The end of the "we reached for Whitner" argument.

[silvermike]

I'm amazed a linebacker goes in the top ten only every other year or so.

[Thurman#1]

And if this was 1985 I would agree with you. But it's not, is it? Since it's not 1985 and this league isn't dominated by the Bears and Giants running the ball 65% of the time, scores of 9 to 6, running for 4 yards a carry is a big deal, etc., boring-ass football, your argument falls apart.

 

It's 2008 and that means:

1. This league passes the ball 65% of the time.

2. Your safety is your only hope in a Cover 2 of stopping the run, consistently, just look at the Colts with vs. without Bob Sanders.

3. The run is set up by the pass, not the other way around. Look at all the draws, and misdirection running plays this year. I have never seen as many as this year. Every single one of them set up by the pass.

4. Why do you think Miami's wildcat stuff was working so well? It makes big, fat, DTs who can't move irrelevant. This is a copy cat league, and the fat kids have been exposed. Next year everyone will be using that stuff, and it will be the SS, not the DT, whose job it is to stop it.

 

Where in the heck do you get the idea that Whitner can't cover? Did you bother to read the article? We held the Bolts to 191 net passing yards, 100 less than average, and half of what they normally score. If Whitner "couldn't cover", how the hell did that happen? Magic?

 

 

Big fat DTs are no use in the Tampa 2. However, Ngata is huge, not fat, and quick as hell. In our system, he would be stopping the run but also pressuring the QB. He has that capability. And guys who can do both are rare, which is why our defense looks entirely new with Stroud in there.

[Thurman#1]

Yeah, he's been doing that all season. He hasn't caused turnovers so it can be easy to overlook, but he's prevented a number of big plays and killed many drives that might have changed the outcome of some close games. He's having a really good season, I hope he gets his hands on the football a little more so he doesn't get overlooked for Pro Bowl consideration.

 

 

 

The linebackers have also made a lot of plays which if they had missed, would have been big gains. Also the DLs. That's the nature of this fill the gaps style D. Are you really saying that making the tackles that a guy playing that position is expected to make qualifies a guy as a #8 draft pick, because I just don't think too many people are going to agree with you there.

 

Also, Whitner's versatility is great, but not that far out of the ordinary. Remember Troy Vincent? Should we have valued him as a #8 pick value when he played with us? He went from CB to safety. Versatility. The fact is that certain positions, particularly secondary, OL and LB are often able to switch roles within that group of positions. Do we say, hey, our RT can also play RG and C in an emergency. He must have been worth a #8. And our MLB could play on each side in a pinch. Secondary is the same way. Lots of DBs play various positions in an emergency. It's great. But doesn't move their value up to #8.

[billsintaiwan]

drafting whitner was a good idea and bribing locals not to kill the troops or iraqi police (the surge) was long overdue!

[Pyrite Gal]

You might as well be still arguing that The Surge didn't work. It's time to deal with the reality that The Surge did work and drafting Donte Whitner at 8 in 2006 was not only not a reach, it's lining up to be a steal.

 

Let's start with this right here. A "great" player makes those around him better. How about a player that can replace those around him due to matchup or injury and improve the play at that position? Strike one.

 

Let's look at who was drafted ahead of Whitner:

1 Houston Texans Mario Williams Defensive end

2 New Orleans Saints Reggie Bush Running back

3 Tennessee Titans Vince Young Quarterback

4 New York Jets D'Brickashaw Ferguson Offensive tackle

5 Green Bay Packers A. J. Hawk Linebacker

6 San Francisco 49ers Vernon Davis Tight end

7 Oakland Raiders Michael Huff Safety

 

Who of the above is a better leader than Whitner? Who is, pound for pound, playing better at their position? Who is having a better effect on the players around them? Who can step in and play 3 other positions on the field? Strike two.

 

Hawk, Davis, and Huff? It's not even a debate. I can see Ferguson, maybe, but Whitner's intangibles and versatility means he wins. Young? Please. Reggie Bush is starting to look like a 3rd down scat back. Marshawn has the same # of TDs, and 100 more yards on the ground. Mario Williams I can see, but again, he loses in terms of the overall player.

 

Ferguson, Williams and even Bush are debatable, but even if you throw them in we still got the 4th best guy in the draft at the #8 slot, and that is a steal any way you cut it. 4 spots in the top ten = (to move from 8 to 4) costs you a #18 2nd round draft pick, or 2 #14 3rd round picks. Draft value chart here So, like I said, Whitner is an absolute steal.

