Let 11/05/08 be known as the day...

[The Dean]

One guy makes it and everything is ok now?

 

 

Plain ignorance, is what it is.

 

Now, Obama should serve as inspiration to many young Black people. The accepted-as-fact saying that "a Black man can never be elected President of the USA" is not longer valid. There are people who use race as a crutch, and an excuse. With luck, there will be a day that no longer works, as it will be clear that our society is free of intense systematic racism...but we are nowhere near that point, in the USA.

 

Consider the election of Obama as a HUGE milestone in the quest for equality among the races. That quest has a long way to go, though.

[Chef Jim]

One guy makes it and everything is ok now?

 

Explaint to me in detail what is holding black people down from the successes that are out there. One guy makes is. Yes, one guy made it as President. But what about all the other sucessful black CEOs, Professors, Leaders, Professionals out there. How did they overcome the oppression that you feel the black man is under? And once again, what is this oppression?

[Fan in San Diego]

Plain ignorance, is what it is.

 

Now, Obama should serve as inspiration to many young Black people. The accepted-as-fact saying that "a Black man can never be elected President of the USA" is not longer valid. There are people who use race as a crutch, and an excuse. With luck, there will be a day that no longer works, as it will be clear that our society is free of intense systematic racism...but we are nowhere near that point, in the USA.

 

Consider the election of Obama as a HUGE milestone in the quest for equality among the races. That quest has a long way to go, though.

 

There may be the odd !@#$ who is a racist, but the system is color blind Dean. No more excuses. I'll take you in some black neighborhoods where some residents wont like white people. That doesn't create an excuse for white people not to succeed. Same thing goes for black people, screw the odd racist, everyone can succeed in this country if you put your mind to it.

[mead107]

[thebug]

Explaint to me in detail what is holding black people down from the successes that are out there. One guy makes is. Yes, one guy made it as President. But what about all the other sucessful black CEOs, Professors, Leaders, Professionals out there. How did they overcome the oppression that you feel the black man is under? And once again, what is this oppression?

 

 

Do I have a time limit? and how many words must this detailed essay be? Also what percentage of my final mark will this count for?

[IDBillzFan]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/07102008/news/..._job_119244.htm

Is it me, or is there something kind of creepy watching a black man whisper to another black man about how he'd like to cut off the nuts of another black man.

 

Consider the election of Obama as a HUGE milestone in the quest for equality among the races. That quest has a long way to go, though.

 

I think the biggest surprise to me in this entire election is that Obama won North Carolina. It's been a while since I lived there, but it still boggles the mind.

[Chef Jim]

Do I have a time limit? and how many words must this detailed essay be? Also what percentage of my final mark will this count for?

 

Yeah, I didn't think so.

[thebug]

Yeah, I didn't think so.

 

 

Hey, If I have to explain it to you, I don't want to discuss it with you.

[The Dean]

Explaint to me in detail what is holding black people down from the successes that are out there. One guy makes is. Yes, one guy made it as President. But what about all the other sucessful black CEOs, Professors, Leaders, Professionals out there. How did they overcome the oppression that you feel the black man is under? And once again, what is this oppression?

 

 

There may be the odd !@#$ who is a racist, but the system is color blind Dean. No more excuses. I'll take you in some black neighborhoods where some residents wont like white people. That doesn't create an excuse for white people not to succeed. Same thing goes for black people, screw the odd racist, everyone can succeed in this country if you put your mind to it.

 

 

Not sure I am up to this tonight, and quite frankly, fairly certain you guys aren't worth the effort...but I will attempt to give you the Reader's Digest version of what would be fairly obvious, if you took the time and effort to see things from a different point of view.

 

Let's start with SD's assertion that there are Black racists in neighborhoods, yet that doesn't hold White people back.

 

Well, my first reaction is: it certainly would if White people wanted to work, live and find success in an overwhelmingly Black neighborhood. Put the average White guy in the middle of Compton and see how well he manages to negotiate the streets. Are there many White leaders of predominately Black gangs? In fact, racism is so predominant and obvious among many Black people, in predominantly Black neighborhoods, it works as a very good analogy of racism in mainstream White society, as it is writ rather large.

 

No matter how much that White guy knows about organization, the economics of drug dealing and the like, it is extremely unlikely he will rise to the higher rankings of a Black gang. Now, that would be a problem if there were many White people clamoring to be members and leaders of Black gangs. It that was a major goal for many White people, it would be easy to understand how racism would serve as a very big indifference to their success in this venture.

