I need to change your guys ways of thinking

[cantstopbeastmode]

I don't think you guys understand exactly why whitner/simpson aren't "playmakers."

 

So, let me explain...

 

Instead of bitching about whitner not being a playmaker, how about you try understanding exactly what our defense is trying to accomplish? In about 90% of our arizona/miami/chargers plays, we ran the simple cover 2 scheme, with the exception of corners playing about 8 yards off the ball, who knows why???. SAFETIES DEEP, 4 man rush, lbs cover middle zones, and corners cover the sidelines.

 

Now that I've explained that, it is easy for people to understand why whitner/simpson aren't making the big, ballhawking plays. Fewell/Jauron have decided at some point that they are best off telling donte/ko to just sit back there and be conservative SAFETIES. Fewell really uses that term literally.

 

As to the CBs, Fewell inexplicably tells them to get about 8 yards off the ball, and keep everything in front of them. In theory, it makes sense keeping everything in front of you, but not when teams take advantage of that literally all game long, like warner, rivers, and pennington did.

 

When we get no pass rush(which is every time we dont blitz), it forces everything to look easy, and it makes quarterbacking against us very easy, especially compared to teams like the giants. How could Warner have possibly thrown a pick to whitner? He had all day to pick apart our defense, and as a professional, thats what he did.

 

Now, pretty much every DB has taken some heat from you guys, with the exception of greer. Well, its not their individual problem that they arent making plays, it is the problem of the coaching ideas. If we sit in one play all game, then yeah, teams will pick us apart. Yeah, Leodis's coverage won't be amazing looking if hes sitting in a soft zone.

 

If you want McKelvin/Whitner to go and make big plays, then take it up with Fewell. Tell him to let our two TOP PICKS do their things. Let leodis get in man coverage, see what he can do. Let Whitner roam around a little more, and leave the deep ball a little more open. Look at what happened on Greer's INT, he followed his MAN across the field and made an individual play.

 

With all of that said, I completely disagree with Fewell's strategies, I actually think that they directly cost us the arizona game, almost cost us the san diego game, and in part cost us the Miami game. He really needs to grow a set of balls and trust our HIGHLY DRAFTED, TALENTED PLAYERS to make plays. Until he does that, smart qbs will pick us apart all game long.

 

BUT, don't start taking shots at the individual players for their "shortcomings." I'm sure it wouldn't take too long for whitner to get a pick if he played on the giants or the packers, or for mckelvin to get one playing on the chargers. But, they play for the bills, where we run the same unsuccessful play all game long.

 

And just to make it clear, we still can improve, I'm not one of those people saying we'll be 5-11. We really should rock the jets this week, but we do need to fix the problems I mentioned above.

 

By the way, if your main memories of whitner are chasing higgins and ginn, then you must edit out all the tackles he's made when you're watching your film. He has more important tackles than anyone on our defense, outside of paul. So turn the tape back on and watch the games, and get back to me.

 

Whitner can play, don't doubt that whatsoever. He's every bit as important to this defense as paul or anyone else.

Thoughts?

[deep2evans]

I get what you're saying, and agree with you, but good luck "changing" the others guys minds. This place is home to some of the most wishy-washy bandwagon jumping fans I've ever seen, so until next week, it's all Whitner's fault.

[GripnRip]

Honestly the only DB we have that has the physical ability to play like you describe is McKelvin. This defense is built completely for the cover 2. We have excellent tacklers in our secondary but no playmakers, it's by design.

 

We're not getting beat on defense at all (16 points is not enough in this division). Why would we change a scheme that is working very well?

[The Dean]

I don't think you guys understand exactly why whitner/simpson aren't "playmakers."

 

 

I agree with most of what you wrote, here. Thank goodness someone attempts to actually understand the system, and what players are assignments are, before ragging on them for not doing what players, on other teams w/different assignments, manage to do.

 

One thing is fairly clear, on this defense. Fewell moves Whitner around to shore up the weakness of any given personnel package on the field, at that time. In effect, the team is maximizing Whitner's solidness (relying on the fact that he does most things pretty well) instead of maximizing any one talent to turn him into a disruptive force. Most of those whose opinions I respect, who have some knowledge believe that, if played differently in the D, Whitner could be a very disruptive force. The Bills coaches have even stated that how they use Whitner negatively impacts his stats.