 

Finally, the other players ahead of Whitner have all probably peaked. They are what they are and they are as good as they are going to get. They average safety doesn't really hit their stride until 5-6 years in the league, and that means Whitner is only going to get better. I'm sure Vince Young is going to make a big comeback... Strike three.

 

3 strikes you're out. Here endeth the argument. Deal with it. And for those of you still trying to talk about Ferguson, please explain how the hell we were supposed to do a deal with a division rival over the guy they wanted.

 

It's over. Be happy we didn't listen to you, and be happy that Marv Levy was running this team.

I think this argument/comparison actually does not give Whitner enough credit/ It has taken a bit over 2 years of results to make it clear that the choice of Whitner was the right thing to do but in a bit over 1 year of activity the Surge has succeeded in its initial goal of chopping successful violence in Iraq against Americans, but the jury is still out over this drop in violence will allow the necessary political compromises in Iraq to occur.

 

Whitner is the real deal but the jury is still out on the ultimate success of the Surge beyond its initial goal of drastically reducing the number of Americans killed. Still the Surge has had a year less to work so we will see if it succeeds in its ultimate goal on the same timeline as Whitner achieving success.

 

It appears likely though that the Surge will become a moot point if Iraqis do not agree to a continuation of the mandate beyond the end of the year as appears may be the case. The analogy would be broken as this would be the same as if Whitner had been knocked out the game after a season and a half and fortunately this did not occur to this great Bills player. The analogy seems to offer very little in addition to being totally inappropriate as football is merely a game and too many people are dying in Iraq when the original reason for going in, to stop WMD development proved meaningless.

[billsintaiwan]

The analogy seems to offer very little in addition to being totally inappropriate as football is merely a game and too many people are dying in Iraq when the original reason for going in, to stop WMD development proved meaningless.

 

 

indeed! let's keep politics and football separate. i like this board because there is way way less patriotic jingoistic chest thumping than on buffalobills.com, and the level of football knowledge is at least a step or two higher!

[Steely Dan]

The analogy seems to offer very little in addition to being totally inappropriate as football is merely a game and too many people are dying in Iraq when the original reason for going in, to stop WMD development proved meaningless.

 

 

 

indeed! let's keep politics and football separate. i like this board because there is way way less patriotic jingoistic chest thumping than on buffalobills.com, and the level of football knowledge is at least a step or two higher!

 

What he said.

 

As for Ngata vs. Whitner it's a stupid argument. Whitner is responsible for all the DB calls in the backfield. The position calls for an intelligent player and a physical player. I believe he's both. As for Ngata he's a 3-4 player. Baltimore plays a 3-4. There are few teams that run the 3-4 anymore. That might explain his dropping down so far. It's better to get a guy who is made for the position a team is going to use him for rather than try to stick a square peg into round hole.

[DaGimp]

I wouldn't group Mario Williams in here. If you put Williams on this team instead of Whitner( I do love him by the way) you would be stupid not to talk about winning the Super Bowl. He would have a huge impact.

[metzelaars_lives]

You might as well be still arguing that The Surge didn't work. It's time to deal with the reality that The Surge did work and drafting Donte Whitner at 8 in 2006 was not only not a reach, it's lining up to be a steal.

 

Agree with everything you said but keep your politics outta here. I, for instance, would argue that it doesn't matter if said surge worked, we shouldn't have been there in the first place and the war cannot be "won" in the sense that McCain thinks it can be ie. you're never gonna see different sects of Muslims shaking hands and being buddies and saying, "thanks America" as they wave to us and we fly away. Agreed however, Whitner is sick.

[Ramius]

You might as well be still arguing that The Surge didn't work. It's time to deal with the reality that The Surge did work and drafting Donte Whitner at 8 in 2006 was not only not a reach, it's lining up to be a steal.

 

Let's start with this right here. A "great" player makes those around him better. How about a player that can replace those around him due to matchup or injury and improve the play at that position? Strike one.

 

Let's look at who was drafted ahead of Whitner:

1 Houston Texans Mario Williams Defensive end

2 New Orleans Saints Reggie Bush Running back

3 Tennessee Titans Vince Young Quarterback

4 New York Jets D'Brickashaw Ferguson Offensive tackle

5 Green Bay Packers A. J. Hawk Linebacker

6 San Francisco 49ers Vernon Davis Tight end

7 Oakland Raiders Michael Huff Safety

 

Who of the above is a better leader than Whitner? Who is, pound for pound, playing better at their position? Who is having a better effect on the players around them? Who can step in and play 3 other positions on the field? Strike two.

