Today's Mort Chat

[2003Contenders]

QB's are pretty hard to predict. There are probably more busts than booms at the position--so I don't fault TD for that.

 

In fact, TD had his heart set on Ben R. in 2004, but he was taken a pick before us. So, really, TD got that one right too.

 

 

Moreover, I think it was Wyche that had the infatuation with JP. He was the one that scouted him in Louisiana at a workout headlined by Eli Manning. Wyche came away feeling that JP had actually had the better workout of the two.

[TheLynchTrain]

Hmm, lets see what Greg Easterbrook has to say about Tom Donahoe:

 

"The Bills are still reeling from the final two years of bumbling former president and general manager Tom Donahoe; his 2004 and 2005 drafts produced just one player expected to start in 2008: receiver Lee Evans. Donahoe was also the genius who let Pat Williams go, though Bills owner Ralph Wilson strongly wished to re-sign the Ticonderoga-class defensive tackle. Donahoe told Wilson that Williams was washed up; since being shown the door at Buffalo, Williams has been voted to two Pro Bowls. Note that after being shown the door himself in 2006, Donahoe has not worked in football. Bottom line for a web of Bills trades over the past year: Buffalo surrendered the complaining Willis McGahee and the fading Takeo Spikes for Trent Edwards, Marcus Stroud and a late draft choice. That's the kind of sharp management decision making the Bills lacked under Donahoe."

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story...mp;sportCat=nfl

[TheLynchTrain]

But where is the LaDarius guy...he'll tell us Tom Donahoe is a genius because he drafted Eric King and Justin Geisinger!

[Búfalo Blanco]

I have no problem with Mort's view on TD--I agree with him in a way. TD was a very good evaluator of talent (just not of coaching talent).

 

That said, Mort's problem is that he has adopted an anti-Bills bias in a way to fight back for TD's firing and treatment. There's no need to undermine Marv, Russ, and the current Bills if the goal is to simply defend TD.

 

 

So he admits his grudge, and shows that he's not an unbiased reporter. Nice.

 

 

Exactly.... This is an ESPN "journalist" giving his personal opinion.... What's next for Mort's "No Spin Zone"???

 

This guy has the balls to mention integrity??? Is there any objectivity left in journalism?

[Lori]

HOLY CRAP:

 

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=23290

 

Coach Tuesday (NYC): Mort: there is a perception out there among Bills fans that you have been overly critical of the organization ever since Tom Donahoe was fired. Any response to that notion?

 

Chris Mortensen: (12:11 PM ET ) I am on record as saying Donohoe's firing was silly (espeically have the late great GM John Butler explained to me why he fleed Buffalo for San Diego). I would need 1,500 words to break it down and show you why. What i don't understand is why Bills fans - whom I have had great admiration for in the past - are so mean and vindictive, and unwilling to acknoledge that even their success now is connected to the foundation Donohoe built. Remember, he inherited a franchise that had severe salary cap problems, a QB mess and was rudderless. I like Dick Jauron and I like Trent Edwards. Still, even when you look at contributing players on the team now and others around the league Donohoe drafted or signed, you will see he was capable and, not only that, a good man of integrity, a father & husband who has been subjected to too many unfair and mean-spirited barbs. One day, I will take the time to break it all down but, at the same time, not detract at all to what the Bills are doing today - winning.

 

Donahoe had some successes and some failures here, and he did dig the team out of the salcap hell Butler had put them in. One could argue, however, that the QB mess at the end of his tenure was just as sloppy as the one he started with, albeit without the polarized fans. Flutie/Johnson/AVP, or Losman/Holcomb when Losman was still yo-yoing in and out of the lineup? Bottom line: none of the five names on that list has ever won a playoff game. (Obviously, Losman hasn't had a chance to play in one.)

 

And "rudderless?" Yes, I remember the good old days at the end of Donahoe's tenure, when Ralph Wilson had to make a special trip to Buffalo to mediate a dispute between the head coach and the star WR. And the first-hand account of TD standing in the press box during the beatdown by New England, cell phone and binoculars at hand to call down stadium security on people with "FIRE MULARKEY" signs, is pure last-days-of-Nixon stuff. Strong hand at the helm there, as the ship sailed deeper into the maelstrom.

