The end of the "we reached for Whitner" argument.

[The Dean]

Since you won't address the Charges game and why they put Scott over Whitner I know I'm not the one who needs simplification. Whitner is a fantastic tackler in the run game, I'm not impressed with his tackling in the passing game as he always plays in "prevent" and then tries to destroy the guy. The guy is good taking angles with the opposition coming up-field, but I've yet to see him do anything in the passing game that stops a big play unless he is ahead of them.

 

 

Not at all. Most INTs that are done because of athleticism are usually when they read the eyes of the QB and jump the route. Dante DID do that in his first season once, and almost did it again in the same game. He has yet to do that again. His other INTs are from over-throws and he was in position. Those are lucky, but they do count and players should get credit.

 

 

 

Then explain Gates for me and why they put in Scott over Whitner. Who is more important to the Charges offense: Nickel or SS? Case closed, Gates is the most important person when Chambers is out.

 

 

 

Assumptions are worthless as most of the INTs were bad passes picked off by overthrows to Wilson, or by LBs who were in their zones in passing lanes.

 

 

 

I watched the clips and Whitner gives a cushion. I doubt he could do what Crowell did. Crowell averages more INTs and PDs than Whitner does.

 

 

 

Whitner was brought in to stop the new Os of today who pass to run right? It shows a couple of things, first he isn't used in that role because he can't do it, and when he is used he isn't effective.

 

 

Did it occur to you he lacks ball instincts? He has great tackle instincts, and may be top 3 in run defense as a strong safety.

 

 

 

Let me make easy for you:

Would you say that Roy Williams is good in pass coverage if he only averaged 1 INT and 1 PD? (Williams sucks but outshines Whitner in this regard)

How about Polamalu would he be considered good in coverage?

 

Compare the stats. Anyone considered decent in coverage has a minimum of 2 INTs a year and 8 PDs.

 

 

 

Until Whitner is used on the D line and used in the secondary PDs and INTs are a measure to show they are good on pass defense. The coaches have shown me they don't trust him enough to use him against Gates or Witten.

 

 

 

It's not a Crusade. I don't start threads, but I respond to homerism. Being considered for Pro Bowl by the fans isn't the same as him being good in coverage. I've noticed when he's passed on all the time. I can see you don't.

 

 

Most of your post is pure drivel, and I can't have an intelligent football conversation that really believes that INTs and PDs are the only way to judge a SS in the NFL.

 

I will address the only legitimate question you asked (but one you should have been able to figure out the answer for yourself, if you paid attention).

 

The Bills played Scott against Gates not because Whitner couldn't do the job, but because they needed Whitner to do another job no healthy player on the Bills' roster was capable of doing, at a high enough level, last week. They figured (and hoped and prayed) that Scott could do a reasonable job on Gates, because he is big and physical. At the same time, they had to make up for the loss of McKelvin, Youboty and Simpson (at full strength). As Whitner is a Swiss-Army DB, he is capable of handling multiple/changing assignments throughout the game, and delivering at a very high level.

 

It is really very simple. And, it was quite effective.

 

I will let others go back and forth with your nonsense, if they care to, but I will dispense with you now. You have made it clear, in multiple threads, and on a number of different Bills'-related topics, that you simply are a troll. Even your user name suggests your purpose here.

 

Even if you don't think you are a troll, it is clear that you can't have a football conversation at a high level. You bring nothing to the conversation, and continually distort/misrepresent the facts, and focus on minutia to try to "win a point", instead of simply allowing the discussion to evolve. I'm thinking you may be related to Holcomb's Arm. (You should dig up the statistical "arguments" he had with DC Tom and others. You will probably enjoy his particular brand of obtuseness.)

[BADOLBILZ]

Traditionally is the key word here. Many fans have not caught up with the concept that Safety has become a very important and sought after position......therefore they are being drafted higher than they used to be......and are often drafted inside the top 10.

 

Over the last 7 drafts, the top 10 picks breaks down like this.....

QB 11

WR 10

OT 9

DE 9

DT 7

S 6

RB 6

CB 6

LB 4

TE 2

 

It is definitely trendy to pick a safety that high, but the results of those picks haven't really proven it to be a way to maximize value of that pick to your team. The intent is to find the next Bob Sanders or Ed Reed, but those guys weren't chosen in that top half of round 1. Bypassing a good lineman that is sorely needed in favor of a good safety is pretty questionable.