 

Hawk, Davis, and Huff? It's not even a debate. I can see Ferguson, maybe, but Whitner's intangibles and versatility means he wins. Young? Please. Reggie Bush is starting to look like a 3rd down scat back. Marshawn has the same # of TDs, and 100 more yards on the ground. Mario Williams I can see, but again, he loses in terms of the overall player.

 

Ferguson, Williams and even Bush are debatable, but even if you throw them in we still got the 4th best guy in the draft at the #8 slot, and that is a steal any way you cut it. 4 spots in the top ten = (to move from 8 to 4) costs you a #18 2nd round draft pick, or 2 #14 3rd round picks. Draft value chart here So, like I said, Whitner is an absolute steal.

 

Finally, the other players ahead of Whitner have all probably peaked. They are what they are and they are as good as they are going to get. They average safety doesn't really hit their stride until 5-6 years in the league, and that means Whitner is only going to get better. I'm sure Vince Young is going to make a big comeback... Strike three.

 

3 strikes you're out. Here endeth the argument. Deal with it. And for those of you still trying to talk about Ferguson, please explain how the hell we were supposed to do a deal with a division rival over the guy they wanted.

 

It's over. Be happy we didn't listen to you, and be happy that Marv Levy was running this team.

 

Great post OC! Whitner is a huge reason as to why the Bills are doing so well this year.

[StupidNation]

LOL at Whitner is below average in pass coverage......especially after this game....he played 3 different positions....you think theyd put him at CB/NB if he couldnt cover....?? are you F-ing serious??

 

 

Watch the Bills/Redskins game last year....check out the first half....then see what Fewell decided to change in the 2nd half....then check the results.....night and day.....

 

check it....get back to me

 

Tell me how Whitner broke up passes or helped stop the pass that game. The only guys who did anything in the passing game were Greer and Mitchell at the end with one INT. Rivers passed at will most of the game. Did you even watch it?

 

Whitner didn't have one PD or one INT, and didn't stop any receiver from catching the ball once.

 

I know facts suck on this board, but those are facts. Against a fact there is no argument. Whitner has done NOTHING in the passing game that merits a discussion. I could play all 11 positions but if I don't do anything why should I get credit for being so great?

 

Tell me how Whitner did in the passing game in the Cardinals game. Get back to me (hint: it's the same prognosis 2 lines above)

[The Dean]

Whitner didn't have one PD or one INT, and didn't stop any receiver from catching the ball once.

 

 

Well, if you understood the game, you might realize that you are answering your own questions. Despite the fact that Whitner played FS and NICKEL CB much of the game, he was rarely tested. If he sucked at coverage, as you seem to think, you would think he would be targeted, especially by a QB like Rivers. But, take a look a the play-by-play from Sunday's game:

 

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay?g...8&week=REG7

 

Whitner's was only thrown at ONCE the entire game, and the play went for a THREE yard completion. The pass was caught in the flat, and if it is the one I'm thinking of, it goes for a BIG gain if Whitner misses the open field tackle.

 

You may want to also read this article:

 

http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/billsnfl/story/470626.html

 

Your infantile insistence in looking only for certain stats to validate a player's worth, is typical of those who really don't pay a lot of attention to the game.

[billsintaiwan]

Well, if you understood the game, you might realize that you are answering your own questions. Despite the fact that Whitner played FW and NICKEL CB much of the game, he was rarely tested. If he sucked at coverage, as you seem to think, you would think he would be targeted, especially by a QB like Rivers. But, take a look a the play-by-play from Sunday's game:

 

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay?g...8&week=REG7

 

Whitner's was only thrown at ONCE the entire game, and the play went for a THREE yard completion. The pass was caught in the flat, and if it is the one I'm thinking of, it goes for a BIG gain if Whitner misses the open field tackle.

 

You may want to also read this article:

 

http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/billsnfl/story/470626.html

 

Your infantile insistence in looking only for certain stats to validate a player's worth, is typical of those who really don't pay a lot of attention to the game.

 

 

harsh but 100% correct

[StupidNation]

Well, if you understood the game, you might realize that you are answering your own questions. ...

 

 

Your infantile insistence in looking only for certain stats to validate a player's worth, is typical of those who really don't pay a lot of attention to the game.

 

It's not infantile to hope for PDs or INTs. Only idiots deny those things, and I mean ONLY idiots. Let's re-do some conversations in history, tell me how funny they would be:

 

"Ronnie Lott was great at safety, he was great in pass coverage despite only 1 INT and 1 PD a season."

 

"Brian Dawkins has been fantastic in pass coverage this year despite only 1 INT and 1 PD a season."

 

Only in homer-land would that work.

 

Yes, my infantile insistence is called logic, which is cold and characteristically unbearable to those who try to work around it.

