Michael Huff on a short lease

[Dibs]

I'm not convinced that Ngata is quite so one-dimensional as he is being made out in this thread. The Ravens system is built around a DL that eats blockers and lets its LBs, especially Ray Lewis, fly to the ball and make plays. Ngata has shown he is capable of playing in that system.

 

On the other hand, Ngata was a dominant DT in the Oregon system which asked him to penetrate and be a disruptive force. The guy was so cat quick off the snap, and powerful, that he was a constant threat to single-handedly penetrate the LOS and block field goals and extra points.

 

The Whitner pick needs to be justified or not on its own terms and not by trying to paste labels on other excellent players.

N'Gata was also known to lack motivation & take plays off......that didn't pan to the NFL(as far as I'm aware).

To my knowledge the T2 D requires a certain type of DT. You may be correct & N'Gata might indeed have the extraordinary ability of being such a big man....and being able to be quick enough off the snap & penetrate to the levels required by the T2.....but maybe not.

In the position the Bills were in back in 2006(needing nearly an entire new team of starters).....do you think that it would have been in any way wise to select a player at the #8 spot who had not only the 'normal' chance of busting out.....but might not have ever been able to play effectively in the system?

 

Re: the Whitner pick:-

Yes it does need to be justified on its own terms......and any careful analysis of players picked around the #8 selection shows that it already has been justified. The Whitner pick is well above the curve as he not only didn't bust out(high percent do this)......but is generally considered at least a good starter. Add on his intangibles and there really is no question.

 

Could the Bills have done better? Of course....but that can be said for virtually every draft selection ever made.

[Dibs]

Seriously.

 

His famous Thursday night film sessions and letting Leodis crash at his house are two of his finest accomplishments in the NFL!

I get it that you become annoyed at the posters trying to portray DW as a legit superstar(which he clearly isn't at this point in his career).

I don't get why in retaliation to the concept you feel the necessity to make out that he is not a very good player(which he clearly is at this point in his career).

[Pete]

Seriously.

 

His famous Thursday night film sessions and letting Leodis crash at his house are two of his finest accomplishments in the NFL!

would you rather have a player with Manny Ramirez's work ethic? Or how about Pac Man Jones' character?

[Sisyphean Bills]

N'Gata was also known to lack motivation & take plays off......that didn't pan to the NFL(as far as I'm aware).

Some scouts may have felt that way, but other scouts did not. The real concern with Ngata was his knee.

To my knowledge the T2 D requires a certain type of DT. You may be correct & N'Gata might indeed have the extraordinary ability of being such a big man....and being able to be quick enough off the snap & penetrate to the levels required by the T2.....but maybe not.

FWIW, I think Ngata is a rare freak athlete at the DT position and as such could play very well in most any system. Again, trying to extrapolate that he'd not be able to play in a Tampa-2 defense to further suggest the intrinsic goodness of the Whitner pick rings hollow.

In the position the Bills were in back in 2006(needing nearly an entire new team of starters).....do you think that it would have been in any way wise to select a player at the #8 spot who had not only the 'normal' chance of busting out.....but might not have ever been able to play effectively in the system?

Too many "if"s and "but"s for me.

 

Here is a straighter question: "Why Whitner?" The Bills wanted a safe pick in that draft. (Definition "safe pick": someone that was a very good football player, who had little in his game that needed to be "untaught" and re-coached, who was not a combine freak athlete or otherwise had "unlimited untapped potential", and finally someone that played a position and system in college where the evaluation of his translation to the Pro game was straight-forward and contained minimal guess work.) They wanted a character player: hard worker, self-directed, motivated. They had needs everywhere, so position wasn't as important. They had purged their veteran leadership and needed guys that showed leadership potential and a willingness to lead. Finally, Jauron is a defensive coach and his priority was to rebuild the defense first.

 

Now on the system: the Levy/Jauron tandem approach to the DL was quite Gregg Williams-like initially. The Tampa-2 is a vanilla system where, if everyone simply plays their role, the defense can be decent. A potential superstar DT was likely not a big concern in 06 to the front office as to some on TSW: they just wanted to field a rotation of DL players that could plug running lanes and generate some pressure. That approach didn't work out: they dumped Tripplett, tried to trade McCargo, traded for Stroud, and signed Johnson -- a massive course correction if there ever was one.