 

Why would their race hinder their ability to rise to the top of a Black gang? Well, it involves far more than hard work, and what you know. First of all, it helps a LOT if you are born in the hood, know the streets, know the language and short hand used by those controlling the gangs. It definitely helps if you are related to other gang members, and particularly those higher up in the gang's organization. The advantage you get from living the gang life, from the time you are a small child, is invaluable when it comes to being a gang leader. Do you go to the clubs where gang members hang out? (Can you even get in them? Do you know where they are?)

 

Where you grew up, who your father/mother/grandparents are and who they know, where you went to school (where your parents went to school), what clubs your family belongs to (is leaders of), your mentors and influences growing up...all of these make a difference in how likely you are to be able to achieve the goals you may have in your life. Most of those, you have very little (if any) control of, as a child or even a young teen. Is it possible to get beyond disadvantages, but the fact that you have to get by them makes them real disadvantages. If race is component in any of these hardships, that represents the systematic racism that exists in our society.

 

Now, Barack Obama made it to President. It is important to note that his background was not typical of an African American raised in the USA. He had some advantages the majority of Black children won't see. But, Bush had advantages that most of us never see...the question is, is race involved in the distribution of these advantages in our society. I'll save you the suspense...the answer is a resounding "YES".

 

As long as good schools have a "legacy" policy (giving the children of alumni a better chance of entrance than the average applicant), CEOs of companies hire their sons and daughters, people in the position to hire look to friends and family for applicants and recommendations, etc, the White and the rich will always have built-in "affirmative action", although they really don't need it. As long as business gets conducted in private clubs that have strict membership policies, and/or rely on current members to recruit the new members, there will continue to be inequalities in the system. To the degree these clubs use race as a standard, then racism is alive in the system. If they restrict by sex, then sexism is a valid issue to consider.

 

In other words, as long as the business world operates like that Black gang, (where who you know, where you grew up and your relationships to the already powerful as as important as what you know and how hard you work, for success) racism will continue to be a part of our society.

 

Bill Clinton had an office in Harlem and by all accounts is an accepted member of the hood. I don't think that means that there is no more racism in Harlem, or that any White guy who wants to, can move there and expect that, with hard work, he will be successful. Bill was President of the USA and was very popular with the Black community before trying the Harlem approach.

 

Now, I simply reject the notion that racists are few and far between. My experience is that there are many full blown racists in this word. But, straight up obvious racism isn't the biggest issue at the moment. The system, through laws and social stigma, has made it very unfashionable to be an admitted racist. It's tougher to just refuse to sell to, rent to, hire, etc Black people simply because they are Black. That is an area where a LOT of progress has been made in the past 50, or so, years. But, the racism that is inherent in the system, is far harder to identify and eliminate.

 

As more and more African Americans take advantage to the reduction in overt racism that exists and the opportunities presented by affirmative action, more and more Blacks are becoming successful in main stream society. Yes, there are black CEOs, Leaders and Professionals out there. As their ranks grow, and they start hiring their children, and looking to their family and friends for recommendations (in other words, acting like their White counterparts) then the racism in the system will decrease.

 

But, let's not pretend that we are at the point where "all things are equal", we are far from it. As recently as 15, or so, years ago a study of the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston found that lenders rejected minorities 56% more than otherwise identical Whites. That study was attacked for some coding errors, but was redone and the conclusions were upheld:

 

http://www.fanniemaefoundation.org/program...r_0402_carr.pdf

 

A more recent study found significant bias against resumes with "Black sounding names":

 

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m349..._48/ai_97873146

 

There is so much more, of course, to this topic. But, that should serve as a start.

[Chef Jim]

Not sure I am up to this tonight, and quite frankly, fairly certain you guys aren't worth the effort...but I will attempt to give you the Reader's Digest version of what would be fairly obvious, if you took the time and effort to see things from a different point of view.

 

Let's start with SD's assertion that there are Black racists in neighborhoods, yet that doesn't hold White people back.

 

Well, my first reaction is: it certainly would if White people wanted to work, live and find success in an overwhelmingly Black neighborhood. Put the average White guy in the middle of Compton and see how well he manages to negotiate the streets. Are there many White leaders of predominately Black gangs? In fact, racism is so predominant and obvious among many Black people, in predominantly Black neighborhoods, it works as a very good analogy of racism in mainstream White society, as it is writ rather large.