 

One thing is for sure, Whitner makes a lot of "quiet" big plays. He regularly stops plays from turning into big gains and just his presence in coverage seems to discourage attempts, as he is rarely the DB on the ass end of a big pass play. (Notice I didn't say "never", all DBs get burnt, from time to time. But, in his three years in Buffalo, you can probably count the number of big plays he is responsible for giving up, on one hand.)

[Dr. Fong]

Which is why I wanted the Bills to go DE in this draft instead of CB. A pass rush makes DBs look all world.

[The Dean]

Which is why I wanted the Bills to go DE in this draft instead of CB. A pass rush makes DBs look all world.

 

 

The Bills have put together a very nice group of young DBs. Even if they loose Greer, I think they are, mostly, set at DB. But, that wouldn't be true without McKelvin. They need to have him around for a year, before he can be relied on, every week, IMO. They need to increase the pressure on the QBs (though personnel or scheme changes) and increase the pressure by DBs on receivers, too, IMO. As long as they win with the passive approach, I won't complain, but they should have aggressive options to use, when needed. That seems to be lacking, right now.

[Dr. Fong]

The Bills have put together a very nice group of young DBs. Even if they loose Greer, I think they are, mostly, set at DB. But, that wouldn't be true without McKelvin. They need to have him around for a year, before he can be relied on, every week, IMO. They need to increase the pressure on the QBs (though personnel or scheme changes) and increase the pressure by DBs on receivers, too, IMO. As long as they win with the passive approach, I won't complain, but they should have aggressive options to use, when needed. That seems to be lacking, right now.

 

 

I don't have a problem with McKelvin as a player. He has shown some flashes of being a contributor. I just think the most basic thing that a good defense needs is a good defensive line. You can never have too many good lineman. Sorry to dredge up this old argument, but it's just a difference in approach and in MY opinion the Bills have been going about it ass-backwards for a number of years now. Thank God they got Stroud. Without him it'd be a real disaster out there.

[The Dean]

I don't have a problem with McKelvin as a player. He has shown some flashes of being a contributor. I just think the most basic thing that a good defense needs is a good defensive line. You can never have too many good lineman. Sorry to dredge up this old argument, but it's just a difference in approach and in MY opinion that Bills have been going about it ass-backwards for a number of years now. Thank God they got Stroud. Without him it'd be a real disaster out there.

 

 

I think you'll see more DL, LB and OL get added this offseason. Will it be through the draft, FA or trade? Dunno, and don't really care, as long as they get the job done.

[BLZFAN4LIFE]

The Bills have put together a very nice group of young DBs. Even if they loose Greer, I think they are, mostly, set at DB. But, that wouldn't be true without McKelvin. They need to have him around for a year, before he can be relied on, every week, IMO. They need to increase the pressure on the QBs (though personnel or scheme changes) and increase the pressure by DBs on receivers, too, IMO. As long as they win with the passive approach, I won't complain, but they should have aggressive options to use, when needed. That seems to be lacking, right now.

 

These are comments that I can agree with. The Bills have invested a lot in terms of early draft picks in their secondary. This is Jauron's area of expertise. It's time to stop playing so damn conservative all of the time, and let your play makers impact the game. If all you want out of your db's is to line up 8 yards off of the LOS and backpedal on the snap, then any 5th-7th rounder will do.

[Dr. Fong]

I think you'll see more DL, LB and OL get added this offseason. Will it be through the draft, FA or trade? Dunno, and don't really care, as long as they get the job done.

 

 

I hope you're right. I'm getting a bit tired of waiting for next year every year. I'm not giving up on this season yet, but I see some troubling signs of things to come.

[BLZFAN4LIFE]

I hope you're right. I'm getting a bit tired of waiting for next year every year. I'm not giving up on this season yet, but I see some troubling signs of things to come.

I'm definitely not giving up either. Hopefully ANOTHER wake up call will do this team good. However 2 losses in 3 games, one to the Miami Dolphins who gutted their roster last season and are in the infancy of a rebuilding process is disgusting. The Jets have way more talent than the Fins. Home cooking better be what the doctor ordered for the Bills because I don't even want to consider losing 3 of 4.

[Blastfromthepast]

True about the jets but then again its been really easy to harras Farve compared to Pennington....so therefore maybe even our mediocre line might be able to do something

[Thurman#1]

The Tampa Two does NOT eliminate the possibility of INTs. That's just a justification.

