Big Auto Wants $50B

[erynthered]

I was just listening to Larry Sabato on MSNBC and he was stating that we should not bailout the Big 3. We should invest money in all these little car companies springing up around the US that are either building or modifying old cars to burn alternative fuels often getting over 50 mpg. There are number in MA as well. We have a veg oil/diesel with a conversion kit out of CA... called Lovecraft in an old '85 Mercedes Station Wagon as a third car experiment. So far so good.

 

But my version is the tip of the iceberg. We had a valedictorian at UMass going off the do computer research for software into systems that managed alternative fuel injectors and burn rates. He got his degree in chemical engineering and computer science. He wants to start his own car company. Pretty neat stuff.

 

I say bite the bullet and screw the car companies. Buy out the pensions, cut the health care benefits and let the companies sink or swim on their own merit.... Meanwhile invest in the a new generation of car builders and the real ingenuity and creativity the powers America.

 

 

I agree. I spent over 25 years in the car business. Went to GMI, when my family owned a dealership. The greed of the companys and the unions have put them in the position that they're in. I'm tired of bail outs. They need to drop at least half their name plates and shut some plants down. Maybe even split the company up and auction brands off.

[/dev/null]

let the companies sink or swim on their own merit.... Meanwhile invest in the a new generation of car builders and the real ingenuity and creativity the powers America.

 

What you just described is normal operation of a free market system

 

And by "normal operation" I mean no 50B bailouts or government intervention to prop up somebody that is "too big to fail"

[erynthered]

Interesting OP/Ed from the WSJ on the auto industry's mess. Its a good read, with some great ideas.

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122628230122212449.html

[finknottle]

How's this for a proposal that will never fly:

 

We all agree that the automakers are doomed - they shown no ability to turn things around long-term over the past two decades. The problem is that they are too large to fail - the reverberations throughout the economy will be too big.

 

So instead wasting our intellectual energy on conditions like limits on executive pay, make a condition of their receiving the loans that they reduce their workforce at least 7% a year over the next 10 years. What the heck - call it a grant, or better yet a tax credit. Give them the money not under the illusion that they are going to turn things around, but so that they can have a soft landing. That way, when they come back for more money next time, maybe they will be small enough and the rest of the economy de-linkeded enough that we can finally let go.

[molson_golden2002]

Shifting the big burden to everyone else's shoulders

Seems to have worked for Toyota and Honda

[Kevbeau]

I was just listening to Larry Sabato on MSNBC and he was stating that we should not bailout the Big 3. We should invest money in all these little car companies springing up around the US that are either building or modifying old cars to burn alternative fuels often getting over 50 mpg. There are number in MA as well. We have a veg oil/diesel with a conversion kit out of CA... called Lovecraft in an old '85 Mercedes Station Wagon as a third car experiment. So far so good.

 

But my version is the tip of the iceberg. We had a valedictorian at UMass going off the do computer research for software into systems that managed alternative fuel injectors and burn rates. He got his degree in chemical engineering and computer science. He wants to start his own car company. Pretty neat stuff.

 

I say bite the bullet and screw the car companies. Buy out the pensions, cut the health care benefits and let the companies sink or swim on their own merit.... Meanwhile invest in the a new generation of car builders and the real ingenuity and creativity the powers America.

 

Friend recently converted his F-250 to run off of vegetable oil (The Veg-O-Matic 250). Bought a conversion kit (I think he said it was 4K) and has deals worked out with local retaraunts to take their used oil off their hands. He has to put it through a centrifuge first to clean it out and of course has a big spare tank in the bed of his truck, but the thing runs as good as it did on gasoline. You also get the added benefit that it smells like General Tso's chicken.

[molson_golden2002]

How's this for a proposal that will never fly:

 

We all agree that the automakers are doomed - they shown no ability to turn things around long-term over the past two decades. The problem is that they are too large to fail - the reverberations throughout the economy will be too big.

 

So instead wasting our intellectual energy on conditions like limits on executive pay, make a condition of their receiving the loans that they reduce their workforce at least 7% a year over the next 10 years. What the heck - call it a grant, or better yet a tax credit. Give them the money not under the illusion that they are going to turn things around, but so that they can have a soft landing. That way, when they come back for more money next time, maybe they will be small enough and the rest of the economy de-linkeded enough that we can finally let go.