 

No matter how much that White guy knows about organization, the economics of drug dealing and the like, it is extremely unlikely he will rise to the higher rankings of a Black gang. Now, that would be a problem if there were many White people clamoring to be members and leaders of Black gangs. It that was a major goal for many White people, it would be easy to understand how racism would serve as a very big indifference to their success in this venture.

 

Why would their race hinder their ability to rise to the top of a Black gang? Well, it involves far more than hard work, and what you know. First of all, it helps a LOT if you are born in the hood, know the streets, know the language and short hand used by those controlling the gangs. It definitely helps if you are related to other gang members, and particularly those higher up in the gang's organization. The advantage you get from living the gang life, from the time you are a small child, is invaluable when it comes to being a gang leader. Do you go to the clubs where gang members hang out? (Can you even get in them? Do you know where they are?)

 

Where you grew up, who your father/mother/grandparents are and who they know, where you went to school (where your parents went to school), what clubs your family belongs to (is leaders of), your mentors and influences growing up...all of these make a difference in how likely you are to be able to achieve the goals you may have in your life. Most of those, you have very little (if any) control of, as a child or even a young teen. Is it possible to get beyond disadvantages, but the fact that you have to get by them makes them real disadvantages. If race is component in any of these hardships, that represents the systematic racism that exists in our society.

 

Now, Barack Obama made it to President. It is important to note that his background was not typical of an African American raised in the USA. He had some advantages the majority of Black children won't see. But, Bush had advantages that most of us never see...the question is, is race involved in the distribution of these advantages in our society. I'll save you the suspense...the answer is a resounding "YES".

 

As long as good schools have a "legacy" policy (giving the children of alumni a better chance of entrance than the average applicant), CEOs of companies hire their sons and daughters, people in the position to hire look to friends and family for applicants and recommendations, etc, the White and the rich will always have built-in "affirmative action", although they really don't need it. As long as business gets conducted in private clubs that have strict membership policies, and/or rely on current members to recruit the new members, there will continue to be inequalities in the system. To the degree these clubs use race as a standard, then racism is alive in the system. If they restrict by sex, then sexism is a valid issue to consider.

 

In other words, as long as the business world operates like that Black gang, (where who you know, where you grew up and your relationships to the already powerful as as important as what you know and how hard you work, for success) racism will continue to be a part of our society.

 

Bill Clinton had an office in Harlem and by all accounts is an accepted member of the hood. I don't think that means that there is no more racism in Harlem, or that any White guy who wants to, can move there and expect that, with hard work, he will be successful. Bill was President of the USA and was very popular with the Black community before trying the Harlem approach.

 

Now, I simply reject the notion that racists are few and far between. My experience is that there are many full blown racists in this word. But, straight up obvious racism isn't the biggest issue at the moment. The system, through laws and social stigma, has made it very unfashionable to be an admitted racist. It's tougher to just refuse to sell to, rent to, hire, etc Black people simply because they are Black. That is an area where a LOT of progress has been made in the past 50, or so, years. But, the racism that is inherent in the system, is far harder to identify and eliminate.

 

As more and more African Americans take advantage to the reduction in overt racism that exists and the opportunities presented by affirmative action, more and more Blacks are becoming successful in main stream society. Yes, there are black CEOs, Leaders and Professionals out there. As their ranks grow, and they start hiring their children, and looking to their family and friends for recommendations (in other words, acting like their White counterparts) then the racism in the system will decrease.

 

But, let's not pretend that we are at the point where "all things are equal", we are far from it. As recently as 15, or so, years ago a study of the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston found that lenders rejected minorities 56% more than otherwise identical Whites. That study was attacked for some coding errors, but was redone and the conclusions were upheld:

 

http://www.fanniemaefoundation.org/program...r_0402_carr.pdf

 

A more recent study found significant bias against resumes with "Black sounding names":

 

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m349..._48/ai_97873146

 

There is so much more, of course, to this topic. But, that should serve as a start.

