IDBillzFan Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 The only people confused by Obama's tax plan seem to be the people who wouldn't be voting for him anyway. Actually, I think most everyone is confused by Obama's tax plan because they keep changing their message. The difference is, some of the confused are the people who are making enough money to worry about whether they fall into this moving target. And the rest are earning a lower- to middle-class income, but don't give a shiiit about being confused because they only hear they're getting free money. Don't confuse apathy with lack of confusion. Ok so fill me in...an attack on America is more likely under Obama as President because...? It's not more likely. It's been guaranteed by Biden. You've missed this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Coli Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Bill Ayers - Just a guy in my neighborhoodRev. Wright - I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother "Frank" just some guy in his book - Happens to be "Frank Marshall Davis" known communist and Obama's mentor http://www.aim.org/aim-column/obamas-communist-mentor/ Hell this list goes on forever and he's only 47 years old. Hell, same age as me. I know I didn't hang out with any left wing radicals in High School or College like this guy did. Have you guys read his book? It's pretty telling where his ideology is and it's only been expanded with age. You Obama supporters are not being objective about this guy. People want to believe what they here and he does sound great with his polished speeches and rhetoric, but you need to look inside the man and what those words really mean. If elected, this will be the single biggest disaster in U.S. Presidential history. A Pelosi - Reed - Obama controlled government will be unfettered bringing about a progressive liberal socialist ideology that will be hard to overturn. And everything you've listed has been out in the open for months. Do you think that perhaps the majority of Americans voting for Obama just don't care? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 And everything you've listed has been out in the open for months. Do you think that perhaps the majority of Americans voting for Obama just don't care? Are you kidding me? Why should they care? They're getting free money!!!! Like anything else matters to them!!! He can have sex with Keith Olbermann on primetime and the majority of Americans voting for him won't care AS LONG AS THE GRAVY TRAIN KEEPS MOVING. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Coli Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Actually, I think most everyone is confused by Obama's tax plan because they keep changing their message. The difference is, some of the confused are the people who are making enough money to worry about whether they fall into this moving target. And the rest are earning a lower- to middle-class income, but don't give a shiiit about being confused because they only hear they're getting free money. Don't confuse apathy with lack of confusion. I wouldn't say Obama's supporters are apathetic at all, and your notion that people making over $250k aren't supporting Obama is 100% inaccurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Coli Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Are you kidding me? Why should they care? They're getting free money!!!! Like anything else matters to them!!! He can have sex with Keith Olbermann on primetime and the majority of Americans voting for him won't care AS LONG AS THE GRAVY TRAIN KEEPS MOVING. Well, I don't share the characterization of the majority of Americans you just laid out. And it's not free money. Not by any stretch. Go and look at the tax plans and what getting those deductions entails. The $4000 higher education refund (the annual tuition at a public college/university averaged $6500 last year) goes straight to the college or university, and not the person paying the tuition. The green car refund is $7000. A Prius is almost four times that. It's not free money. It's not a handout to the lazy and the shiftless. You are wrong. You know you are wrong. And I expect you to continue to shrilly obfuscate well past next Tuesday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Pissed? No. I just think our leaders should be a little more honest. $200k-$250k isn't 'rich' if you live in an area of the country were a starter house is $500k, income, sales, gas and property taxes are all outrageously high, it costs $4k per year to do the environmentally right thing and take the train to work, it costs $15k per year to send your kid to college because there are no loans for you, childcare is expensive unless one of you stays home (and now you're only making half of the income) etc., etc. A working couple each making $100k is certainly not driving Bentleys around like Obama wants people to think. I understand that certain idiots on this board believe $200k = "Wall Street CEO", but it's simply not the case. Does it allow you to send your kid to college, take some nice vacations and save for your own retirement? Sure; but the vast majority of those people are working pretty hard for that money, so I find Obama's characterization to be disingenuous. I'm not all that concerned about a net increase of $1000 in taxes next year. My underlying concern is that politicians like Obama want to continue to vilify and punish the small percentage of people who are responsible for a large portion of the job creation -- so that we can promise more and more giveaways to an increasing share of the populous. IMO, that is not sustainable and it's setting ourselves up for an economic disaster far worse than anything that's happening today. That's why I fully expect his magic 'rich' number to continue to fall. $250K.....$200K......how low can he go? I know it's not going to happen much on the campaign trail, but I sure hope once he's in his message to people is "live within your means" rather than "the government will take care of you as long as you vote me in again". That's a very good post and articulation of your beliefs, and it's just as fair a POV as mine and Obama's. You may be more right, in fact. Who knows. It's just an opinion, and a way of looking at things. One thing people tend to overlook, is that whether you agree or disagree with the idea that people making 250K+ should pay 36% or 39%, it doesn't mean one choice is utterly awesome and the other is criminally stupid. For me, I understand both sides, I just agree more with the 39% argument. Like a 55 for-45 against thing. Actually, his stump speech on the campaign trail does indeed end with a message to people to "live within your means" rather than "the government will take care of you as long as you vote me in again" mantra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Well, I don't share the characterization of the majority of Americans you just laid out. And it's not free money. Not by any stretch. Go and look at the tax plans and what getting those deductions entails. The $4000 higher education refund (the annual tuition at a public college/university averaged $6500 last year) goes straight to the college or university, and not the person paying the tuition. The green car refund is $7000. A Prius is almost four times that. It's not free money. It's not a handout to the lazy and the shiftless. You are wrong. You know you are wrong. And I expect you to continue to shrilly obfuscate well past next Tuesday. The man stood up and essentially told everyone repeatedly, if you earn under $250,000/year, I'm going to give you money. Over and over and over and