John from Riverside Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 I am sorry but I am just beyond frustrated with this. Smaller OL's find ways to get yards on the ground......we have the 3rd largest line in the league......we use a FB so there is an extra blocker 30 yards? Marshawn doesnt have 1 100 yard game this season
Dawgg Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 I am sorry but I am just beyond frustrated with this. Smaller OL's find ways to get yards on the ground......we have the 3rd largest line in the league......we use a FB so there is an extra blocker 30 yards? Marshawn doesnt have 1 100 yard game this season Spending big $ doesn't substitute for drafting and developing your O-Line. The Bills are coming to this realization now. Perhaps this year, they'll take some linemen in rounds 2-4 rather than trading the picks away to move up in the draft.
rockpile Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 The thing that kills me is that it is said Trent has no open receivers because defensesare rushing three and dropping eight into pass coverage. So, the three DLs face a center, two guards, two tackles - and plug every running lane? What am I missing?
Rubes Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 Well, they rush three and they still get to the quarterback, so apparently our linemen aren't really able to block very much regardless.
cale Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 The thing that kills me is that it is said Trent has no open receivers because defensesare rushing three and dropping eight into pass coverage. So, the three DLs face a center, two guards, two tackles - and plug every running lane? What am I missing? The Bills OL needs to watch tape this week - of the Titans OL. See what a bunch of committed, full of heart not as talented but much more productive line looks like. Sean Kugler needs to earn his paycheck this week. C
deep2evans Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 Agreed. It's driving me crazy too and is clearly this team's #1 problem. It's affecting both Marshawn and Trent in a negative way and will continue to drag this team down if something is not done about it.
BillsVet Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 I am sorry but I am just beyond frustrated with this. Smaller OL's find ways to get yards on the ground......we have the 3rd largest line in the league......we use a FB so there is an extra blocker The line is not mobile enough to handle a zone scheme, nor tough enough in the center to handle bigger DT's. IMO, those two items result in a team which hasn't run the ball against anyone this season. It's strange that Jamal Williams was bottled up two weeks ago, yet Kris Jenkins destroyed the interior OL. I'm no OL coach, but strength and agility combined make for a good OLineman. Whittle, Preston, Butler, and Fowler are stop gap players who belong on the bench. Most disturbing of all, the group of Walker, Butler, Fowler, Dockery, and Peters played 15 games together in 07 and so far 5 this season. If they haven't gelled by this point, it's because some of them aren't talented enough. Give the Jets credit for motivating Jenkins to play like he did with Carolina a few seasons ago. They have the best DT in the division right now.
thewildrabbit Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 I <3 the Bills, but I couldn't agree more with most of the comments about the running game,or lack of one. Running the ball consistently will cure so many of this teams Ill's. Help set up the passing game,keeps the defense fresh by keeping them on the bench.wear down the opponent's defense,play keep away with the ball. The Jets showed the bills how it is done in the 4th qtr last game. All I can say is this is a very young team with some very talented players. it all comes down to coaching and play calling!!!! The Bills have a new OC and Line coach and it is showing big time,lets hope they can get it together before the team slip's to the bottom of the division and out of the playoffs. I think one poster on another thread stated he wanted to see the Bills run the ball 25 times,even if it meant 25 runs and zero yards. If not for anything else but to show that the bills will have some commitment to the ground game. If I'm Ralph Wilson in Detroit I'd be calling and asking some hard questions about the run game right now. They have 2 very talented RB's and and the Bills keep trying to make the 2nd year QB carry the load....makes no sense
roy875 Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 Is it possible that our O-line is too big? There has to be a point where the positives of size and weight are countered by the negatives. Likely this point is different depending on the specific player and his physical characteristics. For example: Bruce Smith was around 290lbs when he was drafted, and he eventually played around 265 lbs because he found that was his ideal balance of size/strength/speed etc. He probably wouldn't have been as successful at the higher weight. At this point I think our guys are too damn big. The RB's may not be able to find holes b/c all they see is a mass of jiggling love handles constipating the running lanes. The smaller/faster LB's and DB's seem able to beat our guys most of the time. Check it out---- on plays when we run up the gut, there is no push at all. Nobody really gets beaten, but it creates a giant pile with no way to get through. On plays with traps and pulling, our wide-loads usually run out to the corner, and have 1-3 LB's or DB's elude them to tackle Lynch while the lineman is standing there having blocked no-one. It's been going on all year.
