Pyrite Gal Posted November 1, 2008 Posted November 1, 2008 I object when fans say that Fletcher always made tackles down field. It was easy to think this, because Fletcher didn't look like a classic LB. It's just ironic to me that many fans did not realize how weak the Bills were at DT for 2006. IMO, that shortcoming translated into the LB's and DB's having to make more tackles, many of which were downfield. I think the Bills yielded 140 rypg in 06, and that figure didn't change much in 07. Before he was injured last season, Posluszny made a bunch of tackles, though very few made mention that they were downfield as well. Both Poz and LF made tackles sp far off the line because the front four could not control the LOS either year. Fletcher is a quality player whose durability is never in question. He's not a game changer, although he made plenty of TFL's in his time as a Bill. I realize the front office wanted a total rebuild and their own guys, but IMO it was a mistake to let go an experienced MLB who could play the C2. I actually could see why the Bills let Fletch go, but this was not because he was a bad player but because I think this team was getting rid of the old Bills leadership (TD to start and then on field guys like TKO and Fletch) so this team could get a fresh start and really be built in an image of Jauron and Marv's choosing. I think it is great that Fletch has maintained a good level of play to get this mid-season nod even though he is on the wrong side of 30. I think you are correct in noting the similarity of the tackling results of Pos and Fletch because in general I think this is true that both easily piled up a team lead in tackles but in both cases the C2 (more like a Tampa 2 that requires the MLB to not only plug holes on runs but also do deep coverage in the middle of the field. I would actually say that in the long run it is not unreasonable to judge that Pos will end up as a more accomplished player than Fletch, Fletch was a far better producer on the field than the rookie Pos was in his brief initial season but actually I think his last years with the Bills were more productive than Pos is producing for the Bills right now. It was not through a series of lucky breaks that Fletch not only led all LBs in the NFL in INTs his last year here but in fact led all the Bills in INTs. Fletch is on the wrong side of 30 because he has played this game a long time and did a great job of reading plays and covering the pass. Pos seems to have the natural football smarts that after a few years he also will have the vet ability to read plays. For now, those of us who root for Pos will have to make do with him having profited from seeing a full season of NFL games from the bench, but he still has to make use of the superior speed he has to to recover from getting fooled like many a young player into taking a false step forward on pass plays or a false step backward on run plays. The end result because he is a fast player with good football sense he makes the tackle but like many young players he makes the initial hit too far downfield to be a dominant player.....YET.
34-78-83 Posted November 1, 2008 Posted November 1, 2008 I object when fans say that Fletcher always made tackles down field. It was easy to think this, because Fletcher didn't look like a classic LB. It's just ironic to me that many fans did not realize how weak the Bills were at DT for 2006. IMO, that shortcoming translated into the LB's and DB's having to make more tackles, many of which were downfield. I think the Bills yielded 140 rypg in 06, and that figure didn't change much in 07. Before he was injured last season, Posluszny made a bunch of tackles, though very few made mention that they were downfield as well. Both Poz and LF made tackles sp far off the line because the front four could not control the LOS either year. Fletcher is a quality player whose durability is never in question. He's not a game changer, although he made plenty of TFL's in his time as a Bill. I realize the front office wanted a total rebuild and their own guys, but IMO it was a mistake to let go an experienced MLB who could play the C2. Another thing the "tackles downfield" group always failed to realize was that scheme is a huge factor on whether or not your tackles will come downfield or right at the line of scrimmage as a MLB.
StupidNation Posted November 1, 2008 Posted November 1, 2008 I always loved Fletcher on this team. I loved the signing and I hated watching him leave. He's still a good player, but certainly not the best MLB in the league. That belongs to Willis right now. The guy is a machine.