over. Obviously the only people hearing this message are people who don't agree with his policies because the man can say ANTHING at this point and his supporters, like yourself, will follow him into the ocean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 That was a mistake by Biden. It was, and continues to be $250K for working families and $200K for singles. It wasn't at all a mistake by Biden. He wasn't talking about the specifics of Obama's plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 What stuns me is that McCain's campaign has spent so much time in the past few weeks using all of their interview "air-time" tearing apart Obama that I could not even tell you what THEIR plan for our country is. Maybe the Dems are winning because they are using their time to actually offer ideas. People who won't vote for Obama still won't, but there is a huge independent and undecided block that is hearing "tear down" rhetoric from one side and ideas on how to improve(?) the country on the other. Is it any wonder why Independents are trending Dem this year? McCain should sue his campaign staff when this election is over. You should sit down on my couch and watch my tv. Not the few minutes of air time McCain gets..the easy 10 to one commercial spot onslaught that the Obama camp pummels with me. "McCain should sue his campaign staff when this election is over". That should be the other away around! Just like the many in the primaries that voted for Mrs. Clinton, there are plenty of Republicans who hold and pinch their noses at this particular slate... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacka Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 It wasn't at all a mistake by Biden. He wasn't talking about the specifics of Obama's plan. Then WTF was he talking about???? A mini-stroke caused by another aneurysm?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In-A-Gadda-Levitre Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Actually, I think most everyone is confused by Obama's tax plan because they keep changing their message. The difference is, some of the confused are the people who are making enough money to worry about whether they fall into this moving target. And the rest are earning a lower- to middle-class income, but don't give a shiiit about being confused because they only hear they're getting free money. Don't confuse apathy with lack of confusion. It's not more likely. It's been guaranteed by Biden. You've missed this? How has his campaign kept changing it's message on taxes? The $150K screwup statement by Biden? Beat him up for that, but what else you got? What is so freaking hard to understand, Mr. Small Business Owner, about any working families under $250K and any singles under $200K get a tax break? There is no moving target, except if you want to create a smokescreen. The Tax Policy Center has crunched this in detail and has made no changes in the tax rates nor whom was affected since it was first proposed. Newsflash: both candidates will be tested, you can bet on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 It's not more likely. It's been guaranteed by Biden. You've missed this? Link me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 How has his campaign kept changing it's message on taxes? The $150K screwup statement by Biden? Beat him up for that, but what else you got? What is so freaking hard to understand, Mr. Small Business Owner, about any working families under $250K and any singles under $200K get a tax break? There is no moving target, except if you want to create a smokescreen. The Tax Policy Center has crunched this in detail and has made no changes in the tax rates nor whom was affected since it was first proposed. Newsflash: both candidates will be tested, you can bet on it. I don't know. In one speech it's $250K. In another speech it's $200K. And I don't know why they hell they let Biden speak about this when he can't even count to four. Oh, and all candidates are tested, but Biden "guaranteed" the crisis. He guarantfreakinteed it to people who actually paid $1,000 a head to hear him tell them this. There's a difference between being tested, and KNOWING, WITHOUT QUESTION, that something is going to happen, but not tell people how to protect themselves. That's reckless and irresponsible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Link me. Ok I don't need a link, i didn't realize what you were talking about. How does Biden claiming "Obama will be tested" making an attack any more likely? He didn't even specify as to how he'd be tested. You are really reaching now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Then WTF was he talking about???? A mini-stroke caused by another aneurysm?? He was just assigning an arbitrary number to his definition of "middle class". He used less than $150,000 as that number. It had ZERO to do with what the cut off numbers are for Obama's plan, which have never changed. The difference is in the wording, between tax cut, tax break, tax credit, tax raise, etc. Once in a great while, one of them will make a mistake and confuse tax break with tax cut, or tax credit with tax cut. But the plan has never changed. Only families who make over 250K will get a tax raise. 95% of the families, which are ones that make 200K or less, will get a tax cut. That is where the confusion is. 98% of the families make less than 250K. 95% of the families make less than 200K. So when he says 95% of the families will get a tax cut, he's right. When he says 98% of the families will not get a tax raise he is right. It is the same plan and numbers as always. The 3% of the families obviously reside in the 250-200 number. And if you are a single, it is 200K, not 250. That is what it always was and still is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Link me. Here ya go. Mark my words... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In-A-Gadda-Levitre Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 It wasn't at all a mistake by Biden. He wasn't talking about the specifics of Obama's plan. When I said mistake, I meant he shouldn't have made the statement "What we're saying is that $87 billion tax break doesn't need to go to people making an average of $1.4 million - it should go like it used to. It should go to middle class people - people making under $150,000 a year" because his choice of words connects his response to Obama's tax plan in people's minds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 When I said mistake, I meant he shouldn't have made the statement "What we're saying is that $87 billion tax break doesn't need to go to people making an average of $1.4 million - it should go like it used to. It should go to middle class people - people making under $150,000 a year" because his choice of words connects his response to Obama's tax plan in people's minds. Only to people that wish to distort what he says. But Joe doesn't filter his own words enough that people can't distort them. He does have the dreaded foot in mouth disease. That is a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacka Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 How can 95% get a tax break when 40% DON"T EVEN PAY ANY TAXES?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacka Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Only to people that wish to distort what he says. But Joe doesn't filter his own words enough that people can't distort them. He does have the dreaded foot in mouth disease. That is a problem. Biden is a freakin' village idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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