 

So ... I guess Mort didn't appreciate the "TD is the Son of Satan" thread.

And to be fair, there are some "fans" who take this game far too seriously, and some of the abuse directed at players and coaches they don't like certainly qualifies as mean-spirited. I would suggest to Mort that this is not unique to Buffalo, but I'd also be curious to hear some of the horror stories Donahoe told him.

 

One more thought: we already have a pretty good idea why Butler left. All Mort had to do was type the phrase "meddling owner," and we'd have understood completely.

[BEAST MODE BABY!]

Agreed. I think this stems from TD's power struggle with Cowher in Pittsburgh. He wasn't going to hire anyone who would stand up to him or try to seize power. As a result, he ended up hiring guys that can follow orders and are great assistant coaches, but not-so-good head coaches.

 

That's a pretty good analogy. It's like how some people handle other relationships, like when divorce happens. If their ex-spouse was one way, they pick someone who's the opposite. Usually, if people over-correct on the second relationship it usually ends up in divorce #2 and then they find mr./mrs/ right in relationship #3.

 

Looks like Tom is still waiting for 3#

[Cornerville]

HOLY CRAP: What i don't understand is why Bills fans - whom I have had great admiration for in the past - are so mean and vindictive

 

 

Well I guess it is clear to say Mort reads twobills

[Lori]

Well I guess it is clear to say Mort reads twobills

But was he reading TBD when Donahoe told complaining Bills fans to "save the postage," then whacked the letters-to-the-editor section out of Bills Digest?

 

I know I've posted it here before, but Chuck Pollock wrote the best summation I saw of the Donahoe era:

Bills had no choice but to let Donahue go

 

And here's two earlier columns, from before and after that Patriots game:

Bills, Mularkey having problems on, off field

Will attitude cost Bills coach, GM their jobs?

 

Pollock was here. Mort wasn't. Maybe someone should send him copies of these ...

[BillsVet]

Agreed. I think this stems from TD's power struggle with Cowher in Pittsburgh. He wasn't going to hire anyone who would stand up to him or try to seize power. As a result, he ended up hiring guys that can follow orders and are great assistant coaches, but not-so-good head coaches.

 

TD was a jerk, that much was sure. The Steelers chose wisely when TD was allowed to go in keeping Bill Cowher.

 

I can't help but wonder if TD's budget from RW for a coach wasn't what most teams have. That's completely speculative on my part. I think it can be reasonably said that RW isn't high on paying coaches top dollar. Paying big money for coaches guarantees nothing, though on gameday a good coach makes their team better by putting their players in the best position to win.

 

One could argue the Bills (EDIT: haven't) had a visionary HC since Marv departed after 1997. Only a roster stocked with talent can mitigate bad coaching, and Buffalo almost did that in 2004.

[keepthefaith]

Wow - Nice job getting in there. It's plainly evident that mort is a complete Homer...though I really do admire his loyalty to his friends. In the end though, a blind mand can see Donohoe did a horrible job with his time in Buffalo.

 

When you don't win, you're criticized for your actions and even personilty flaws. Donohoe seemed arrogant in defeat. In Chicago, when Dick Jauron didn't win, he was criticized for being too conservative and simplistic on offense plus for not showing any emotional leadership.

[Bill from NYC]

TD was a good evaluator of talent, IMO. But, he was a gambler, who much preferred the possibility of big impact, to sure solidness. He lost to many of the high stakes bets, toward the end with the Bills.

 

As for the coaches, I'm not sure if he was unable to judge coaches, but I am fairly certain he was unwilling to hire one who would challenge his decisions. Unlike the team approach utilized by Marv, after taking over for Tom, TD believed he knew more than anyone else, and needed to make all the decisions, it seemed. That approach can work to turn around a team quickly...when it works. But, if it fails, it tends to fail pretty dramatically (and that's not just in football, but in most organizations). Given that the Bills aren't the Cowboys or the Redskins when it comes to throwing around $$$, every year in the FA market, and changing coaches with several years on their contracts, TD's approach had less of a chance of working in Buffalo, than it would with another team, IMO.