 

They call it the Tampa Two for a reason, the Bucs run it. Some quick stats for one Buc+

 

Jermaine Phillips (SS) INTs the last three seasons as he started playing full-time:

 

2006 2 INTs

2007 4 INTs

2008 1 INT (so far)

 

 

Do you really think Fewell says "Listen, when you choose the depth to play at, choose a depth which will insure that on deep passes you will arrive too late to make any INTs, OK?"

[YOOOOOO]

The Tampa Two does NOT eliminate the possibility of INTs. That's just a justification.

 

They call it the Tampa Two for a reason, the Bucs run it. Some quick stats for one Buc+

 

Jermaine Phillips (SS) INTs the last three seasons as he started playing full-time:

 

2006 2 INTs

2007 4 INTs

2008 1 INT (so far)

 

 

Do you really think Fewell says "Listen, when you choose the depth to play at, choose a depth which will insure that on deep passes you will arrive too late to make any INTs, OK?"

 

 

 

 

No thats not it.....when your a safety that has trouble covering your zone responsibility....QB's will take more chances attacking your zone....meaning you have more chances at INT's & PD's....

 

Whitner never NEVER gets picked on...infact he doesnt get more then a couple of throws come his way....and when he does...it always comes underneath in a vacated LB Zone Area(ex. Higgins TD)....

[Bill from NYC]

The Bills have put together a very nice group of young DBs. Even if they loose Greer, I think they are, mostly, set at DB. But, that wouldn't be true without McKelvin.

 

How can we be sure of this Dean-o? I fail to see the absolute mandate to chase first round dbs. We could have taken a corner in another round (which we did twice anyway), and perhaps took a good player at another position with a #11. Why did it have to be a corner?

 

The problem is making the "secondary" the "primary" goal. Doing so directly coincided with the Bills turning into a losing team. Perhaps I am thick headed, but I don't even see how this issue is debateable.

[Dibs]

No thats not it.....when your a safety that has trouble covering your zone responsibility....QB's will take more chances attacking your zone....meaning you have more chances at INT's & PD's....

 

Whitner never NEVER gets picked on...infact he doesnt get more then a couple of throws come his way....and when he does...it always comes underneath in a vacated LB Zone Area(ex. Higgins TD)....

Oh stop it YOOOOOO......with all your logic and knowledgeable analysis.......you just don't seem to understand that until DW gets a chunk of INTs & PDs he is at best an average player. Best we cut our loses & cut him next off season.

[Shanahan's Horseshoe]

I don't think you guys understand exactly why whitner/simpson aren't "playmakers."

 

So, let me explain...

 

Instead of bitching about whitner not being a playmaker, how about you try understanding exactly what our defense is trying to accomplish? In about 90% of our arizona/miami/chargers plays, we ran the simple cover 2 scheme, with the exception of corners playing about 8 yards off the ball, who knows why???. SAFETIES DEEP, 4 man rush, lbs cover middle zones, and corners cover the sidelines.

Now that I've explained that, it is easy for people to understand why whitner/simpson aren't making the big, ballhawking plays. Fewell/Jauron have decided at some point that they are best off telling donte/ko to just sit back there and be conservative SAFETIES. Fewell really uses that term literally.

 

As to the CBs, Fewell inexplicably tells them to get about 8 yards off the ball, and keep everything in front of them. In theory, it makes sense keeping everything in front of you, but not when teams take advantage of that literally all game long, like warner, rivers, and pennington did.

 

When we get no pass rush(which is every time we dont blitz), it forces everything to look easy, and it makes quarterbacking against us very easy, especially compared to teams like the giants. How could Warner have possibly thrown a pick to whitner? He had all day to pick apart our defense, and as a professional, thats what he did.

 

Now, pretty much every DB has taken some heat from you guys, with the exception of greer. Well, its not their individual problem that they arent making plays, it is the problem of the coaching ideas. If we sit in one play all game, then yeah, teams will pick us apart. Yeah, Leodis's coverage won't be amazing looking if hes sitting in a soft zone.

 

If you want McKelvin/Whitner to go and make big plays, then take it up with Fewell. Tell him to let our two TOP PICKS do their things. Let leodis get in man coverage, see what he can do. Let Whitner roam around a little more, and leave the deep ball a little more open. Look at what happened on Greer's INT, he followed his MAN across the field and made an individual play.

 

With all of that said, I completely disagree with Fewell's strategies, I actually think that they directly cost us the arizona game, almost cost us the san diego game, and in part cost us the Miami game. He really needs to grow a set of balls and trust our HIGHLY DRAFTED, TALENTED PLAYERS to make plays. Until he does that, smart qbs will pick us apart all game long.