[Dibs]

.....FWIW, I think Ngata is a rare freak athlete at the DT position and as such could play very well in most any system. Again, trying to extrapolate that he'd not be able to play in a Tampa-2 defense to further suggest the intrinsic goodness of the Whitner pick rings hollow.......

At which point did I imply/suggest/state this?

I even said....."Yes it does need to be justified on its own terms......"

 

....and my point is(and often is).....that just because we ourselves might be convinced of a certain players ability, that does not mean it is correct.....it does not mean it was readily apparent at the time of the draft(hindsight).....and it does not mean that the numerous other factors involved in drafting players for a team/system are to be ignored.

 

Here is a straighter question: "Why Whitner?" The Bills wanted a safe pick in that draft. (Definition "safe pick": someone that was a very good football player, who had little in his game that needed to be "untaught" and re-coached, who was not a combine freak athlete or otherwise had "unlimited untapped potential", and finally someone that played a position and system in college where the evaluation of his translation to the Pro game was straight-forward and contained minimal guess work.) They wanted a character player: hard worker, self-directed, motivated. They had needs everywhere, so position wasn't as important. They had purged their veteran leadership and needed guys that showed leadership potential and a willingness to lead. Finally, Jauron is a defensive coach and his priority was to rebuild the defense first.

I mainly agree with this. I don't see how choosing a 'safe pick' in the situation the Bills were in can be considered a bad decision. It has merits(& flaws) just as any choice.....and as it turns out, the DW pick was successful.

The only part of this that I vary from you is that position actually was important. The T2 D relies more on its Safeties.....less on its CBs. Also needs selective type of DTs(which I'll cover below)

 

Now on the system: the Levy/Jauron tandem approach to the DL was quite Gregg Williams-like initially. The Tampa-2 is a vanilla system where, if everyone simply plays their role, the defense can be decent. A potential superstar DT was likely not a big concern in 06 to the front office as to some on TSW: they just wanted to field a rotation of DL players that could plug running lanes and generate some pressure. That approach didn't work out: they dumped Tripplett, tried to trade McCargo, traded for Stroud, and signed Johnson -- a massive course correction if there ever was one.

I disagree with this.

Going into 2006 we did not have one starting caliber nor backup caliber DT. Tripplett was brought in to be one of the starters.....for the time, he was given quite a large contract. Obviously he did not pan out(mistake). The movements on draft day re: McCargo showed how....ahem....desperate they were to get the prototype T2 DT(McCargo was supposed to become this). They also drafted Williams.

Obviously they could not 'build' the DT unit in one season. As Tripplett & McCargo were not panning out......they again tried to obtain the DTs needed, this time with Johnson & Stroud. I don't see how you can view it as a course correction....the first attempt to do the job failed......so they tried again(Johnson=Tripplett......Stroud=McCargo).

[Sisyphean Bills]

At which point did I imply/suggest/state this?

I even said....."Yes it does need to be justified on its own terms......"

Not saying that you did.

I mainly agree with this. I don't see how choosing a 'safe pick' in the situation the Bills were in can be considered a bad decision.

And just where did I say it was a "bad decision"? Hint: nowhere.

I disagree with this.

Going into 2006 we did not have one starting caliber nor backup caliber DT.

That is a strong statement. Of course, Anderson (started 12 games in 05) and Jefferson were holdovers from the year before. Adams, Bannan, Edwards, and Sape were goners.

Tripplett was brought in to be one of the starters.....for the time, he was given quite a large contract. Obviously he did not pan out(mistake). The movements on draft day re: McCargo showed how....ahem....desperate they were to get the prototype T2 DT(McCargo was supposed to become this). They also drafted Williams.

Or maybe not. Tripplett was the veteran 3-tech guy that they hoped would step up. McCargo was drafted as a 3-tech guy that they could rotate. Again, if you look at the talent that walked out of the building, the Bills needed help at the DT position because they didn't have near enough bodies. But that doesn't mean that they were interested in building the team through the DT position. They drafted 3 defensive backs in their first 4 picks, which is an indication that the secondary was more of a concern than the line. At the time, the McCargo trade up and pick was explained as the Bills felt there were 3 "1st round" DTs in that draft, 2 of them had gone off the board, and the next batch of DTs had nowhere near as much upside. So, they pulled the trigger and moved up to snag the last "Stud DT" in that draft. As it turned out, they mis-evaluated McCargo.