 

In his defense, he did take over a horrible situation in Buffalo, with a bad team in salary cap trouble. In the end, though, he left the team in bad shape on the field, but in decent financial shape. At least Marv and the boys didn't have to dig themselves out of cap hell, to rebuild. And, TD did leave some talented players on the club, as well. Basically, he had acquired good parts, but the whole was a mess, for many reasons.

 

Great post!

 

Remember, TD had to dump 2 worthless players (Ostroski and Fina), and it cost more than 10 million in cap space to do so. It hurt a lot because the cap was lower then, but he had no choice, whereas these guys were indescribably bad.

He tried to address the OL. He took Jennings who was imo very good but a china doll. Selecting MW was an act of arrogance. Williams was a fat RT and he passed on McKinnie and Jones to take a him at #4. The rationale often put out there was that his college qb was left handed, but that is garbage imo. MW was never going to be agile enough to play LT in this league. On his best day, he was nothing but a mauler, and RTs are simply never drafted that high. Not ever.

Because of the OL failure, this team had little to no chance of winning. Bledsoe needed all day to throw, and JP was thrown in there without a clue.

 

In summary, I think that while TD did have an eye for talent, he couldn't see so well because his ego and arrogant nature were blocking his view.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Calling that an act of arrogance it totally absurd and a great way to look like a genius in hindsight. I'm certainly not going to go back and look up 5 year old posts and for all I know maybe you stated that prior to the pick. But there was clearly no consensus at the time to pick McKinnie over Williams. In fact from what I recall reading at time more people and media preferred Williams. McKinnie certainly hasn't done a whole lot to justify the #4 pick either as he would have been if picked by the Bill's. Certainly he's done much better than Williams, but he still would have been labeled a bust and I'd be shocked if he had been picked by the Bills, if he were still with the team.

 

As has been pointed out, the draft is a crap shoot in many ways. Actually if you want to look real smart, just right a post that every pick taken in the draft was a mistake and you'll be right more than you'll be wrong. Not trying to defend TD as he certainly didn't do a great job, but calling the pick of Williams arrogant is totally off base and typical of the behavior that Mort is calling Bill's fan out for. Not that I'm defending Mort either, but by calling the pick of Williams arrogant, he is correct in stating that many Bill's fans comments about TD are totally vindictive. This comment just proves his point!

 

 

Great post!

 

Selecting MW was an act of arrogance. Williams was a fat RT and he passed on McKinnie and Jones to take a him at #4. The rationale often put out there was that his college qb was left handed, but that is garbage imo. MW was never going to be agile enough to play LT in this league. On his best day, he was nothing but a mauler, and RTs are simply never drafted that high. Not ever.

Because of the OL failure, this team had little to no chance of winning. Bledsoe needed all day to throw, and JP was thrown in there without a clue.

 

In summary, I think that while TD did have an eye for talent, he couldn't see so well because his ego and arrogant nature were blocking his view.

[The Dean]

Calling that an act of arrogance it totally absurd and a great way to look like a genius in hindsight. I'm certainly not going to go back and look up 5 year old posts and for all I know maybe you stated that prior to the pick. But there was clearly no consensus at the time to pick McKinnie over Williams. In fact from what I recall reading at time more people and media preferred Williams. McKinnie certainly hasn't done a whole lot to justify the #4 pick either as he would have been if picked by the Bill's. Certainly he's done much better than Williams, but he still would have been labeled a bust and I'd be shocked if he had been picked by the Bills, if he were still with the team.

 

 

I'd be shocked if either of them would be with the team had they turned out to be actually worthy of the #4 pick. On offensive tackle worth the #4 pick is likely playing LT and a 1st rate, All Pro LT, who was picked early in the 1st round would be gone to FA by now.

 

The Bills might actually luck out if they redo Peters' deal this offseason, as he will obviously not get the kind of $$ he would have gotten had he showed up to camp AND continued to improve (we don't know that he would have). Had Jason Peters become a two-time Pro Bowler, and recognized as one of the best in the game, my guess is he might prefer to go FA once his contract was up.