YOOOOOO Posted November 1, 2008 Posted November 1, 2008 I always loved Fletcher on this team. I loved the signing and I hated watching him leave. He's still a good player, but certainly not the best MLB in the league. That belongs to Willis right now. The guy is a machine. Willis has a chance to become elite but he isnt there yet....watching alot of 49er games(best friend is a niner fan)....Willis has the talent, plus fundementals down, he gets near you he is going to take you down with his speed and tackling ability....but right now he lacks complete awareness and the ability shed blockers especially on short yardage plays.... Will he become elite eventually....for sure is he there right now....Nope
The Dean Posted November 1, 2008 Posted November 1, 2008 Willis has a chance to become elite but he isnt there yet....watching alot of 49er games(best friend is a niner fan)....Willis has the talent, plus fundementals down, he gets near you he is going to take you down with his speed and tackling ability....but right now he lacks complete awareness and the ability shed blockers especially on short yardage plays.... Will he become elite eventually....for sure is he there right now....Nope From what I have seen, you are correct, YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Ramius Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 But, but, but, whitner was a reach and doesn't make any plays! He's all talk! [/dawgg and his band of idiots]
Dawgg Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 But, but, but, whitner was a reach and doesn't make any plays! He's all talk! [/dawgg and his band of idiots] But, but but, a reporter said it, so it must be true! [/ramius and his fellow homers]
cale Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 This can't be right. I've been reading, on this very board, that Whitner sucks, he was a reach and he doesn't make any plays. For crying out loud, maybe it's just me, I don't think anyone here is saying Whitner can't play. He obviously has been a real leader on this team. But when you pick 8th, the guy IMHO has to be a game changer. Someone people game plan for, someone people take into account. That Raiders CB Asama-something is such a player. Haloti Ngata is such a player. Jay Cutler is such a player. Even Haynesworth is such a guy. Whitner IMO still needs to earn that and hasn't done anything on the field, that I if I were an OC would not be able to counter. He's a very good cover safety. Nothing more than that. Maybe that'll show in years to come. But his play isn't game changing. Further, that draft needs a context. We until we got Stroud this year needed a good DT. Ngata was such a guy. Because we got Whitner and passed on Ngata, we overcompensated and got McCargo while trading an extra pick. I think we need to factor that into the Whitner pick. DTs - especially blue chippers - are terribly hard to find. I would argue that we could have found a lesser talented safety either in the draft or thru FA who could have contributed adequately because someone like Ngata was collapsing pockets or stopping runners up front. A safety like Whitner is crucial to a Tampa Cover 2 system With his speed, I'm sure the Bills brass thought they needed him for that system. Fine. But please, let's stop this talk about how he was so worth that pick and that we *did* not reach. We did reach cause we needed *that* player for *this* system. It wasn't the best available player mantra at that point, it's that "we need someone like that and we don't do this now, there's no guarantee we'll find someone to fit" OK. I disagree with the decision. But I'm glad we have him just because I think he's a good guy and a good influence on his peers. I'd rather not he came at such a high price tag. But what the hell do I know. Now, this is the same FO that spent a high pick on a DB this year that they don't think they can trust to start when their starter CBs are out of commission. The guy is taking some time to learn his part. Same with the 2nd round WR Hardy. It's OK. I trust that the FO knows what they're doing. But in this league there's a balance between a guy's upside and what his immediate contribution can be. There are players like Eddie Royal and Chris Johnson from the Titans who are immediate contributors. So is DeSean Jackson. Defensive players are supposed to have an easier time. At some level, we're all Monday Morning Quarterbacking here on who we should have picked and whom we shouldn't have. That's fine. But just because I disagree with where we picked a player and why, doesn't make me an idiot. And please don't point to a toy newspaper's mid season review to justify your gripe. I'm glad we have Whitner. He's a very good player who is showing leadership qualities. Good for him. I'm awfully grateful we had Daryll Talley alongside Bruce. But we didn't have to spend a 1st rounder on Talley. So please could we stop anointing him as the next Ronnie Lott or John Lynch? I am of the opinion we reached for Donte and could have had him later. So what? Until he lays out a WR or RB cold as he's coming across his zone and that changes the tenor of the game and the opposing offense has to change the way they would normally go about their business, please, please can we just agree to disagree? C