 

Well it's my opinion that your white guy in a black gang is absurd. I feel very strongly that if I wanted to succeed in a black gang I could and I would. I know that because I know I could do what they would want me to do to be successful. If they wanted me to sell drugs, I would work my ass off to be the best damn drug dealer they ever had. You know why? Because that's my drive, to be the best, to have them say "damn, we never had a guy work this hard to be successful." I want to be the best at whatever I do. I don't look at my surroundings an use that as a reason to hold me back. I've hung out with black people before where I was the only white person. Now it wasn't a gang but there was no color difference, we were just a bunch of guys who had something in common. Now if I feel I could be successful with those odds against me, why should a black person feel otherwise. I think that many black people would read what you just wrote and think it was a load of crap. And if you feel that they would not let me in solely because I was white I'm pretty sure they wouldn't care. It's a business and if they see someone come along that would grow their business I doubt they'd care what color I was.

[The Dean]

Well it's my opinion that your white guy in a black gang is absurd. I feel very strongly that if I wanted to succeed in a black gang I could and I would. I know that because I know I could do what they would want me to do to be successful. If they wanted me to sell drugs, I would work my ass off to be the best damn drug dealer they ever had. You know why? Because that's my drive, to be the best, to have them say "damn, we never had a guy work this hard to be successful." I want to be the best at whatever I do. I don't look at my surroundings an use that as a reason to hold me back. I've hung out with black people before where I was the only white person. Now it wasn't a gang but there was no color difference, we were just a bunch of guys who had something in common. Now if I feel I could be successful with those odds against me, why should a black person feel otherwise. I think that many black people would read what you just wrote and think it was a load of crap. And if you feel that they would not let me in solely because I was white I'm pretty sure they wouldn't care. It's a business and if they see someone come along that would grow their business I doubt they'd care what color I was.

 

 

Never thought you were that, naive, Chef. You seemed a little more worldly than that.

 

A willingness to work and a can-do attitutde will get ANYONE to the top, gee wilickers and by golly!

 

Priceless.

[Chef Jim]

Never thought you were that, naive, Chef. You seemed a little more worldly than that.

 

A willingness to work and a can-do attitutde will get ANYONE to the top, gee wilickers and by golly!

 

Priceless.

 

So you're still a firm believer of the man keeping people down and that is the only reason they are stuck where they are?

[The Dean]

So you're still a firm believer of the man keeping people down and that is the only reason they are stuck where they are?

 

 

Heaven's no (to the bolded part). I'm not sure where you got that idea. But, it isn't black and white (see what I did right there?). It certainly isn't the only reason and for some, it is probably a crutch. But, to think there is no racism, and deny that many Black people operate from a position of relative disadvantage (compared to their White counterparts) is crazy.

 

But, since schooling, nutrition and personal/family relationships are so important in developing the aptitude, skills and opportunity necessary to succeed, many are eliminated even before they have the chance to make a choice. And, not every individual is the most competent, most motivated and most skilled. It is relatively easy (in comparison) for a slacker White kid to make his way in the world, with much higher relative success rate than his Black counterpart.

 

So, I agree that most of the barriers have been broken for the Black leaders of tomorrow. But, opportunity still comes at a higher price and requires more effort, for Blacks. Equal pay for equal work (or competence) isn't at par for women or minorities, in this country.

 

And, to be clear, racism still exists in our economic system, making it difficult, if not impossible, for some Black people to get the same things (mortgage, job, a cab) as their equally competent and motivated White counterparts. The Man still plays his part, if not as aggressively as he did in the past. But, make no mistake, The Man has an interest (or thinks he does) in keeping others down. That isn't going anywhere on its own.

 

The need is still there for our social programs that help to give the disadvantaged a leg-up, to help them jump the extra hurdles. What I think I demonstrated is, that the "haves" have this leg-up built into the system, as well.

[Chef Jim]

Ok, now were getting somewhere. Do the disadvantaged need assistance? Sure, but I feel the disadvantage is more economic than racial. Do people still discriminate based on race. Sure but I don't think it's that prevalent and because of that black people have pretty much (noticed I said pretty much) the same opportunities that I, a middle class white punk from the boonies whose parents couldn't afford college for him had. And I did pretty well. And I want black people to use this historic event to realize they can achieve anything too it's out there for them. They may just have to work a little harder than most, just like I had to. I was at a major disadvantage with my career change. I had no major college education. Had zero experience in financial planning. Zero experience in sales. I was a !@#$ing glorified cook. But after five years I was the number one partner of a $20mill company (the number one guy the year before me was black BTW ) and I'll be number one again this year. Next quarter I'll be promoted to a regional VP (the last guy promoted to that position was black BTW again). Why do I tell you this? Because I beat the odds. Not because I was white but because I got myself out of a career that would have probably lead to an early death for me. I didn't live in the ghetto, but I was well entrenched in the ghetto of careers and got out.