 

BUT, don't start taking shots at the individual players for their "shortcomings." I'm sure it wouldn't take too long for whitner to get a pick if he played on the giants or the packers, or for mckelvin to get one playing on the chargers. But, they play for the bills, where we run the same unsuccessful play all game long.

 

And just to make it clear, we still can improve, I'm not one of those people saying we'll be 5-11. We really should rock the jets this week, but we do need to fix the problems I mentioned above.

 

By the way, if your main memories of whitner are chasing higgins and ginn, then you must edit out all the tackles he's made when you're watching your film. He has more important tackles than anyone on our defense, outside of paul. So turn the tape back on and watch the games, and get back to me.

 

Whitner can play, don't doubt that whatsoever. He's every bit as important to this defense as paul or anyone else.

Thoughts?

I just wrote about this on another thread but I guess I will tell you that your wrong on your own post and this had nothig to do with Donte.

 

Do we run a Cover 2 Scheme? Yes, but it our BASE DEFENSE! That does not mean we run the same scheme on every play or in every game. The truth is, we probably run a C2 about 50% of the time. We play a ton of man coverage mixed in with different zone coverages. (Cover 3, quarters)

 

Now, onto the Cardinals game. We barely palyed any C2!!!! PF said so himself! We played a ton of deep zone (C3 and Qters) to protect Mckelvin. If we were in a C2 we would have not been beat underneath on every play. Warner was getting the ball to his guys underneath the coverage at about 3-7 yards and letting them run in space (see the Ohio ST. v Florida National Championship game). THERE IS NO SPACE UNDERNEATH IN A C2! The Lb's and Cb's are in short zones!

 

As for the Miami game, I would bet we played C2 less than half of the time. B Scott was up near the LOS all day! TGJR was beating TM in man under coverage (Saftey over the top, man underneath) , if we were in a T2, TM is rolled up and the passes are not completed! And please explain this to me, how do you defend against the Wildcat playing a C2 defense? YOU DONT! Our LB's were playing at the LOS, corners moved up and safties were either blitzing or very shallow. You dont beat the Wildcat playing in a base 7 because you cannot account for all of the possabilities.

Before you try to lecture everybody on the defense, at least know what your talking about. Dont you think the Bills would be really easy to gameplan against if they played the base D all of the time?

And remember, John Lynch, Bob Sanders and Mike Brown have all been Pro Bowlers in this style of defense...so there is oppurtunity for plays to be made.

[ChasBB]

Agree with original post. Fewell is coaching scared. Even when Greer made that pick and took it back for a TD, anyone notice how ridiculously deep he was when he caught that errant pass?! I think the talent base is there, but the coaching is still lacking. Doesn't matter if it's offense or defense, when you coach "not to lose", that's what happens -- especially during the BIG games. The fact that the Bills are 5-2 is more a statement of the quality of their players I think (and the intelligence of Edwards) than it is a statement about the quality of the coaching.

[ChasBB]

I just wrote about this on another thread but I guess I will tell you that your wrong on your own post and this had nothig to do with Donte.

 

Do we run a Cover 2 Scheme? Yes, but it our BASE DEFENSE! That does not mean we run the same scheme on every play or in every game. The truth is, we probably run a C2 about 50% of the time. We play a ton of man coverage mixed in with different zone coverages. (Cover 3, quarters)

 

Now, onto the Cardinals game. We barely palyed any C2!!!! PF said so himself! We played a ton of deep zone (C3 and Qters) to protect Mckelvin. If we were in a C2 we would have not been beat underneath on every play. Warner was getting the ball to his guys underneath the coverage at about 3-7 yards and letting them run in space (see the Ohio ST. v Florida National Championship game). THERE IS NO SPACE UNDERNEATH IN A C2! The Lb's and Cb's are in short zones!

 

As for the Miami game, I would bet we played C2 less than half of the time. B Scott was up near the LOS all day! TGJR was beating TM in man under coverage (Saftey over the top, man underneath) , if we were in a T2, TM is rolled up and the passes are not completed! And please explain this to me, how do you defend against the Wildcat playing a C2 defense? YOU DONT! Our LB's were playing at the LOS, corners moved up and safties were either blitzing or very shallow. You dont beat the Wildcat playing in a base 7 because you cannot account for all of the possabilities.

Before you try to lecture everybody on the defense, at least know what your talking about. Dont you think the Bills would be really easy to gameplan against if they played the base D all of the time?