Dawgg Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 For crying out loud, maybe it's just me, I don't think anyone here is saying Whitner can't play. He obviously has been a real leader on this team. But when you pick 8th, the guy IMHO has to be a game changer. Someone people game plan for, someone people take into account. That Raiders CB Asama-something is such a player. Haloti Ngata is such a player. Jay Cutler is such a player. Even Haynesworth is such a guy. Whitner IMO still needs to earn that and hasn't done anything on the field, that I if I were an OC would not be able to counter. He's a very good cover safety. Nothing more than that. Maybe that'll show in years to come. But his play isn't game changing. Further, that draft needs a context. We until we got Stroud this year needed a good DT. Ngata was such a guy. Because we got Whitner and passed on Ngata, we overcompensated and got McCargo while trading an extra pick. I think we need to factor that into the Whitner pick. DTs - especially blue chippers - are terribly hard to find. I would argue that we could have found a lesser talented safety either in the draft or thru FA who could have contributed adequately because someone like Ngata was collapsing pockets or stopping runners up front. A safety like Whitner is crucial to a Tampa Cover 2 system With his speed, I'm sure the Bills brass thought they needed him for that system. Fine. But please, let's stop this talk about how he was so worth that pick and that we *did* not reach. We did reach cause we needed *that* player for *this* system. It wasn't the best available player mantra at that point, it's that "we need someone like that and we don't do this now, there's no guarantee we'll find someone to fit" OK. I disagree with the decision. But I'm glad we have him just because I think he's a good guy and a good influence on his peers. I'd rather not he came at such a high price tag. But what the hell do I know. Now, this is the same FO that spent a high pick on a DB this year that they don't think they can trust to start when their starter CBs are out of commission. The guy is taking some time to learn his part. Same with the 2nd round WR Hardy. It's OK. I trust that the FO knows what they're doing. But in this league there's a balance between a guy's upside and what his immediate contribution can be. There are players like Eddie Royal and Chris Johnson from the Titans who are immediate contributors. So is DeSean Jackson. Defensive players are supposed to have an easier time. At some level, we're all Monday Morning Quarterbacking here on who we should have picked and whom we shouldn't have. That's fine. But just because I disagree with where we picked a player and why, doesn't make me an idiot. And please don't point to a toy newspaper's mid season review to justify your gripe. I'm glad we have Whitner. He's a very good player who is showing leadership qualities. Good for him. I'm awfully grateful we had Daryll Talley alongside Bruce. But we didn't have to spend a 1st rounder on Talley. So please could we stop anointing him as the next Ronnie Lott or John Lynch? I am of the opinion we reached for Donte and could have had him later. So what? Until he lays out a WR or RB cold as he's coming across his zone and that changes the tenor of the game and the opposing offense has to change the way they would normally go about their business, please, please can we just agree to disagree? C Post of the month. Well articulated and 100% accurate. The simple-minded among us fail to realize that the Bills, going into the draft were desperate for DL help. With a blue-chip lineman staring at them right in the face, they inexplicably passed on him. About 18 picks later, we quickly found out why. They had their eyes on John McCargo, a vastly overrated player. The rest is history. Whitner holds team pizza parties at his house and is a great in front of a microphone and McCargo has essentially played himself out of a Bills uniform. Homers - you taking notes?
CDogg20 Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 No he sux...no INT's or PD's hes awful... If it weren't for his play in the end-zone on Higgen we wouldn't have won that game...well deserved, Congrats Donte
The Dean Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 If it weren't for his play in the end-zone on Higgen we wouldn't have won that game...well deserved, Congrats Donte The guy has made big plays all year. You just actually have to watch to see them...they aren't on SportsCenter.
LabattBlue Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 But, but but, a reporter said it, so it must be true! [/ramius and his fellow homers]
YOOOOOO Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 If it weren't for his play in the end-zone on Higgen we wouldn't have won that game...well deserved, Congrats Donte You dont have to tell me..... I understand this game....some others on this board... Not so much
Dawgg Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 If it weren't for his play in the end-zone on Higgen we wouldn't have won that game...well deserved, Congrats Donte If you're talking about the unsportsmanlike conduct penalty... you've made my point.
StupidNation Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 The guy has made big plays all year. You just actually have to watch to see them...they aren't on SportsCenter. Point one out to me. This game is one more example of a good rushing tackler, and not much else.
The Dean Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 Point one out to me. This game is one more example of a good rushing tackler, and not much else. He rarely was lined up close to the LOS, today. In fact, when he left the game, Corner came in. Can you tell me which play he sucked on in coverage today? What big play, did he allow? Don't blame the Whitner for what the coaches don't ask him to do, or what the offense doesn't attempt when he is in deep coverage.