 

But let's look at it another way, and I wasn't thinking about him, why was Scott covering Gates rather than Whitner? Didn't we draft Whitner for that reason? Wasn't it to stop the new Os that focus on TEs so we needed a fast SS who could stop them?

 

It might have something to do with 9 Rec for 90 yards back in 2006 and realized that Dante was going to get torched by their best receiver for the game. Scott, a back-up, was better in coverage with Gates. SS line up with TEs by the way.

 

Gates in 2006 when Whitner covers him 9 rec 90 yards

Gates in 2008 with Scott, back-up, covers him 4 rec 55 yrds

 

Don't let your rose-colored sunglasses stop you from watching the game.

[kota]

People take issue with Whitner because he doesn't have many interceptions and didn't record his first sack until this year against the RAMS. That is why this debate is still going on. If Whitner was moved to FS i think his numbers would be differently but unfortunately that hasn't happened due to personal issues. They tried to get Marlon McCree in the offseason who would have been the SS but he chose Denver instead.

[BillsVet]

What he said.

 

As for Ngata vs. Whitner it's a stupid argument. Whitner is responsible for all the DB calls in the backfield. The position calls for an intelligent player and a physical player. I believe he's both. As for Ngata he's a 3-4 player. Baltimore plays a 3-4. There are few teams that run the 3-4 anymore. That might explain his dropping down so far. It's better to get a guy who is made for the position a team is going to use him for rather than try to stick a square peg into round hole.

 

Ngata is not a just 3-4 player, and allegations supporting this are garbage. He's nimble enough to play the 1 tech in a classic C2 defense while offering the versatility to handle the NT spot in a 3-4. By the way, what does Baltimore run? It's a 4-3!

 

Look, there's nothing going to change what happened two and a half years ago re: Whitner versus Ngata. We can say that Whitner talks and plays well and he's not going to bust. That's true. But instead of blindly supporting the front office at every opportunity, it's necessary to know that teams win at the LOS more often than in the secondary. Heck, look at Denver. They've got two excellent CB's, and they can't stop the pass to save their lives. They didn't do that well when John Lynch was a legit pro bowler either.

 

All elements of a defense work in tandem, especially in a C2. The pass rush and run stuffers set up the DB's whether it's 1970, 1990 or 2008.

[StupidNation]

Ngata is not a just 3-4 player, and allegations supporting this are garbage. He's nimble enough to play the 1 tech in a classic C2 defense while offering the versatility to handle the NT spot in a 3-4. By the way, what does Baltimore run? It's a 4-3!

 

Look, there's nothing going to change what happened two and a half years ago re: Whitner versus Ngata. We can say that Whitner talks and plays well and he's not going to bust. That's true. But instead of blindly supporting the front office at every opportunity, it's necessary to know that teams win at the LOS more often than in the secondary. Heck, look at Denver. They've got two excellent CB's, and they can't stop the pass to save their lives. They didn't do that well when John Lynch was a legit pro bowler either.

 

All elements of a defense work in tandem, especially in a C2. The pass rush and run stuffers set up the DB's whether it's 1970, 1990 or 2008.

 

I'll actually take 2 excellent DTs over 2 excellent Safeties or CBs any day of the week.

[Thoner7]

By mel kiper.... who doesnt work for an NFL team for a reason

 

And every other analyist beside Mayock.... I love Whitner and am pleased with the selection at 8. I just want to say he was not a top 10 safety at the time of the draft, and to say otherwise requires hindsight.

 

Mel Kiper also had McCargo as a 4th round selection, he was right on track that pick, maybe even a bit high.

[Dawgg]

But let's look at it another way, and I wasn't thinking about him, why was Scott covering Gates rather than Whitner? Didn't we draft Whitner for that reason? Wasn't it to stop the new Os that focus on TEs so we needed a fast SS who could stop them?

 

It might have something to do with 9 Rec for 90 yards back in 2006 and realized that Dante was going to get torched by their best receiver for the game. Scott, a back-up, was better in coverage with Gates. SS line up with TEs by the way.

 

Gates in 2006 when Whitner covers him 9 rec 90 yards

Gates in 2008 with Scott, back-up, covers him 4 rec 55 yrds

 

Don't let your rose-colored sunglasses stop you from watching the game.

 

Precisely right.

 

Let's not forget Jason Witten's 9 catches for 110 yards in last year's Monday Night debacle.

[StupidNation]

Precisely right.

 

Let's not forget Jason Witten's 9 catches for 110 yards in last year's Monday Night debacle.

 

I didn't want to rub it in. I was hoping the simple comparison of SD to SD and Whitner to Whitner comps were applicable.