cale Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 Is it possible that our O-line is too big? There has to be a point where the positives of size and weight are countered by the negatives. Likely this point is different depending on the specific player and his physical characteristics. For example: Bruce Smith was around 290lbs when he was drafted, and he eventually played around 265 lbs because he found that was his ideal balance of size/strength/speed etc. He probably wouldn't have been as successful at the higher weight. At this point I think our guys are too damn big. The RB's may not be able to find holes b/c all they see is a mass of jiggling love handles constipating the running lanes. The smaller/faster LB's and DB's seem able to beat our guys most of the time. Check it out---- on plays when we run up the gut, there is no push at all. Nobody really gets beaten, but it creates a giant pile with no way to get through. On plays with traps and pulling, our wide-loads usually run out to the corner, and have 1-3 LB's or DB's elude them to tackle Lynch while the lineman is standing there having blocked no-one. It's been going on all year. I don't know - maybe. But to me this is just simple physics. Big mass + momentum should be able to push smaller and lighter objects out of the way. The thing that is so frustrating is that this OL should be able to go after anyone mano el mano and simply obliterate them. Thus far they can't seem to get out of their own way.
The Big Cat Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 Not having Josh Reed these past two weeks has been murderous to all aspects of the offense. He's Trent's favorite release valve and without him, the offense has been COMPLETELY devoid of rythm and continuity.
BillsfaninFl Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 Is it possible that our O-line is too big? There has to be a point where the positives of size and weight are countered by the negatives. Likely this point is different depending on the specific player and his physical characteristics. For example: Bruce Smith was around 290lbs when he was drafted, and he eventually played around 265 lbs because he found that was his ideal balance of size/strength/speed etc. He probably wouldn't have been as successful at the higher weight. At this point I think our guys are too damn big. The RB's may not be able to find holes b/c all they see is a mass of jiggling love handles constipating the running lanes. The smaller/faster LB's and DB's seem able to beat our guys most of the time. Check it out---- on plays when we run up the gut, there is no push at all. Nobody really gets beaten, but it creates a giant pile with no way to get through. On plays with traps and pulling, our wide-loads usually run out to the corner, and have 1-3 LB's or DB's elude them to tackle Lynch while the lineman is standing there having blocked no-one. It's been going on all year. Good post: right on and with some humor. We keep hearing that our D-linemen are too small and can't get enoughj of a push. Our O-linemen are too big to keep up with fast D-linemen. The solution is obvious: switch the lines. Walker and Dockery would be in the DT rotation, and Peters - the ex-TE, ex-Pro Bowler with those "quick feet" - can play DE. If Stroud was hiking the ball, Jenkins might have been sitting on the turf for some of those plays. Please don't take the preceding seriously. On the other hand, I like what we saw from Derek Fine. He can run a rout and catch a ball. The touchdown was a "gimme," but at least he didn't drop it. Five catches later, I'd say that was a pretty good debut for the rookie.
Wayne Fontes Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 I don't know - maybe. But to me this is just simple physics. Big mass + momentum should be able to push smaller and lighter objects out of the way. The thing that is so frustrating is that this OL should be able to go after anyone mano el mano and simply obliterate them. Thus far they can't seem to get out of their own way. Momentum is a function of velocity and mass. So if you're fat and move like ooze, its tough to build momentum.
San-O Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 Spending big $ doesn't substitute for drafting and developing your O-Line. The Bills are coming to this realization now. Perhaps this year, they'll take some linemen in rounds 2-4 rather than trading the picks away to move up in the draft. That brings up another problem, when was the last time this scouting/personnel dept. drafted a good O-lineman. This is basically the staff that has been in place for nearly a decade I believe. What's going to change with them?
cale Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 That brings up another problem, when was the last time this scouting/personnel dept. drafted a goodO-lineman. This is basically the staff that has been in place for nearly a decade I believe. What's going to change with them? I say we steal AJ Smith's filing cabinet come draft time. Who's with me?
cale Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 Momentum is a function of velocity and mass. So if you're fat and move like ooze, its tough to build momentum. I hear ya...
