Tsaikotic Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 I think the blocking can and will be better come mid season when the line finally gets back from that bullsh!t Peters put them thru...do I think we need upgrades?..yes at both C and RG...so I'm not saying the line is going to be dominant just better...heres the running so far this season.. and don't forget that Bills have 2 RB' not just Lynch..: week 1 - Bills vs. Seattle : Lynch 18/76(4.2), Jackson 10/31(3.1) > 28/107(3.8) week 2 - Bills vs Jax: Lynch 19/59(3.1), Jackson 6/17(2.8) > 25/76(3.04) week 3 - Bills vs Raiders: Lynch 23/83(3.6), Jackson 5/24(4.8) > 28/107(3.8) week 4 - Bills vs Rams: Lynch 19/57(3.0), Jackson 7/46(6.5) > 26/103(3.9) week 5 - Bills vs Cardinals: Lynch 13/55(4.2), Jackson 1/5(5.0) > 14/60(4.2) thats 3 games with over 100 yards rushing, 1 game against a good run stopping D for 76 yards and 1 game in which JP had to throw all day to catch up against Cardinals...would I like to see Lynch with 90+ yards and Jackson with 50+ every game..yea sure, but its not going to happen until we get a new C and maybe a new RG as well...but I think(hope) after the bye the yards go up with the O-Line have a little time to get back on track Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookiemonster Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 After looking at various things, I am beginning to believe our blocking scheme is the root of our problems in the run game. When Derrick Dockery was with the Redskins, he was considered a road grader, and runs behind his side of the football were in the top 5 in the NFL for average gain. Oakland had a pretty decent running game when running the ball behind Langston Walker. Minnesota even could run the ball effectively with Fowler as the center. So to me, the problem must be our scheme. Dockery does not go from one of the best run blocking guards in the NFL to a guy who can't block overnight. Fowler while not the greatest center in the world, isn't horrible either, although he gets shoved into the backfield a little too much for my liking. What do you think the problem is? I can't imagine players who were successful at run blocking on other teams, including a guy who was one of the best at it in Dockery, can all of a sudden not know how to run block anymore... It appears the guys are tentative when blocking and are waiting for the DLinemen to come to them rather than trying to force the issue and blow them off the ball... Anyone else have any comments on this? Maybe the scheme is an issue, but I would also consider the fact that other teams really do not respect our passing game, so they load up the box, and rely on man to man coverage. I think that Trent and the recivers are getting more comfortable, and starting to produce more on a consistent basis, and that will do more than anyting to open up the run. I realize that it is usually the other way around, but we are going to have to use the passing game to set up our running game, and Trent is just the man to do this. Using Evans more on quick slants, and short quick strikes, as well as Reed and Roscoe, and they have been doing it, at least a couple of times this year we have opened our first offensive series with middle range passes to Evans that have turned in to fairly long gains, we need to keep doing this. until teams start respecting our passing game, our run blocking will not be as effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsaikotic Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 and like someone already said..I think the lack of a real pass catching TE has hurt us also...with no respect shown to any of the Bills TE 's, teams can stack the box Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 Freddy is just a bit quicker to the line than Marshawn (IMO). He is also a 'squirter', able to accelerate through a small hole and pop out the other side. Disagree - I just think he's in their in situations where the defense isn't stacking up against the run (he gets a good number of passes). When Lynch is in there, they do stack up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnbillsbacker Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 The problem with the line is Jason Peters's holdout and the middle of the line. Last year, the bills were able to give Walker help on passing plays, because Peters could hold off the best pass rushers in the league by himself. This year, Peters has struggled, so there has been a lot more pressure on the qb. As for the run blocking, Fowler and Butler are not great run blockers. Fowler is a very smart player who makes good calls on the line, but he can't put a helmet on a helmet and take the tackle out of the play. In fact, many times the tackle is able to blow right by him, disrupting the play in the backfield. I fear this problem will get worse instead of better, with the 3-4 teams in the AFC east all having strong nose tackles. Butler is a poor fit at rg. Ross Tucker, called rg the 2nd hardest position on the line. Butler is not up to the task. He has the talent to be a good backup at the tackle position, but lacks the push in the running game. Of Butler and Fowler, Butler is here to stay. The team has invested a lot of money in him, and believe he will get better. As bills fans, we have to hope for the best. Fowler however, will be replaced. In any other division in football, he would be fine. In the AFC east, the bills need a stronger center to hold off Jenkins and Wilfolk. The bills line will improve however, once Peters gets back into playing shape. When it is all said and done, I believe the bills line will be considered average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordong Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 Geesh..... do any of you guy remember last year we had THE best oline coach in the business....bar none. and this year we don't, maybe that might have something to do with it?????? YES. And it's kinda funny how peters looks average this year as compared to last...and