BillnutinHouston Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 But when you pick 8th, the guy IMHO has to be a game changer. Agreed, in a nutshell.
bills44 Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 For crying out loud, maybe it's just me, I don't think anyone here is saying Whitner can't play. He obviously has been a real leader on this team. But when you pick 8th, the guy IMHO has to be a game changer. Someone people game plan for, someone people take into account. That Raiders CB Asama-something is such a player. Haloti Ngata is such a player. Jay Cutler is such a player. Even Haynesworth is such a guy. Whitner IMO still needs to earn that and hasn't done anything on the field, that I if I were an OC would not be able to counter. He's a very good cover safety. Nothing more than that. Maybe that'll show in years to come. But his play isn't game changing. Further, that draft needs a context. We until we got Stroud this year needed a good DT. Ngata was such a guy. Because we got Whitner and passed on Ngata, we overcompensated and got McCargo while trading an extra pick. I think we need to factor that into the Whitner pick. DTs - especially blue chippers - are terribly hard to find. I would argue that we could have found a lesser talented safety either in the draft or thru FA who could have contributed adequately because someone like Ngata was collapsing pockets or stopping runners up front. A safety like Whitner is crucial to a Tampa Cover 2 system With his speed, I'm sure the Bills brass thought they needed him for that system. Fine. But please, let's stop this talk about how he was so worth that pick and that we *did* not reach. We did reach cause we needed *that* player for *this* system. It wasn't the best available player mantra at that point, it's that "we need someone like that and we don't do this now, there's no guarantee we'll find someone to fit" OK. I disagree with the decision. But I'm glad we have him just because I think he's a good guy and a good influence on his peers. I'd rather not he came at such a high price tag. But what the hell do I know. Now, this is the same FO that spent a high pick on a DB this year that they don't think they can trust to start when their starter CBs are out of commission. The guy is taking some time to learn his part. Same with the 2nd round WR Hardy. It's OK. I trust that the FO knows what they're doing. But in this league there's a balance between a guy's upside and what his immediate contribution can be. There are players like Eddie Royal and Chris Johnson from the Titans who are immediate contributors. So is DeSean Jackson. Defensive players are supposed to have an easier time. At some level, we're all Monday Morning Quarterbacking here on who we should have picked and whom we shouldn't have. That's fine. But just because I disagree with where we picked a player and why, doesn't make me an idiot. And please don't point to a toy newspaper's mid season review to justify your gripe. I'm glad we have Whitner. He's a very good player who is showing leadership qualities. Good for him. I'm awfully grateful we had Daryll Talley alongside Bruce. But we didn't have to spend a 1st rounder on Talley. So please could we stop anointing him as the next Ronnie Lott or John Lynch? I am of the opinion we reached for Donte and could have had him later. So what? Until he lays out a WR or RB cold as he's coming across his zone and that changes the tenor of the game and the opposing offense has to change the way they would normally go about their business, please, please can we just agree to disagree? C Great post.
StupidNation Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 He rarely was lined up close to the LOS, today. In fact, when he left the game, Corner came in. Can you tell me which play he sucked on in coverage today? What big play, did he allow? Don't blame the Whitner for what the coaches don't ask him to do, or what the offense doesn't attempt when he is in deep coverage. Don't change YOUR point (not mine) you said you could tell us about a big play he has accomplished. All I'm saying is that he is excellent on playing the run, and not so great in coverage, actually below average. He doesn't give up the play, he just plays off the receiver and goes for tackles over playing the ball. Since you won't point out the big-plays you've mentioned that exist, can you admit if it was 4th and 5 in the 4th quarter you would not want him in the secondary and would prefer many other safeties in coverage? If I'm wrong, point out where I'm wrong.
YOOOOOO Posted November 2, 2008 Posted November 2, 2008 Don't change YOUR point (not mine) you said you could tell us about a big play he has accomplished. All I'm saying is that he is excellent on playing the run, and not so great in coverage, actually below average. He doesn't give up the play, he just plays off the receiver and goes for tackles over playing the ball. Since you won't point out the big-plays you've mentioned that exist, can you admit if it was 4th and 5 in the 4th quarter you would not want him in the secondary and would prefer many other safeties in coverage? If I'm wrong, point out where I'm wrong. Dude once again this is another game were you cant defend that point....You just say he is but dont come up with any plays to backup your point.... Come up with the plays were he got beat on....and maybe we can have a discussion here The only one i remember off hand was the Coles catch on 3rd down...were Whitner was the nickel in what looked like a zone base....Coles came across the middle...Farve hit him as he came across the middle of the field.....Whitner shortly after came in on the tackle....
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