If we bombed the factories with B-52's it might be better. They would have to start all over again which would be a good thing. This throwing money at them all the time will not solve anything

[Boomer860]

No bailout. The company greed and mismangement and union greed brought this on. Down size and lay off. Reorganize.

[John Adams]

One of the best reasons why Detroit automakers should not receive a bailout can be found in a General Motors "Jobs Bank" program that, bizarrely, pays employees not to work.

 

A beneficiary of that program was someone named Jerry Mellon, who worked for GM until his division merged with another in 2000 and he was no longer needed. Except for a brief period in 2001, Mellon received his full salary for not working, which reached $64,500 a year by 2006. Include benefits, and the annual cost to GM exceeds $100,000.

 

To earn his pay, Mellon was given the formidable task of showing up in a windowless shed, sitting at a table, and doing nothing for eight hours a day for six years, according to a profile in the Wall Street Journal. Jobs Bank employees have the option of attending classes teaching such important manufacturing skills as dealing blackjack and poker. Mellon spent part of his time reading Reader's Digest, learning how to play Trivial Pursuit, napping on a makeshift bed of chairs pushed together, or simply staring at the wall for hours at a time.

 

During those six years, Toyota surpassed GM as the world's largest car manufacturer, thanks to innovations like the fuel-sipping Prius.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/12/...in4595068.shtml

 

What else needs to be said. Lehman failed and it hurt. It might be time to let Detroit go too. This little plague we're in may be as good of a time as any to stop keeping crappy things on life support.

[IDBillzFan]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/12/...in4595068.shtml

 

What else needs to be said. Lehman failed and it hurt. It might be time to let Detroit go too. This little plague we're in may be as good of a time as any to stop keeping crappy things on life support.

Amen.

[RLflutie7]

Of course it's dead

 

Everybody in America has a right to a college education

 

Why would somebody with a college education stoop to the peon level of accepting a manufacturing job?

 

 

I have a college degree and I got laid off in July from a factory job I had. My job required heavy lifting and I lost 25 pounds working that job. And I got paid $8.00 to start. Non union.

 

The company is expecting to file for bankruptcy in a few days. They missed a debt payment.

 

It's not labor that's the problem. This was a non-union shop and they blamed the blue collar worker for all the problems. (Low quality, slow workers they said).

 

The real problem is they didn't have anyone who knew what the bleep was going on. They had so much turnover, the business didn't run at peak output.

 

We never hit production numbers. It was a joke.

[John Adams]

I have a college degree and I got laid off in July from a factory job I had. My job required heavy lifting and I lost 25 pounds working that job. And I got paid $8.00 to start. Non union.

 

What degree did you get?

[ExiledInIllinois]

How's this for a proposal that will never fly:

 

We all agree that the automakers are doomed - they shown no ability to turn things around long-term over the past two decades. The problem is that they are too large to fail - the reverberations throughout the economy will be too big.

 

So instead wasting our intellectual energy on conditions like limits on executive pay, make a condition of their receiving the loans that they reduce their workforce at least 7% a year over the next 10 years. What the heck - call it a grant, or better yet a tax credit. Give them the money not under the illusion that they are going to turn things around, but so that they can have a soft landing. That way, when they come back for more money next time, maybe they will be small enough and the rest of the economy de-linkeded enough that we can finally let go.

 

Kinda like the oil industry getting 5 bucks a gallon for fuel at one time?... Those nice profits will "soften the landing" when we become gasoline freer...

[ExiledInIllinois]

What degree did you get?

 

I am almost in the same boat:

 

BA (PS and History), 1990 UB...

 

I am also in a hourly\wage grade job career that covers everything from in-house IT work to welding to heavy equipment/vessel operations... Mainly running the lock and dam 24/7/365... Basically, everything that it takes to keep this 25 or so acre site running... Just built a picnic table this morning! Oh, and as SD likes to point out: WeedWhacking in the summer and snow removal in the winter!