And remember, John Lynch, Bob Sanders and Mike Brown have all been Pro Bowlers in this style of defense...so there is oppurtunity for plays to be made.

You make good and interesting points. What would be your suggestions on what the Bills could/should do differently?

[keepthefaith]

I don't think you guys understand exactly why whitner/simpson aren't "playmakers."

 

So, let me explain...

 

Instead of bitching about whitner not being a playmaker, how about you try understanding exactly what our defense is trying to accomplish? In about 90% of our arizona/miami/chargers plays, we ran the simple cover 2 scheme, with the exception of corners playing about 8 yards off the ball, who knows why???. SAFETIES DEEP, 4 man rush, lbs cover middle zones, and corners cover the sidelines.

 

Now that I've explained that, it is easy for people to understand why whitner/simpson aren't making the big, ballhawking plays. Fewell/Jauron have decided at some point that they are best off telling donte/ko to just sit back there and be conservative SAFETIES. Fewell really uses that term literally.

 

As to the CBs, Fewell inexplicably tells them to get about 8 yards off the ball, and keep everything in front of them. In theory, it makes sense keeping everything in front of you, but not when teams take advantage of that literally all game long, like warner, rivers, and pennington did.

 

When we get no pass rush(which is every time we dont blitz), it forces everything to look easy, and it makes quarterbacking against us very easy, especially compared to teams like the giants. How could Warner have possibly thrown a pick to whitner? He had all day to pick apart our defense, and as a professional, thats what he did.

 

Now, pretty much every DB has taken some heat from you guys, with the exception of greer. Well, its not their individual problem that they arent making plays, it is the problem of the coaching ideas. If we sit in one play all game, then yeah, teams will pick us apart. Yeah, Leodis's coverage won't be amazing looking if hes sitting in a soft zone.

 

If you want McKelvin/Whitner to go and make big plays, then take it up with Fewell. Tell him to let our two TOP PICKS do their things. Let leodis get in man coverage, see what he can do. Let Whitner roam around a little more, and leave the deep ball a little more open. Look at what happened on Greer's INT, he followed his MAN across the field and made an individual play.

 

With all of that said, I completely disagree with Fewell's strategies, I actually think that they directly cost us the arizona game, almost cost us the san diego game, and in part cost us the Miami game. He really needs to grow a set of balls and trust our HIGHLY DRAFTED, TALENTED PLAYERS to make plays. Until he does that, smart qbs will pick us apart all game long.

 

BUT, don't start taking shots at the individual players for their "shortcomings." I'm sure it wouldn't take too long for whitner to get a pick if he played on the giants or the packers, or for mckelvin to get one playing on the chargers. But, they play for the bills, where we run the same unsuccessful play all game long.

 

And just to make it clear, we still can improve, I'm not one of those people saying we'll be 5-11. We really should rock the jets this week, but we do need to fix the problems I mentioned above.

 

By the way, if your main memories of whitner are chasing higgins and ginn, then you must edit out all the tackles he's made when you're watching your film. He has more important tackles than anyone on our defense, outside of paul. So turn the tape back on and watch the games, and get back to me.

 

Whitner can play, don't doubt that whatsoever. He's every bit as important to this defense as paul or anyone else.

Thoughts?

 

 

Good info here. Fewell is not the problem. It has to be Jauron. If Jauron didn't agree with Fewell's strategies, he would certainly tell him to change it. Particularly for the defense since Jauron's coaching experience is mostly on the defensive side of the ball.

 

The Bills IMO gave the Dolphins "O" far too much respect yesterday. The only way Pennington beats a team is by playing the short game. He's done that most of his career. He's not a QB that will beat you deep. So what do the Bills do? Gave him exactly what he wanted. Gave him the short stuff all day. Rushed more than 4 guys very sparingly. The cover 2 depends upon a good pash rush from the front 4, BUT when you aren't getting pressure from the front 4, there has to be a plan ""B". Plan "B" probably didn't get used as the Bills were winning the game until late. You wonder if the Bills were behind at the half whether or not any change in approach would have been used.

 

Jauron is a very polite man who deploys a polite game plan. It's a "we'll take what you give us and we'll give you a little bit" approach. He has never expressed publically to my knowledge a desire or intent to dominate the opponent. Too risky for this coach. Time will tell if he is able to direct and lead a team to a playoff victory. Certainly the Bills are in a very good position this year to gain a playoff birth. How they respond to this loss both as coaches and players is what matters most.