuff has been going strong for almost 50 years!

 

The one Asian engineer commented on how America still has the best inland waterway system... WTF was that supposed to mean? Other countries must really be in the sh*tter?

[finknottle]

Outsourcing makes sense on more than an economic scale. US schools are graduating more college students than ever--and yet fewer science and engineers than in the past. That trend is killing tech companies. In the meantime, Russia, China, and India are graduating more scientists and engineers than ever before.

 

Outsourcing in the sciences isn't all about $$; it's about resources. The intellectual fuel for tomorrow's technologic advances is overseas. Companies like Intel and HP recognize this. I don't fault them one bit.

 

I think the problem is deeper than just outsourcing workers. Our society thinks lawyers and MBA's should run government and industry. How many members of congress have scientific or technical backgrounds? In a technology-oriented world, are these the guys we want making decisions about climate change, star wars, nuclear power, the internet, the airwaves, copyright in the digital age, cyberwarfare and infrastructure defense, cloning and stem cell research... And we wonder why they all have lobbyists whispering in their ears - they would have no ability to form an opinion otherwise. Industry is not much better. I've seen many technical companies, usually mid-sized and above, which are led by technically illiterate CEO's. It's embarrassing.

 

Of the countries you cited, the President of China has a degree in Hydraulic Engineering and the Premier has a postgraduate degree in Geological Engineering. The President of India was an Aeronautical Engineer Ph.D who led their missile and space programs and made India's emergance as an information technology superpower his priority. The Prime Minister is an Economics Ph.D. This all translates into a healthy respect for science within those countries, and among their decision makers. It's no coincidence that both countries have been making technological leaps along with their economic ones.

 

Russia, on the other hand, looks like the US. President Putin and Prime Minister Medvedev are both lawyers. I would argue that Russia also suffers from the same malady as the US: it is clear to anyone growing up there that science and engineering are not the paths to getting ahead, it is law school and the business world, an orgy of murky networking and influence peddling. I think it is no accident that despite a well-educated workforce, Russia's prospects for technological innovation and leadership in the century ahead looks dismal.

[RLflutie7]

I think the problem is deeper than just outsourcing workers. Our society thinks lawyers and MBA's should run government and industry. How many members of congress have scientific or technical backgrounds? In a technology-oriented world, are these the guys we want making decisions about climate change, star wars, nuclear power, the internet, the airwaves, copyright in the digital age, cyberwarfare and infrastructure defense, cloning and stem cell research... And we wonder why they all have lobbyists whispering in their ears - they would have no ability to form an opinion otherwise. Industry is not much better. I've seen many technical companies, usually mid-sized and above, which are led by technically illiterate CEO's. It's embarrassing.

 

Of the countries you cited, the President of China has a degree in Hydraulic Engineering and the Premier has a postgraduate degree in Geological Engineering. The President of India was an Aeronautical Engineer Ph.D who led their missile and space programs and made India's emergance as an information technology superpower his priority. The Prime Minister is an Economics Ph.D. This all translates into a healthy respect for science within those countries, and among their decision makers. It's no coincidence that both countries have been making technological leaps along with their economic ones.

 

Russia, on the other hand, looks like the US. President Putin and Prime Minister Medvedev are both lawyers. I would argue that Russia also suffers from the same malady as the US: it is clear to anyone growing up there that science and engineering are not the paths to getting ahead, it is law school and the business world, an orgy of murky networking and influence peddling. I think it is no accident that despite a well-educated workforce, Russia's prospects for technological innovation and leadership in the century ahead looks dismal.

 

 

 

Bingo, Bingo, Bingo. I knew someone would say it better then me.

 

That is why we have so many problems. It's the lack of leadership in our country. Why have a bunch of lawyers and MBA's running things.

 

Notice how the bailout suddenly changed and the guy in charge was called a "chump" by a congressman. They're mad because, they were misled. We're bailing out Wall Street and not homeowners. And I heard other companies that don't need the money are trying to get it also and they'll get it and do as they please.

 

The sad part is, the general public knew from the get go and now we are stuck. Paulson is a Golman Sachs a-hole so it doesn't surprise me about what's happening. And he'll sit there and lie to the press about it.

[RLflutie7]

How's this for a proposal that will never fly:

 

We all agree that the automakers are doomed - they shown no ability to turn things around long-term over the past two decades. The problem is that they are too large to fail - the reverberations throughout the economy will be too big.

 

So instead wasting our intellectual energy on conditions like limits on executive pay, make a condition of their receiving the loans that they reduce their workforce at least 7% a year over the next 10 years. What the heck - call it a grant, or better yet a tax credit. Give them the money not under the illusion that they are going to turn things around, but so that they can have a soft landing. That way, when they come back for more money next time, maybe they will be small enough and the rest of the economy de-linkeded enough that we can finally let go.

 

They've already done that haven't they? Many UAW workers have taken buyouts. Which means, they give up their benefits. I did a google and 40,000 took the buyouts. Basically, no such thing as retirement in the future and that may be a good thing.