[BLZFAN4LIFE]

Ok, now were getting somewhere. Do the disadvantaged need assistance? Sure, but I feel the disadvantage is more economic than racial. Do people still discriminate based on race. Sure but I don't think it's that prevalent and because of that black people have pretty much (noticed I said pretty much) the same opportunities that I, a middle class white punk from the boonies whose parents couldn't afford college for him had. And I did pretty well. And I want black people to use this historic event to realize they can achieve anything too it's out there for them. They may just have to work a little harder than most, just like I had to. I was at a major disadvantage with my career change. I had no major college education. Had zero experience in financial planning. Zero experience in sales. I was a !@#$ing glorified cook. But after five years I was the number one partner of a $20mill company (the number one guy the year before me was black BTW ) and I'll be number one again this year. Next quarter I'll be promoted to a regional VP (the last guy promoted to that position was black BTW again). Why do I tell you this? Because I beat the odds. Not because I was white but because I got myself out of a career that would have probably lead to an early death for me. I didn't live in the ghetto, but I was well entrenched in the ghetto of careers and got out.

Good for you Chef! I respect a self-made man. Someone who works hard, makes good decisions, and achieves instead of making excuses and waiting for a handout.

[The Dean]

Ok, now were getting somewhere. Do the disadvantaged need assistance? Sure, but I feel the disadvantage is more economic than racial. Do people still discriminate based on race. Sure but I don't think it's that prevalent and because of that black people have pretty much (noticed I said pretty much) the same opportunities that I, a middle class white punk from the boonies whose parents couldn't afford college for him had. And I did pretty well. And I want black people to use this historic event to realize they can achieve anything too it's out there for them. They may just have to work a little harder than most, just like I had to. I was at a major disadvantage with my career change. I had no major college education. Had zero experience in financial planning. Zero experience in sales. I was a !@#$ing glorified cook. But after five years I was the number one partner of a $20mill company (the number one guy the year before me was black BTW ) and I'll be number one again this year. Next quarter I'll be promoted to a regional VP (the last guy promoted to that position was black BTW again). Why do I tell you this? Because I beat the odds. Not because I was white but because I got myself out of a career that would have probably lead to an early death for me. I didn't live in the ghetto, but I was well entrenched in the ghetto of careers and got out.

 

 

Understood. And, I think that events in the past 20 or 30 years have shown that many (most?) African Americans have those opportunities, as well. It does take extra work. (We will disagree that being White probably helped you along the line, when you were asking for jobs and/or client money.)

 

In the original post that I responded to on this topic, SD declared the end of racism in this country (or at least Blacks should STFU about it). I still strongly disagree with that assessment, and I think we have done a good job of dismissing it as a legitimate position.

 

In your rephrasing of SD's point you suggested that "blacks need to stop using it as a reason for not suceeding [sic]". While I don't totally agree with that, as I think there are still some actual instances where race stops people from succeeding, or at least makes it extremely difficult. (I didn't bother to point out that, in some neighborhoods it is hard to stay alive if you don't join a gang, but we'll leave that alone, for now.) But, I do agree that the argument that you CAN'T do something, most anything, simply because you are Black is one that is no longer very valid.

 

And, while I agree that, in the long run, Black people would be better off to not use race as an excuse (or reason) for the lack of success, or at least do so less often, I would never tell them to STFU, or discourage them from pointing out obvious instances of racism. In fact, I think the reverse is a great option. For successful African Americans to speak loudly about the problems they encountered, due to their race, and to stress the extra effort they needed to make to overcome those hurdles. This helps to highlight the problems (some that still exist) AND gives encouragement and a map for how to overcome there issues, to the Black leaders of the future. I think that many young Black kids in the inner city think that successful Black leaders were never really like them. That these Black leaders are Black in skin color, only.