 

But... I make way more and hour... A nice hourly wage, especially when you factor in shift differential, weekend, holiday, and OT rate!

 

People ask, WTF are you doing here? Do they really want to know that I am bugging all you guys at times?...

 

[RLflutie7]

What degree did you get?

 

 

I've got a BA in communications. And I'd put that degree up against any business degree or marketing or whatever. It's the industry that you're in that determines your fate. Not the degree.

 

 

There are three people in management at the company that went to the same school I did. And their jobs are as good as gone. I was encouraged to apply for other jobs, but I didn't because you could see the hand writing on the wall. The CEO came and said the company was going through an economic depression along with the rest of the economy. About a month later, boom, I was gone.

 

I did a google on the company yesterday and they have a deadline for Nov. 13th. They're not going to make it. I feel sorry for the people that worked there for over 20 years, but they're toast.

 

I'm sure management might get some sort of buy out, but even that's not likely. The company sucks and they're not going to give anyone anything.

 

 

The biggest thing that bothered me, is no one seemed to realize what was going on. People seemed shocked when they were laid off. They warned us over and over that things were not going well.

[SDS]

Blogger Mark Perry: Total compensation per hour for the big-three carmakers is $73.20. That’s a 52 percent differential from Toyota’s (Detroit South) $48 compensation (wages + health and retirement benefits). In fact, the oversized UAW-driven pay package for Detroit is 132 percent higher than that of the entire manufacturing sector of the U.S., which comes in at $31.59.

 

I don't know if it is accurate, but if it is... ouch. Perhaps the UAW can get together with steel workers and share war stories of sticking it to "the man"...

[John Adams]

I've got a BA in communications. And I'd put that degree up against any business degree or marketing or whatever. It's the industry that you're in that determines your fate. Not the degree.

 

OK. BA in communications means nothing. Nor does marketing, Poly-Sci, business, etc. You might as well have started working out of high school and gotten the degree at night (because you need the degree to open certain doors, even though it's useless). Those degrees give you sh-- in the real world. I wouldn't hire a BA Communications person out of school at more than $8 an hour either unless they had a whole boatload of other work experience. BA Communications=wipe my ass degree=you learned nothing for 4 years. Deny it if you want but you know it's true.

 

My advice: go into auto mechanics in blue collar field (going to be a growth industry because people are not going to buy a new car every 3 years for a while) or go back to school and get a useful degree like engineering. I'm serious about auto mechanics too--that is a good job. I would be considering it if I wasn't doing what I'm doing. Engineering has more upside.

 

Another option: law enforcement (if you have the mettle for it). Good police are hard to find.

[pBills]

I have a college degree and I got laid off in July from a factory job I had. My job required heavy lifting and I lost 25 pounds working that job. And I got paid $8.00 to start. Non union.

 

The company is expecting to file for bankruptcy in a few days. They missed a debt payment.

 

It's not labor that's the problem. This was a non-union shop and they blamed the blue collar worker for all the problems. (Low quality, slow workers they said).

 

The real problem is they didn't have anyone who knew what the bleep was going on. They had so much turnover, the business didn't run at peak output.

 

We never hit production numbers. It was a joke.

 

 

 

Piss poor management and design is a huge problem. Although, I must say I do find it funny that people just want to or are satisfied to let GM, Ford or Chrysler just go bankrupt. Yet, AIG keeps getting more money even after they pissed through a ton on a retreat. To hell with those million workers.

[/dev/null]

Piss poor management and design is a huge problem. Although, I must say I do find it funny that people just want to or are satisfied to let GM, Ford or Chrysler just go bankrupt. Yet, AIG keeps getting more money even after they pissed through a ton on a retreat. To hell with those million workers.

Some of us were content to let AIG go bankrupt

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Piss poor management and design is a huge problem. Although, I must say I do find it funny that people just want to or are satisfied to let GM, Ford or Chrysler just go bankrupt. Yet, AIG keeps getting more money even after they pissed through a ton on a retreat. To hell with those million workers.

We should clip AIG off at the nuts, too. Let the markets work. They are efficient. Free markets aren't truly free without the downside of failure.