 

Probably a lot more on the way. I know I would take the 150K they were offered.

[Buftex]

I just don't see how this will not be something that keeps happening over and over. The trucks won't sell for value and American cars can't compete right now with Toytoa, Honda and the rest. Toyota is living resonably well with the idea that you don't sell a person one car, you sell them a life time of cars. How GM, Ford and Chrysler change that I have no idea. So unless gas drops to $1.50 a gallon I don't think the car companies will be off the public tit for years.

 

And one of the battles going on inside the Democratic party is who gets the leadership position to change Detriot, John "Detroit" Dingle or Waxman. Which one of them will hold the car comapnies feet to fire more?

 

 

The oil industry should bail out the auto industry...

[Nanker]

The gambling industry is failing. They're going to need a bailout too perhaps.

I hear that newspapers are also reeling. Shouldn't the government show them some love too?

[molson_golden2002]

On a side note:

 

We just had a few engineers come look at the heap of a wreck of infrastructure I call employment. The place where I work is almost 50 years old and they were oohing and aahing when we showed them how we operate... Two engineers (Corps guys) were Asian and one was Eastern European, led by an American project manager... The lock they were looking to get ideas for wasn't doing so well and they wanted to see how our rack and gear operating machinery is accomplished.

 

What happened to American engineering?... We are running pre-WWII type hyrdaulic equipment since the place was built on relatively short dime (6 million bucks) back in 1960.

 

And they are oohing and aahing at the stuff we still use?... Frankly, as much as we use the stuff (almost 500-2,000 lockages) a month... The stuff has been going strong for almost 50 years!

 

The one Asian engineer commented on how America still has the best inland waterway system... WTF was that supposed to mean? Other countries must really be in the sh*tter?

 

Thanks, that was interesting. I can't remember the last time I saw a ship out on Lake Erie, though.

[meazza]

http://www.economist.com/daily/kallery/dis...e=features_box4

 

A picture is worth a thousand words.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Thanks, that was interesting. I can't remember the last time I saw a ship out on Lake Erie, though.

 

They have to be there (on Lake Erie) sometime or another during the season... Not as much as years ago, the "salties" still make into the Chicago International Port (terminus of the SeaWay) about 3000 feet from where I work. You probably don't see any on the eastern tip near BFLO because BFLO is a "dead end"... They are heading out of Port Colborne and heading AWAY from BFLO.

 

Most tonnage now comes through New Orleans... And from there, who knows... We just had a tows heading from Whiting, Indiana (on the lake) to Tulsa, OK... That is Chicago to Oklahoma via water...

 

I have know doubt, that in the near future we will be seeing containers making its way on the inland.

[John Adams]

Thanks, that was interesting. I can't remember the last time I saw a ship out on Lake Erie, though.

 

I saw them every day when I was on Erie last Summer.

[ExiledInIllinois]

I saw them every day when I was on Erie last Summer.

 

Exactly, not the numbers that used to be... But, they are there... Everything is so streamlined... What part of the basin were you in? I take more west (west of Erie, PA)?

[molson_golden2002]

They have to be there (on Lake Erie) sometime or another during the season... Not as much as years ago, the "salties" still make into the Chicago International Port (terminus of the SeaWay) about 3000 feet from where I work. You probably don't see any on the eastern tip near BFLO because BFLO is a "dead end"... They are heading out of Port Colborne and heading AWAY from BFLO.

 

Most tonnage now comes through New Orleans... And from there, who knows... We just had a tows heading from Whiting, Indiana (on the lake) to Tulsa, OK... That is Chicago to Oklahoma via water...

 

I have know doubt, that in the near future we will be seeing containers making its way on the inland.

That vile Welland Canal! Ya, that bypassed us pretty good. A few summers ago I took a tour of Buffalo outer and inner harbor. The outer harbor was nice, going by the Peace Bridge and seeing the open water and all, but then we started up the Buffalo River to a land that looked like the Planet of the Apes. The infrastructure is still inside the habor but a real "dead zone" gets reached way back inthere where the old grain elevators are. The area is completely covered in undergrowth and the elevators are just sitting there unused and looking like monuments of a dead civilization sticking out of the ground. Really bizarr to see that. As I remember, our tour guide said that only one commercial boat *ship* had come into Buffalo harbor that year, if I remember right. This had been one of the busiest ports in the world at one time.

[ExiledInIllinois]

That vile Welland Canal! Ya, that bypassed us pretty good. A few summers ago I took a tour of Buffalo outer and inner harbor. The outer harbor was nice, going by the Peace Bridge and seeing the open water and all, but then we started up the Buffalo River to a land that looked like the Planet of the Apes. The infrastructure is still inside the habor but a real "dead zone" gets reached way back inthere where the old grain elevators are. The area is completely covered in undergrowth and the elevators are just sitting there unused and looking like monuments of a dead civilization sticking out of the ground. Really bizarr to see that. As I remember, our tour guide said that only one commercial boat *ship* had come into Buffalo harbor that year, if I remember right. This had been one of the busiest ports in the world at one time.