 

I sincerely believe that the election of Barack Obama will serve as another needed major piece of encouragement in the Black community. And, because of his heritage, I'm counting on him to make it a special point to really light the fire of hope in the inner city, where hope has seemed so dead, for so many. Community service, mentoring programs, teaching about the special opportunities there are for African Americans and teaching how to effectively use affirmative action to grow, and develop opportunities are the kinds of things that are desperately needed. I am usually more jaded than this, and it's been a long time since I felt we had a political leader capable of some true greatness. I know Obama will not be perfect, and in order to be an effective politician, he will have to make deals that stink up the room, but if he doesn't make an overall positive impact on the core of our Nation's being, then I will be very saddened...and more than a little surprised. (Of course, there is one giant caveat: He must live long enough to make more than a symbolic impact.)

[SageAgainstTheMachine]

And the part that Obama never wants to talk about.

 

To mention Obama and Dr King in the same sentence is an insult to Mr. King.

 

Well, I don't know how you can possibly say that. We have absolutely no historical perspective on Obama as a leader, he could turn out to be one of the greatest Americans in our history.

[Tcali]

I would suggest one big reason Obama was able to connect with white voters is because he avoids any sense of the "I'm black and I'm a victim and whitey owes me" vibe that Jackson and Sharpton emit. He's not "the angry black man." He is a man that embodies Dr. King's ideal of judging a man on the content of his character. Sharpton and Jackson talked the talk but never really understood what King meant. I agree...I think both may well be obsolete.

 

PTR

plus he doesn't sound like he lives on Jefferson Ave.--nothing against the fine folks on Jefferson.....-

[Tcali]

Well, I don't know how you can possibly say that. We have absolutely no historical perspective on Obama as a leader, he could turn out to be one of the greatest Americans in our history.

so could anyone......im rooting for him though...

[Fan in San Diego]

Understood. And, I think that events in the past 20 or 30 years have shown that many (most?) African Americans have those opportunities, as well. It does take extra work. (We will disagree that being White probably helped you along the line, when you were asking for jobs and/or client money.)

 

In the original post that I responded to on this topic, SD declared the end of racism in this country (or at least Blacks should STFU about it). I still strongly disagree with that assessment, and I think we have done a good job of dismissing it as a legitimate position.

 

In your rephrasing of SD's point you suggested that "blacks need to stop using it as a reason for not suceeding [sic]". While I don't totally agree with that, as I think there are still some actual instances where race stops people from succeeding, or at least makes it extremely difficult. (I didn't bother to point out that, in some neighborhoods it is hard to stay alive if you don't join a gang, but we'll leave that alone, for now.) But, I do agree that the argument that you CAN'T do something, most anything, simply because you are Black is one that is no longer very valid.

 

And, while I agree that, in the long run, Black people would be better off to not use race as an excuse (or reason) for the lack of success, or at least do so less often, I would never tell them to STFU, or discourage them from pointing out obvious instances of racism. In fact, I think the reverse is a great option. For successful African Americans to speak loudly about the problems they encountered, due to their race, and to stress the extra effort they needed to make to overcome those hurdles. This helps to highlight the problems (some that still exist) AND gives encouragement and a map for how to overcome there issues, to the Black leaders of the future. I think that many young Black kids in the inner city think that successful Black leaders were never really like them. That these Black leaders are Black in skin color, only.

 

I sincerely believe that the election of Barack Obama will serve as another needed major piece of encouragement in the Black community. And, because of his heritage, I'm counting on him to make it a special point to really light the fire of hope in the inner city, where hope has seemed so dead, for so many. Community service, mentoring programs, teaching about the special opportunities there are for African Americans and teaching how to effectively use affirmative action to grow, and develop opportunities are the kinds of things that are desperately needed. I am usually more jaded than this, and it's been a long time since I felt we had a political leader capable of some true greatness. I know Obama will not be perfect, and in order to be an effective politician, he will have to make deals that stink up the room, but if he doesn't make an overall positive impact on the core of our Nation's being, then I will be very saddened...and more than a little surprised. (Of course, there is one giant caveat: He must live long enough to make more than a symbolic impact.)

 

Now I know who pyrite gal is? You are so full of crap and so many points I am going to dispute that it is not funny. Sheeesh, you are pathetic when it comes to a racial topic. And no, sorry, verbosity does not equate to intelligence which is pyrites and your achilles heel. I will filet and crucify you tomorrow when I can sprinkle intelligent seasonings on your retarded lack of intelligent posts. Cook ya tomorrow, fish !