I don't see how you can view it as a course correction....the first attempt to do the job failed......so they tried again(Johnson=Tripplett......Stroud=McCargo).

You answer your own question. They charted one course and it was a !@#$ up. So, they charted a new course with different players. Note that this overhaul at the DT position happened just 2 years after the first overhaul.

[The Dean]

Would they have made the Whitner pick and passed on Ngata had they known that McCargo was not a starting-caliber NFL player? I doubt it.

 

 

I'm guessing they would have still picked Whitner. I think, if they could do it over today, they still pick Whitner.

 

Of course, knowing what they know now, they likely wouldn't pick McCargo again.

[BillsVet]

Whitner is a good player, but Michael Huff's inability to succeed in Oakland doesn't make Donte better.

 

Just for the heck of it, Lawyer Milloy's got 33 solo tackles, 5 assists, and one INT. He's also missed only 5 games in the past 4 1/2 seasons. No one's posting that the man Whitner replaced is playing as well or even better. Does that make Whitner an underacheiver?

 

FWIW, I think Whitner will continue to improve, but I wouldn't have started with a SS over a DT to builld a team starting over again.

[The Dean]

Whitner is a good player, but Michael Huff's inability to succeed in Oakland doesn't make Donte better.

 

 

That's right. Huff's experience in Oakland is what it is.

 

It's Whitner's heart, leadership ability and versatility that make him better than Huff. If Whitner had been drafted by the Raiders and Huff by the Bills, Whitner would still be the better player...and probably with more "WOW!"-type plays, too.

 

And, you state that you wouldn't have started withWhitner, or a SS, over a DT as a starting point for the D. I probably wouldn't have either. I believe that shows that you and I wouldn't be as good an NFL GM as Marv (and his team) was. He was right...we were wrong, IMO.

[BillsVet]

That's right. Huff's experience in Oakland is what it is.

 

It's Whitner's heart, leadership ability and versatility that make him better than Huff. If Whitner had been drafted by the Raiders and Huff by the Bills, Whitner would still be the better player...and probably with more "WOW!"-type plays, too.

 

And, you state that you wouldn't have started withWhitner, or a SS, over a DT as a starting point for the D. I probably wouldn't have either. I believe that shows that you and I wouldn't be as good an NFL GM as Marv (and his team) was. He was right...we were wrong, IMO.

 

Despite the credit going to Marv, I still think Jauron was making many of those picks. Marv admitted he didn't have as much to do with that draft. Not because the first picks were DB's, but because Jauron wanted a safety first as opposed to a DT. The C2 looks for turnovers, and DT's aren't usually intercepting a lot of passes. And don't look now, but Brodrick Bunkley is becoming quite a player lining up next to Mike Patterson in Philly.

 

 

That said, I don't know who is responsible for 07, but it's looking fabulous. Getting a hard running RB, excellent C2 MLB, and one of the best QB prospects to enter the league in recent years. Yeah, I'll take that.

[The Dean]

Despite the credit going to Marv, I still think Jauron was making many of those picks. Marv admitted he didn't have as much to do with that draft.

 

 

I think this is misstates Marv's influence on the draft, and the way the Bills made decisions during Marv's tenure as GM. I don't think any one person made the draft decisions for the Bills during Marv's tenure. I also assume that every pick was approved by Marv (and Ralph) before it was made. Marv said as much, recently"

 

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/articl...S0102/809200346

 

But Marvelous Marv's influence on this Buffalo team doesn't stop there. He also oversaw the drafting of Trent Edwards, Donte Whitner, Marshawn Lynch, Paul Posluszny, Kyle Williams and Ashton Youboty, among others. And he was responsible for bringing in role players such as versatile running back Fred Jackson, a free-agent who cut his teeth in NFL Europe and indoor leagues.

 

"It's all about me, and I'll take full credit for the success the Bills are enjoying," Marv joked the other day from his Windy City condo overlooking Lake Michigan.

 

"In reality, the moves that were made were the result of incorporating the input from a lot of good people. It wasn't a case of me pounding my fist and demanding that we choose this person or that person. In each case, it was a consensus of opinion."

Marv's modesty is as endearing as his erudition and his infectious sense of humor.