[Big Turk]

Did he also mention that Donahoe was paranoid and an egomaniac that drove people away from him and not towards him?

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Will be interesting to see how the Peters deal plays out. Will JP still try to claim he's worth top $$, will he take less, or will he be willing to go the final year of his contract, hopeing he does regain his form, if he does then ask for out of this world money and if the Bills don't agree, the nhe only would have ot wait out one year to become a free agent.

 

I wonder if he realizes his valsue has decreased or is he blind to that??

 

 

The Bills might actually luck out if they redo Peters' deal this offseason, as he will obviously not get the kind of $$ he would have gotten had he showed up to camp AND continued to improve (we don't know that he would have). Had Jason Peters become a two-time Pro Bowler, and recognized as one of the best in the game, my guess is he might prefer to go FA once his contract was up.

[Dibs]

I think these are the pro-bowl guys too.

 

Angelo Crowell - Starter

Terrance McGee -Starter - (Pro bowl)

Chris Kelsay - Starter

Aaron Schobel - Starter - (Pro-bowl twice)

Josh Reed - Starter

Rian Lindell - Starter

Jason Peters - Starter - (Pro bowl)

Jabari Greer - Starter

Lee Evans - Starter

Brian Moorman - Starter - (Pro-bowl twice)

Roscoe Parrish - Starter ST/ 3rd receiver

George Wilson - Backup

Bryan Scott - Backup

JP Losman - Backup

Ryan Denney - Backup

Duke Preston - Backup

 

Donahoe doesn't look so bad when looking at this list.

Depends on how one looks at it.....

Mort said....."and unwilling to acknoledge that even their success now is connected to the foundation Donohoe built"

The Foundation Donohoe built.

As I see it, we can ignore backups as they cannot be considered part of a teams foundation.

We can also ignore UFAs(Peters, Greer, Moorman) as these players not only(typically) take a long time to develop but again are not brought into the team expecting them to be part of the foundation.

We can also ignore the STers......unless a guy is HOF level game changing then again cannot be considered to be part of the foundation of a strong team.

 

That leaves us with....

Angelo Crowell - average starter

Terrance McGee - decent starter

Chris Kelsay - average starter

Aaron Schobel - Starter - (Pro-bowl twice)

Josh Reed - Starter

Lee Evans - Starter

Roscoe Parrish - average starter

 

In 5 drafts and 5 off-seasons.......in relation to a foundation......we were left with a probwol DE & #1 WR(plus a probowl CB).

No DTs......no OL.....no RB.....no QB

 

As foundations to a strong team go that is pretty weak.

 

In the three following drafts/off-seasons it looks like.....fingers crossed.....we have

QB.....DT.....OL....RB.....MLB......SS.....CB(?).....

 

IMO TD failed at building a solid foundation of players.

[Steely Dan]

But was he reading TBD when Donahoe told complaining Bills fans to "save the postage," then whacked the letters-to-the-editor section out of Bills Digest?

 

I know I've posted it here before, but Chuck Pollock wrote the best summation I saw of the Donahoe era:

Bills had no choice but to let Donahue go

 

And here's two earlier columns, from before and after that Patriots game:

Bills, Mularkey having problems on, off field

Will attitude cost Bills coach, GM their jobs?

 

Pollock was here. Mort wasn't. Maybe someone should send him copies of these ...

 

He knew as the season melted down there was no way he could sell Donahoe’s return to a fan base that saw him as arrogant, overly sensitive to criticism and disingenuous.

 

Interesting I don't remember anyone talking about that when he was here.

 

Later that afternoon, Donahoe did an interview on WGR radio and vehemently denied that Vincent’s hit had any other purpose than merely playing his position.

 

The Bills’ chief executive had barely removed his headset when the show’s host, in effect, asked the listeners, “Do you believe him?”

 

Donahoe took understandable umbrage at the suggestion he was lying and that began his alienation from WGR which lasted to the day he left.

 

From then on, the sports talk station had no player interviews unless they were recorded in group media access situations and reportedly it wasn’t directly informed of press conferences or team news. As a result, WGR stepped up its criticism of the Bills, in general, and Donahoe in particular.

 

Well, that explains that then.