[BADOLBILZ]

The linebackers have also made a lot of plays which if they had missed, would have been big gains. Also the DLs. That's the nature of this fill the gaps style D. Are you really saying that making the tackles that a guy playing that position is expected to make qualifies a guy as a #8 draft pick, because I just don't think too many people are going to agree with you there.

 

Also, Whitner's versatility is great, but not that far out of the ordinary. Remember Troy Vincent? Should we have valued him as a #8 pick value when he played with us? He went from CB to safety. Versatility. The fact is that certain positions, particularly secondary, OL and LB are often able to switch roles within that group of positions. Do we say, hey, our RT can also play RG and C in an emergency. He must have been worth a #8. And our MLB could play on each side in a pinch. Secondary is the same way. Lots of DBs play various positions in an emergency. It's great. But doesn't move their value up to #8.

 

Yeah, I don't buy the versatility angle either. But as far as what Whitner is doing this year, I'm not talking about filling gaps and making routine tackles. He's made a number of plays that would have been out of the grasp of pretty much any safety the Bills have had in quite a while. Plays you are used to seeing by the likes of Sanders or Polomalu. But at this point, certainly not nearly as many. He's probably not going to be the NFL's defensive MVP anytime soon, but he's real good.

[Stenbar]

Yeah, I don't buy the versatility angle either. But as far as what Whitner is doing this year, I'm not talking about filling gaps and making routine tackles. He's made a number of plays that would have been out of the grasp of pretty much any safety the Bills have had in quite a while. Plays you are used to seeing by the likes of Sanders or Polomalu. But at this point, certainly not nearly as many. He's probably not going to be the NFL's defensive MVP anytime soon, but he's real good.

I think he is the 3rd best in the AFC..Behind Polomalu and Sanders...I keep waiting for the big play but he definately makes all the suppose to plays

[BB2004]

Why? My argument is based on the fact that the 7 teams in front of us could've picked Whitner and didn't = we stole from them.

 

But, for the sake of argument let's look at the next 7....

 

9 Detroit Lions Ernie Sims Linebacker

10 Arizona Cardinals Matt Leinart Quarterback

11 Denver Broncos (from St. Louis Rams) Jay Cutler Quarterback

12 Baltimore Ravens (from Cleveland Browns) Haloti Ngata Defensive tackle

13 Cleveland Browns (from Baltimore) Kamerion Wimbley Defensive end/Linebacker

14 Philadelphia Eagles Brodrick Bunkley Defensive tackle

15 St. Louis Rams (from Atlanta Falcons via Denver) Tye Hill

 

Sims? Meh. Lineart? Almost Bust. Cutler? We'll see, but no way he is as good a leader, and he's a friggin QB? Plus he can't keep his mouth shut("I have a stronger arm than Elway" ), plus he looked terrible against us and last game. Ngata? This is the only real argument, but when you have a NOW top 4 player on the board, you take him, regardless of position. Wimbley? I have no idea who he is or what he is doing, and that can't be good. Bunkley? Bust. Hill? Bust.

 

So, no, really no friggin way in hell are any of those guys better overall players than Whitner. None of them has had the net positive effect overall that he has, and most of them have done a hell of a lot worse.

 

It was a really good pick by the organization. Overall, I really like the fact that we got Donte Whitner.

[Dibs]

..........I just want to say he was not a top 10 safety at the time of the draft, and to say otherwise requires hindsight.......

He was to the Bills.....and they were right. There was most likely several other teams who had him in the top 10 as well.

Any team that goes with the consensus media opinions of who is a top 10 player & who isn't is bound for failure. As a fan of the Bills, I want them to draft the players that they determine have the best chance......not the media.

That same draft Winston Justice dropped massively......this would mean he was a steal, yes?

Mike Williams was generally considered(on draft day) to be the best OT prospect.

The media was stunned when Edgerin James was taken ahead of Ricky Williams.

Donnie Avery was considered to be a surprise pick as the first WR to be selected being generally ranked 5th-6th best.....looks like a good choice now.

 

As for N'Gata.....obviously the Bills had concerns about him. Either that or simply had DW as the better prospect. Assuming he is the better player......that is something that comes about with hindsight. On draft day there is no hindsight & every top 10 pick are the players chosen in the top 10.