the line is giving up way more sacks? do you see the trend yet??? COACHING....COACHING my friends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 I think the zone blocking strategy is for the running back to hit whatever crease exists and Fred Jackson is good at changing directions and going forward at the same time. He slides over to wherever the crease is. It appears to me the Marshawn is a plow ahead/ physical runner that might be better served by a drive blocking scheme. I also think Fowler gets blown up in the middle of the line which limits our between the tackles running. Not sure Butler has the feet for a zone blocking scheme either. After watching the SD nose tackle manhandle NE's center last week, I cannot see Fowler being too successful. He does make good line calls though. I agree that it's altogether too easy for defensive linemen to push Fowler around. As far as him making good line calls goes . . . I'm not so sure. This season I've noticed times when it appeared that the wrong line call was made. I suspect that's part of the reason why the line has typically failed to provide any pass protection at all until the 4th quarter, which to me is an even more serious problem than the absence of any noticeable run blocking. For those who have been examining the line's play in detail: how does the quality of Fowler's line calls compare to that of other centers in the league? I know that everyone makes mistakes, but has Fowler, this season, made more or fewer mistakes than is normal for a center? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted October 15, 2008 Author Share Posted October 15, 2008 That's fine but it doesn't change the fact that the Bills don't run a zone blocking scheme. Now, Joe D may feel the Bills run too many plays that resemble the zone block scheme but they don't run the Denver system whether Joe D thinks they do or not. No offense taken, no big deal. Like I said though, it doesn't really matter because the personel on the line prevents the line from being great at smash mouth or zone. It's FUBAR. Well, if they are in fact running a zone scheme, then perhaps this is the problem, since the Bills are the heaviest offensive line in the league at an average of 322 lbs, and most zone blocking schemes call for OL that are in the 295-305 lb range and emphasize quickness and lateral movement over raw power... They most certainly have the wrong personal for a zone scheme if they are running it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted October 15, 2008 Author Share Posted October 15, 2008 Geesh..... do any of you guy remember last year we had THE best oline coach in the business....bar none. and this year we don't, maybe that might have something to do with it?????? YES. And it's kinda funny how peters looks average this year as compared to last...and the line is giving up way more sacks? do you see the trend yet??? COACHING....COACHING my friends actually, they were just as bad at run blocking last year if not worse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 After looking at various things, I am beginning to believe our blocking scheme is the root of our problems in the run game. When Derrick Dockery was with the Redskins, he was considered a road grader, and runs behind his side of the football were in the top 5 in the NFL for average gain. Oakland had a pretty decent running game when running the ball behind Langston Walker. Minnesota even could run the ball effectively with Fowler as the center. So to me, the problem must be our scheme. Dockery does not go from one of the best run blocking guards in the NFL to a guy who can't block overnight. Fowler while not the greatest center in the world, isn't horrible either, although he gets shoved into the backfield a little too much for my liking. What do you think the problem is? I can't imagine players who were successful at run blocking on other teams, including a guy who was one of the best at it in Dockery, can all of a sudden not know how to run block anymore... It appears the guys are tentative when blocking and are waiting for the DLinemen to come to them rather than trying to force the issue and blow them off the ball... Anyone else have any comments on this? I disagree, Fowler really is terrible. We don't challenge defenses to cover the whole field. Yeah, after 786 consecutive plays within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage, we "fool" the defense by going long and look very clever doing so, for a play here and a play there. I also don't think we block straight ahead much. With a big line like ours, I think we are better off not asking these guys to make much lateral movement. Let them just hit the guy in front of them and move them wherever they can and let Lynch find the hole. Old school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills_fan Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I thought Butler looked real good last year. He really seemed to get better as the year wore on. This year, I thought he would be a real strength of the line. A guy really coming into his own. That has not happened (to my untrained eye)...why? He just does not seem to have the strength/leverage to push his guy around. He did that last year, especially at the end of the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spirit of '66 Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 IMO the Bills run the ball better when they spread the defense out with 3 or 4 WRs. I'm not talking about 3rd and long draw plays. I'm talking any down and distance. They get clogged up when they use a TE, a FB and bring Josh Reed in motion to block. All that does is bring extra defenders into the box being blocked by guys who aren't good blockers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Let them just hit the guy in front of them and move them wherever they can and let Lynch find the hole. Old school. Run to daylight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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