 

 

Depends on how one looks at it.....

Mort said....."and unwilling to acknoledge that even their success now is connected to the foundation Donohoe built"

The Foundation Donohoe built.

As I see it, we can ignore backups as they cannot be considered part of a teams foundation.

We can also ignore UFAs(Peters, Greer, Moorman) as these players not only(typically) take a long time to develop but again are not brought into the team expecting them to be part of the foundation.

We can also ignore the STers......unless a guy is HOF level game changing then again cannot be considered to be part of the foundation of a strong team.

 

That leaves us with....

Angelo Crowell - average starter

Terrance McGee - decent starter

Chris Kelsay - average starter

Aaron Schobel - Starter - (Pro-bowl twice)

Josh Reed - Starter

Lee Evans - Starter

Roscoe Parrish - average starter

 

In 5 drafts and 5 off-seasons.......in relation to a foundation......we were left with a probwol DE & #1 WR(plus a probowl CB).

No DTs......no OL.....no RB.....no QB

 

As foundations to a strong team go that is pretty weak.

 

In the three following drafts/off-seasons it looks like.....fingers crossed.....we have

QB.....DT.....OL....RB.....MLB......SS.....CB(?).....

 

IMO TD failed at building a solid foundation of players.

 

Good point. A few of those players will be gone next year when the Bills draft more depth. That is a better way of looking at it.

[drnykterstein]

lol, Coach Tuesday that was 500 units of awesome. You get all of them, spend them wisely.

[Bill from NYC]

Calling that an act of arrogance it totally absurd and a great way to look like a genius in hindsight. I'm certainly not going to go back and look up 5 year old posts and for all I know maybe you stated that prior to the pick. But there was clearly no consensus at the time to pick McKinnie over Williams. In fact from what I recall reading at time more people and media preferred Williams. McKinnie certainly hasn't done a whole lot to justify the #4 pick either as he would have been if picked by the Bill's. Certainly he's done much better than Williams, but he still would have been labeled a bust and I'd be shocked if he had been picked by the Bills, if he were still with the team.

 

As has been pointed out, the draft is a crap shoot in many ways. Actually if you want to look real smart, just right a post that every pick taken in the draft was a mistake and you'll be right more than you'll be wrong. Not trying to defend TD as he certainly didn't do a great job, but calling the pick of Williams arrogant is totally off base and typical of the behavior that Mort is calling Bill's fan out for. Not that I'm defending Mort either, but by calling the pick of Williams arrogant, he is correct in stating that many Bill's fans comments about TD are totally vindictive. This comment just proves his point!

 

My signature in those days was "Draft McKinnie." No clear consensus? McKinnie didn't give up one sack in college. He played LT and it was right around the time Fina was dumped. MW had a weight problem and a history of a bad ankle when he was drafted. That was evident. I suppose there was no way of knowing that he would get his bonus and not give a crap.

Find me a RT who was drafted that low in the history of the NFL if you will. There were a few OGs if you go back 30 years or so. John Hannah comes to mind, but no RTs that I can recall. How about you?

 

Perhaps arrogant was the wrong word to use describing that pick, or using our first selection (a 2nd Round pick) on Parrish, a gimmick player. Maybe it wasn't an act of arrogance to use a 1st, 2nd, and 5th on a qb when the team couldn't block, or to skip over Steinbach to draft a seriously injured MaGahee with a 1st Round pick.

Would you have taken it better if I called it egocentric stupidity?

[Bill from NYC]

I'd be shocked if either of them would be with the team had they turned out to be actually worthy of the #4 pick. On offensive tackle worth the #4 pick is likely playing LT and a 1st rate, All Pro LT, who was picked early in the 1st round would be gone to FA by now.

 

Are you shocked that Tarik Glenn played his entire career with the Colts? Or that Ogden, Jones and Pace were never signed as free agents?

Teams will not let go of great LTs. They will apply the Franchise Tag until the player gives in and sins long term. The only exception that comes to mind was Willie Roaf, and there were said to be some pretty bad personal issues that involved a teammate.

 

Btw, the guys who would seem to walk away the most would be defnsive backs, with 1st round Bills leading the parade.