[The Dean]

He was to the Bills.....and they were right. There was most likely several other teams who had him in the top 10 as well.

Any team that goes with the consensus media opinions of who is a top 10 player & who isn't is bound for failure. As a fan of the Bills, I want them to draft the players that they determine have the best chance......not the media.

That same draft Winston Justice dropped massively......this would mean he was a steal, yes?

Mike Williams was generally considered(on draft day) to be the best OT prospect.

The media was stunned when Edgerin James was taken ahead of Ricky Williams.

Donnie Avery was considered to be a surprise pick as the first WR to be selected being generally ranked 5th-6th best.....looks like a good choice now.

 

As for N'Gata.....obviously the Bills had concerns about him. Either that or simply had DW as the better prospect. Assuming he is the better player......that is something that comes about with hindsight. On draft day there is no hindsight & every top 10 pick are the players chosen in the top 10.

 

 

Donnie Avery is under 6' tall. Obviously, he can't be a very good WR in the NFL.

[cåblelady]

Oh jeez, I don't know. Why don't we start with: Whitner playing 3 different positions this Sunday, FS, CB, NB, none of which are his normal spot, with Youboty and McGee on the bench, while the bills hold the Bolts to 100 less yards passing than they average per game. So I guess McKelvin was the reason they didn't get so many passes, right?

 

I was at the game, I didn't miss a snap, and I am telling you McKelvin was picked on most of the game. In fact, he's the reason they got as many passing yards as they did. Don't get me wrong, he was awful close, but not close enough.

 

I answered your question, now answer mine: How the hell has Whitner, playing three different positions, and making plays all over the field at them, NOT helped in the passing game?

 

Again, it's back to 1985 for you, huh? You and Mike Ditka would be best buds, you could go out together wearing your parachute pants and listening to REO Speedwagon.

 

Then you haven't watched the Wildcat at all apparently. Almost all of the runs, most of the TD runs, that came out of the formation were designed(there was one that was bounced outside because they fed up the play) to go a or b gap = right where the DTs are. Few were to the outside. The whole point of it is to take advantage of a fat DT moving the wrong way or attempting to hold his ground, by adding another blocker to misdirect him or pull and nail him/trap him, or the LB he is trying to protect. Instead of the D having an extra guy(because the QB is there) it's all even up at the LOS. The secondary point of it is to ignore the DEs, or neutralize their pass rush and/or speed, because everything is misdirected outside and then run inside.

 

Oh, and Miami used it quite effectively against the Bolts DTs, who are widely regarded as excellent, and who play in a 4-3. You might want to go over to NFL.com and watch the film, it's fairly well done.

 

I already have on multiple occasions. You still have yet to explain how a team that passes for 300 yards, scores 30 a game, and routinely takes it to other teams via the pass = the Bolts, was held to 191 passing yards with two of our starters on the bench. I know, it was all McKelvin Dude, read the article I posted already. Whitner was all over the field, and he is the MAIN reason they didn't get anywhere near their averages in the passing game. The other reason was Mitchell.

 

All of those guys were nowhere near Whitner starting their 3rd season, so cut the crap. And, all those guys play in Zone-Blitz schemes, which means that the SS has a lot more freedom to cherry pick, and to blitz, because everybody else is taking most of the primary responsibility. In our D, Whitner is primarily responsible for a lot more than they are, so he doesn't get to take as many chances. The simple fact is that Polamalu gets to run around free because he's hardly ever responsible for coverage, or for the run game. Whitner is responsible for both. And, those teams have all had superior LBs to us except for this year, so it's hardly a fair comparison. You give Whitner the free reign that those guys have, and the LB corps, and he easily gets the same stats they do.

 

But that's the whole point. Stats aren't the game, big plays on third down, or, as has been said above, stopping a decent play before it turns into a gash or a TD are stats that are just as important, but less "glamorous", I guess.

I think I love you.

[Dibs]

It is definitely trendy to pick a safety that high, but the results of those picks haven't really proven it to be a way to maximize value of that pick to your team. The intent is to find the next Bob Sanders or Ed Reed, but those guys weren't chosen in that top half of round 1. Bypassing a good lineman that is sorely needed in favor of a good safety is pretty questionable.