 

Yes, there was a consensus, and Marv clearly leaned heavily on Jauron, Wilson and college personnel director Tom Modrak. But don't kid yourself about his role, especially when it came to decisions regarding the drafting of Whitner and Edwards.

 

 

In fact, I remember an interview with Marv (wish I could find it) where he talks specifically about the parts of the GM job he enjoyed, and those he didn't. The draft was mentioned as one of the areas that Marv like, and was quite involved with.

 

That may be why, even after he announced his retirement last season, his involvement with the 2008 draft (as a consultant) was being mentioned:

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3173961

 

A person with the Bills told The Associated Press on Sunday evening there had been discussion about Levy stepping down, but not until after the NFL draft in April. The person spoke on the condition of anonymity because Levy and the team had not announced a decision.

 

Of course, as we know, Marv stepped down before the draft, and I don't know if he served as a consultant to the team for this past draft.

[Shanahan's Horseshoe]

The Dean(The Donte), you are obviously a member of the Whitner family. You defend him as if you have money invested in him. That being said, the Ngata argument is old. Ngata is very obviously the better player and he is a Raven. The Dean(The Donte) made me realize something about DW a while back. We should not judge him on where he was picked but what he does on the field. The fact is DW has done very little to make an impact on the field. He is steady and average. But what I finally realized is that the Bills know that he has major limitations as well. They dont use him in blitz packages and rarely use him around the line of scrimmage anymore because these are not his strenghts. His strenghts are letting things happen in front of him and filling in for the run 5 yards down field. And while The Dean(The Donte) will make ridiculous arguments like, Donte is not PUT in position to make plays(?) or he has missed very few games, this does not make him a great player. I think what confuses and frustrates the critics of DW is the adoration that he recieves from fans and local media for simply being a leader. The mere fact that someone posted that he will go down as one of the "greatest Bills" makes me think that you know nothing about football. The thought of his name even being mentioned with the likes of Bruce, Jimbo, Thurman, OJ(YEAH, OJ!), Ted Washington, Bennett, Reed, Tasker, Gilchrist, Shaw, Joe D.....get it?

So to all of the DW critics, we need to get over the fact that Ngata is not a Bill and that DW is our Leader, not an 8th pick impact, game-changing-pro-bowler!!!

[The Dean]

The Dean(The Donte), you are obviously a member of the Whitner family. You defend him as if you have money invested in him. That being said, the Ngata argument is old. Ngata is very obviously the better player and he is a Raven. The Dean(The Donte) made me realize something about DW a while back. We should not judge him on where he was picked but what he does on the field. The fact is DW has done very little to make an impact on the field. He is steady and average. But what I finally realized is that the Bills know that he has major limitations as well. They dont use him in blitz packages and rarely use him around the line of scrimmage anymore because these are not his strenghts. His strenghts are letting things happen in front of him and filling in for the run 5 yards down field. And while The Dean(The Donte) will make ridiculous arguments like, Donte is not PUT in position to make plays(?) or he has missed very few games, this does not make him a great player. I think what confuses and frustrates the critics of DW is the adoration that he recieves from fans and local media for simply being a leader. The mere fact that someone posted that he will go down as one of the "greatest Bills" makes me think that you know nothing about football. The thought of his name even being mentioned with the likes of Bruce, Jimbo, Thurman, OJ(YEAH, OJ!), Ted Washington, Bennett, Reed, Tasker, Gilchrist, Shaw, Joe D.....get it?

So to all of the DW critics, we need to get over the fact that Ngata is not a Bill and that DW is our Leader, not an 8th pick impact, game-changing-pro-bowler!!!

 

 

Hmm...let's see how the newbie here likes to post.

 

He disagrees with a poster, so calls him names and insults his football intelligence. Well done!

 

And let me get this one thing straight: Because someone (not me) posted that Donte will go down as one of the greatest Bills, it makes you think that I know nothing about football. Very interesting logic you got there, rook.

[Shanahan's Horseshoe]

Hmm...let's see how the newbie here likes to post.

 

He disagrees with a poster, so calls him names and insults his football intelligence. Well done!

 

And let me get this one thing straight: Because someone (not me) posted that Donte will go down as one of the greatest Bills, it makes you think that I know nothing about football. Very interesting logic you got there, rook.

The Dean(The Donte), that was not a shot at you but I can see how you took it that way so I apologize.