Pyrite Gal Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 Spending big $ doesn't substitute for drafting and developing your O-Line. The Bills are coming to this realization now. Perhaps this year, they'll take some linemen in rounds 2-4 rather than trading the picks away to move up in the draft. While drafting an developing talent on the OL as Indy had done would be a preferable alternative to building an OL through FA, if if one has a goal to make the playoffs in 08, 09 or likely even by 2010, drafting and developing a solid OL is not the method the Bills should pursue now (or likely should have began to pursue prior to the 06 draft when Marv took over as GM) for the timing of the goals of this team and the other critical needs this team had (and have) there simply is not enough time to focus on building an OL in the preferred method of using the draft. TD (and his designated offensive genil GW, Kragthorpe, Bresnahan, and then Gilbride) simply blew it using the preferred approach you endorse when they spent a 1st rounder on bust Mike Williams and a 3rd rounder on the good playing but injury prone Jonas Jennings. One can argue that their problem was not sticking with your advocated strategy and drafting some more potential OL studs after they screwed up with the draft picks they made. However, the quality of these OL choices (and also the OL alternatives available like the stupid McKinnie) raise many questions about how much of a cure an OL draft focus would have been given initial (and I would argue more important) failures that Ralph led this team to in mismanaging the Butler situation so that he was forced to take TD who then through his own insecurities of not repeating the situation where Bill Cowher ran him out of Pitts he made bad choices in hiring coaches here. If one's goal is to make the playoffs and even the SB through building your OL through FA rather than the draft you are simply flat out wrong in saying that the draft though a preferable method in the long run is the only alternative for building an OL. NYG is one clear example that it is certainly possible to substitute FA acquisition for the draft as an OL building method. FA acquisitions can be a substitute for building a successful OL, the issue is the same one though as building an OL though the draft if you pick bad players (Mike Williams), provide them with bad coaching (Bresnahan), in a dysfunctional offense (Kragthorpe and then Gilbride) you do badly. If one wants to reasonably advocate taking a different approach to OL development than the one the Bills took then this case to be credible needs a little more detail than simply stating the obvious.
stuckincincy Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 I am sorry but I am just beyond frustrated with this. Smaller OL's find ways to get yards on the ground......we have the 3rd largest line in the league......we use a FB so there is an extra blocker 30 yards? Marshawn doesnt have 1 100 yard game this season For quite a while, the rules favor the pass game. Seems like 3, 4 wide-outs is half the offensive formations these days. The Bills aren't the only club with low rush numbers. My feeling is that it's pretty much league-wide. Dunno...
RLflutie7 Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 I am sorry but I am just beyond frustrated with this. Smaller OL's find ways to get yards on the ground......we have the 3rd largest line in the league......we use a FB so there is an extra blocker 30 yards? Marshawn doesnt have 1 100 yard game this season Most of the time, it's the running back. Way back around the draft, I thought the Bills should have drafted another running back. I can't understand why teams have 10 linebackers and 10 defensive backs and only 3 or 4 running backs. Then they turn around and say how important it is to have a running game. The Bills should have drafted another running back - higher in the draft. In fact, I'd take a RB almost every year. The position requires it. I remember saying, that teams should draft offense only and get defense with free agents. Look at Denver, the get running backs every year, and I expect Ryan Torain to break out soon. Plus the have a smaller o-line. With the exception of our new LT.
Dawgg Posted November 3, 2008 Posted November 3, 2008 drafting and developing a solid OL is not the method the Bills should pursue now (or likely should have began to pursue prior to the 06 draft when Marv took over as GM) for the timing of the goals of this team and the other critical needs this team had (and have) there simply is not enough time to focus on building an OL in the preferred method of using the draft. You couldn't be more wrong. Good, young offensive linemen taken in them middle rounds can translate well into the NFL, early in their careers. If one wants to reasonably advocate taking a different approach to OL development than the one the Bills took then this case to be credible needs a little more detail than simply stating the obvious. You claim that 2006 was too late to start addressing the O-Line in the draft if the timetable called for making a playoff push this year. You're dead wrong. Here are some facts for you: - In 2006, the Jets spent 2 first round picks on offensive linemen, both of whom have playoff starts under their belt. Both started in an AFC Wildcard game that year. - In 2006, the Green Bay Packers spent 2nd and 3rd rounders on Daryn Colledge and Jason Spitz respectively. Both have been durable starters at guard and center. Both started in the divisional playoffs and the NFC Championship Game last year. - In 2006, the San Diego Chargers found both their starting tackles in a single draft! Marcus McNeill, the 2x Pro Bowl selection and Jeromey Clary, chosen in the 6th round of that same draft. The Chargers have had a very good rushing offense and have reached the playoffs featuring linemen they drafted and developed in-house. - In 2006, the Tampa Bay Bucs spent a first rounder on guard Davin Joseph and a second rounder on tackle Jeremy Trueblood. Both players started from Day 1 and managed to perform decently well in Jon Gruden's offense. They too have playoff experience, going into their third year. You can continue your homer-like support of the front office, but reality points you in a different direction. You can rip McKinnie all you want... but he has proven to be a capable offensive tackle in the NFL.
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