The intent will vary depending upon the draft position....the players available....and the teams situation that is drafting. From such a high pick, teams obviously want a 'star' from the pick......though since many high prospects bust out, ending up with a very good solid player would still be considered a successful pick(just not a great one).

If the intent is to find the next Sanders or Reed.....then the intent would also be to find the next Pace or Jason Taylor from your linemen.....

 

The results....it's a bit too early to tell since the numbers are from the last 7 drafts.

Looking at 2002-2004......giving players at least 4 season to show something special.....

All of the safeties chosen have been in the 6-10 range of the top 10 so I have deleted top 3 selections from the list.

 

Red is Bust

Bold is probowler.....number in brackets

 

Safeties

Sean Taylor(2)

Roy Williams(5)

 

Linemen

Mike Williams

Ryan Sims

Bryant McKinnie

John Henderson(2)

Levi Jones

Dewayne Robertson

Johnathan Sullivan

Jordan Gross

Kevin Williams(3)

Terrell Suggs(2)

[Thurman#1]

I'm not dissing Ngata, as i think he is a very good player...but, don't you think the fact that even Bannan looks good in that D suggest that it is the entire D that is good on that team, and that players are likely to look better on D there, than they would on other teams? That D was great before Ngata got there. I wouldn't give him the bulk of the credit for how the other guys are playing there.

 

 

 

Actually, the Ravens D had an off year about three years ago, if you will remember, and then bounced back the next year to become excellent again. The main difference between that bad year and the excellent one that followed? Ngata's presence as a rookie. Ngata is making RayRay and the rest look much better than they looked without him. The guy is terrific.

[JimmyPage]

You might as well be still arguing that The Surge didn't work. It's time to deal with the reality that The Surge did work and drafting Donte Whitner at 8 in 2006 was not only not a reach, it's lining up to be a steal.

 

Let's start with this right here. A "great" player makes those around him better. How about a player that can replace those around him due to matchup or injury and improve the play at that position? Strike one.

 

Let's look at who was drafted ahead of Whitner:

1 Houston Texans Mario Williams Defensive end

2 New Orleans Saints Reggie Bush Running back

3 Tennessee Titans Vince Young Quarterback

4 New York Jets D'Brickashaw Ferguson Offensive tackle

5 Green Bay Packers A. J. Hawk Linebacker

6 San Francisco 49ers Vernon Davis Tight end

7 Oakland Raiders Michael Huff Safety

 

Who of the above is a better leader than Whitner? Who is, pound for pound, playing better at their position? Who is having a better effect on the players around them? Who can step in and play 3 other positions on the field? Strike two.

 

Hawk, Davis, and Huff? It's not even a debate. I can see Ferguson, maybe, but Whitner's intangibles and versatility means he wins. Young? Please. Reggie Bush is starting to look like a 3rd down scat back. Marshawn has the same # of TDs, and 100 more yards on the ground. Mario Williams I can see, but again, he loses in terms of the overall player.

 

Ferguson, Williams and even Bush are debatable, but even if you throw them in we still got the 4th best guy in the draft at the #8 slot, and that is a steal any way you cut it. 4 spots in the top ten = (to move from 8 to 4) costs you a #18 2nd round draft pick, or 2 #14 3rd round picks. Draft value chart here So, like I said, Whitner is an absolute steal.

 

Finally, the other players ahead of Whitner have all probably peaked. They are what they are and they are as good as they are going to get. They average safety doesn't really hit their stride until 5-6 years in the league, and that means Whitner is only going to get better. I'm sure Vince Young is going to make a big comeback... Strike three.

 

3 strikes you're out. Here endeth the argument. Deal with it. And for those of you still trying to talk about Ferguson, please explain how the hell we were supposed to do a deal with a division rival over the guy they wanted.

 

It's over. Be happy we didn't listen to you, and be happy that Marv Levy was running this team.

You are looking at this wrong.

You need to look at who was drafted AFTER Whitner.

 

The Bills had a choice of Whitner or anyone drafter AFTER Whitner!

 

You need to redo your entire post for it to make any sense.

Right off the bat you can Look at JAY CUTLER.

 

How many NFL scouts or GMs would say that Whitney has more value than Cutler?

 

Also you said that whitner was the 4th best player in that draft?

Are you serious?

There are only 3 players from that draft better than Whitner?

Must have been one very very weak draft.