 

Rook? I guess, but it seems to me that you are taking this message board a little to serious. Nice deflection though.

[The Dean]

The Dean(The Donte), that was not a shot at you but I can see how you took it that way so I apologize.

 

Rook? I guess, but it seems to me that you are taking this message board a little to serious. Nice deflection though.

 

 

I guess I thought it was directed at me, as you mentioned me, in the post, at least three times. You didn't bother to use separate paragraphs to separate your buses of thought (let's face it, your thought process never makes it to train speed), so I'm not sure how I wouldn't think it was directed at me.

 

You see, I don't take this board all that seriously, but I did take my education fairly seriously.

[Shanahan's Horseshoe]

I guess I thought it was directed at me, as you mentioned me, in the post, at least three times. You didn't bother to use separate paragraphs to separate your buses of thought (let's face it, your thought process never makes it to train speed), so I'm not sure how I wouldn't think it was directed at me.

 

You see, I don't take this board all that seriously, but I did take my education fairly seriously.

When Mensa was reviewing your application , were they impressed by your 11,000 posts in 6 years?

 

[The Dean]

When Mensa was reviewing your application , were they impressed by your 11,000 posts in 6 years?

 

 

 

Mensa

 

[Dibs]

.....So to all of the DW critics, we need to get over the fact that Ngata is not a Bill and that DW is our Leader, not an 8th pick impact, game-changing-pro-bowler!!!

You(like many others) seem to irrationally expect too much from the #8 pick in the draft. If he isn't a game-changing-pro-bowler by his 3rd season then he must be a bust. DW is already well ahead of the curve in terms of others drafted in a similar area and is generally considered to be a top 15 safety(out of all safeties).

 

I understand rose coloured glasses Bills fans rating him above what he has produced....that seems like a natural thing to do.....I don't understand Bills fans who not only rate him lower than he is universally considered to be but also erroneously imply that he is not living up to a #8 selection.

[Dawgg]

The Dean(The Donte), you are obviously a member of the Whitner family. You defend him as if you have money invested in him. That being said, the Ngata argument is old. Ngata is very obviously the better player and he is a Raven. The Dean(The Donte) made me realize something about DW a while back. We should not judge him on where he was picked but what he does on the field. The fact is DW has done very little to make an impact on the field. He is steady and average. But what I finally realized is that the Bills know that he has major limitations as well. They dont use him in blitz packages and rarely use him around the line of scrimmage anymore because these are not his strenghts. His strenghts are letting things happen in front of him and filling in for the run 5 yards down field. And while The Dean(The Donte) will make ridiculous arguments like, Donte is not PUT in position to make plays(?) or he has missed very few games, this does not make him a great player. I think what confuses and frustrates the critics of DW is the adoration that he recieves from fans and local media for simply being a leader. The mere fact that someone posted that he will go down as one of the "greatest Bills" makes me think that you know nothing about football. The thought of his name even being mentioned with the likes of Bruce, Jimbo, Thurman, OJ(YEAH, OJ!), Ted Washington, Bennett, Reed, Tasker, Gilchrist, Shaw, Joe D.....get it?

So to all of the DW critics, we need to get over the fact that Ngata is not a Bill and that DW is our Leader, not an 8th pick impact, game-changing-pro-bowler!!!

 

You are absolutely right.

 

Donte has been a solid player, nothing more. He has made about the same impact on the field as Kyle Williams. Solid, borderline good... nothing spectacular.

 

That said, the key difference between Donte and Kyle Williams: Donte knows how to work the media. And the fans here at TBD eat it up!

[Thurman#1]

New Raiders era: Tom Cable's first major decision in Oakland as interim coach was putting safety Michael Huff on notice that he could lose his starting job. Huff, the seventh pick in the 2006 draft, is now sharing the safety position with Hiram Elam. Huff is still the starter, but Cable said Elam will now challenge Huff for more playing time. It may not make Al Davis happy to see the seventh pick in a draft heading to the bench, but Huff has clearly struggled in coverage.

 

The Whitner pick is looking better and better.

 

 

 

Remember how horrible Langston Walker looked as a Raider? And how improved he's looked here, in a decent atmosphere?

 

Put Huff in a good system and he might well look like a whole different player. At this point, you have to have pity on anyone in that wretched Raider environment.