 

But, it (the BFLO River) eventually goes nowhere.

 

One can say the canal (Erie)... Yes, the canal made BFLO, just as the Illinois and Michigan made Chicago... Yet, during the early years of the canal building craze... Canals were ditches that were usually dug next to existing rivers... There rivers were to swift to "canalize" and channelize them (along with other engineering hurdles of the time) like they are today... As soon as the modern powered vessel became a reality... Things changed... Here, in Illinois... The Illinois river was then connected to and used as a better slack water system (the Illinois and Michigan Canal became defunct)... This created the need for less locks and other systems (feeder canals) to maintain the whole thing... Same thing with canalizing the Upper MS. The advent of the internal combustion engine! The Erie Canal is just that... History and a recreationist's playground.

 

Even know everything on the Lakes is down... Think how much different the Buffalo River would look if say it connected with the Mississippi... It would exactly look it does here in Chicago.

 

It is all about geography... Location, location, location. One canal made BFLO as a break-in-bulk center... But, who wants to break-in-bulk if you don't need to? That is just more work. And another canal (Welland) bypassed BFLO. Now with containers and more intermodal services things are even more streamlined... Who wants to make a louie up to BFLO? A container can be loaded in Eastern Europe and the next time it is off-loaded is in Chicago, New Orleans, New York, Miami, etc.., etc... Going to anywhere in the country cheapply by water... Then to rail or truck.

 

IMO, BFLO is in a real major problem commericially... The things that made other major cities great, are still in play... Not good old BFLO.

 

But, really gotta go... I will now have to skip my noon break, I am taking too much time in the morning... Hope things start!

[finknottle]

It is all about geography... Location, location, location. One canal made BFLO as a break-in-bulk center... But, who wants to break-in-bulk if you don't need to? That is just more work. And another canal (Welland) bypassed BFLO. Now with containers and more intermodal services things are even more streamlined... Who wants to make a louie up to BFLO? A container can be loaded in Eastern Europe and the next time it is off-loaded is in Chicago, New Orleans, New York, Miami, etc.., etc... Going to anywhere in the country cheapply by water... Then to rail or truck.

 

IMO, BFLO is in a real major problem commericially... The things that made other major cities great, are still in play... Not good old BFLO.

 

But, really gotta go... I will now have to skip my noon break, I am taking too much time in the morning... Hope things start!

 

This was true 40 years ago, but it's the 21st century now. All you need is an educated workforce and a power grid. Buffalo has those. There should be software and biotech companies popping out left and right, like Houston or NoVa or Silicon Valley.

 

Ok - you need one more thing: a business-friendly climate and tax policy. And not just friendly to Big Business - you need a government that recognizes that small business startups are the engines for creating jobs and the companies of the future. WNY doesn't have that, they are locked in the GM & Unions mindest.

[John Adams]

Exactly, not the numbers that used to be... But, they are there... Everything is so streamlined... What part of the basin were you in? I take more west (west of Erie, PA)?

 

East of Erie closer to Port Colborne. I have been going there my entire life. Doesn't seem to be more or less traffic. If it's less, it's not noticeable to me (not that I've ever counted).

[John Adams]

Some good facts in this piece.

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122688631448632421.html

 

Excerpt.

 

Consider the costs of tackling GM's problems with some kind of bailout plan. After 42 years of eroding U.S. market share (from 53% to 20%) and countless announcements of "change," GM still has eight U.S. brands (Cadillac, Saab, Buick, Pontiac, GMC, Saturn, Chevrolet and Hummer). As for its more successful competitors, Toyota (19% market share) has three, and Honda (11%) has two.

 

GM has about 7,000 dealers. Toyota has fewer than 1,500. Honda has about 1,000. These fewer and larger dealers are better able to advertise, stock and service the cars they sell. GM knows it needs fewer brands and dealers, but the dealers are protected from termination by state laws. This makes eliminating them and the brands they sell very expensive. It would cost GM billions of dollars and many years to reduce the number of dealers it has to a number near Toyota's.

 

Foreign-owned manufacturers who build cars with American workers pay wages similar to GM's. But their expenses for benefits are a fraction of GM's. GM is contractually required to support thousands of workers in the UAW's "Jobs Bank" program, which guarantees nearly full wages and benefits for workers who lose their jobs due to automation or plant closure. It supports more retirees than current workers. It owns or leases enormous amounts of property for facilities it's not using and probably will never use again, and is obliged to support revenue bonds for municipalities that issued them to build these facilities. It has other contractual obligations such as health coverage for union retirees. All of these commitments drain its cash every month. Moreover, GM supports myriad suppliers and supports a huge infrastructure of firms and localities that depend on it. Many of them have contractual claims; they all have moral claims. They all want GM to be more or less what it is.

 

And therein lies the problem: The cost of terminating dealers is only a fraction of what it would cost to rebuild GM to become a company sized and marketed appropriately for its market share.

[finknottle]

Excerpt.

 

Good distillation.