Beerball Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 Can you imagine Tony trying to explain to his teammates on how they are not losers & he still believes in the teams ability to win? He basically said we are going nowhere and I want off this ship, let me jump. Peterson totally F-him good and left his team in a lurch, which should benefits the Bills later this season. All in all, I think KC will have new management within the next few years. I don't know for sure, but...my guess is that his teammates have no problem with him wanting out. He stated that he will prepare and play as he always has and that is what matters. I also don't know for sure, but...my guess is that the Chiefs know that they are not a very good team at this time.
Sisyphean Bills Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 In college, Collins displayed a pretty good (not great, but pretty good) arm and played well for a good team (Michigan). Plus he's intelligeent. Sometimes guys don't play like you'd expect. What can you do? It was reasonable assumption in April 1995. Again, I disagree with the phrase "reasonable assumption". The right approach when giving a young and totally unproven NFL player (college football is a great game, but the play at the QB position simply does not translate well to the pros) his shot is to make sure that there is an insurance policy in place -- in this case a veteran QB -- so that the other 52 guys on the team aren't hung out to dry. It is hardly a secret that QB in the NFL is a difficult position to play with competence, let alone with great success. Furthermore, young QBs mostly fail. That is no slight to Collins; it's just reality. Thus, it is not a "reasonable assumption" to assume that your young QB prospect will simply be successful because you drafted him high in a draft. Exactly. 1995 was supposed to be the best QB class since 1983. Even in retrospect, Collins was the 3rd best QB in that mirage of a class. I'd put him lower than 3rd. Kelly Holcomb wasn't even drafted and was a better QB.
keepthefaith Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 Two NFL sources say the Bills offered a third-round draft pick for Gonzalez. Sources also say that Peterson refused to budge off his asking price, reported to be a No. 2 and a No. 5. If he was going to part with the face of the franchise it would be for what he considered commensurate return. The Bills declined to meet the price. It took them two No. 1s, a No. 2, a No. 3 and a No. 5 to get the quarterback they were after. But they wouldn’t spend a No. 2 and a No. 5 on a Hall of Fame tight end capable of maximizing that quarterback’s talents while simultaneously diverting attention from the wideout they just signed to a lucrative extension. Look at it this way: Gonzalez could have been a Bill for the premium they paid to acquire Losman. http://www.buffalonews.com/opinion/columns...ory/463948.html I'm surprised he didn't blame the McCargo flop on JP as well.
Sisyphean Bills Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 I'm surprised he didn't blame the McCargo flop on JP as well. Clearly, they should have.
dave mcbride Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 Again, I disagree with the phrase "reasonable assumption". The right approach when giving a young and totally unproven NFL player (college football is a great game, but the play at the QB position simply does not translate well to the pros) his shot is to make sure that there is an insurance policy in place -- in this case a veteran QB -- so that the other 52 guys on the team aren't hung out to dry. It is hardly a secret that QB in the NFL is a difficult position to play with competence, let alone with great success. Furthermore, young QBs mostly fail. That is no slight to Collins; it's just reality. Thus, it is not a "reasonable assumption" to assume that your young QB prospect will simply be successful because you drafted him high in a draft. I'd put him lower than 3rd. Kelly Holcomb wasn't even drafted and was a better QB. I guess I'm not understanding your point. Kelly played for two more years after he arrived, and would probably have played for a third if it hadn't been for the injuries. Doesn't that qualify as an insurance policy (albeit in reverse of what you're positing)? Also, I'm not clear why a choice made in 1995 wasn't "reasonable" because of a failure two years later to land a veteran QB. (Actually, they did bring in Hobert, but we know how that turned out.)
GG Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 I'd put him lower than 3rd. Kelly Holcomb wasn't even drafted and was a better QB. You knock Collins' arm as a factor, yet bring up Holcomb as supporting your case? Collins' biggest drawback is the lack of desire to be the NO. 1 guy. That's how he handled himself here and throughout his career. As far as QB ability, he beats Holcomb hands down.
Nanker Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 Peterson's a complete ass. He absolutely tortured Trent Green before finally making the trade with Dieami. He finally relented at the last moment when he was at the point of having to cut him and receiving no compensation. TG's story is different - slightly. Peterson just sat on his hands during "negotiations" and ended up keeping the player. Can't help but think that their handsome brilliant coach Sperm Edwards is all too happy to screw The Bills in whatever way possible too.
Sisyphean Bills Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 I guess I'm not understanding your point. Kelly played for two more years after he arrived, and would probably have played for a third if it hadn't been for the injuries. Doesn't that qualify as an insurance policy (albeit in reverse of what you're positing)? Also, I'm not clear why a choice made in 1995 wasn't "reasonable" because of a failure two years later to land a veteran QB. (Actually, they did bring in Hobert, but we know how that turned out.) No worries. It's a minor semantics quibble. I would just say that banking on Collins to succeed and lead a veteran, playoff caliber team was a seriously big gamble. Gambles are not "reasonable". They are just risks taken and this one did not work out and led to some rough times for this franchise. If I was Marv or Butler, I wouldn't have "assumed" he'd have been successful. Now, it may have been the case that no veteran QBs were willing to come to Buffalo at the time, so they were forced to double down with their bets and take another flier on another unproven QB in Billy Joe Hobert. Still, the Bills were a playoff team and a contender at the time, so it seems unlikely that nobody would be interested at all. Either way, whether they were forced to take the risk or they wholeheartedly jumped at the chance, it did not work out, and it not working out was actually the most reasonable consequence given the statistics of such situations. You knock Collins' arm as a factor, yet bring up Holcomb as supporting your case? There is no inconsistency at all. I never said Kelly "Noodle Arm" Holcomb had a better arm than Collins. I said he was a better QB. Holcomb had some success as a starter in the NFL. Collins' biggest drawback is the lack of desire to be the NO. 1 guy. That's how he handled himself here and throughout his career. As far as QB ability, he beats Holcomb hands down. I can't cut so fine a distinction. What good is a QB with "ability" who doesn't show the leadership or moxie to want to get on the field and play? Not much at all, in my book. That's why Holcomb is a better overall QB, as was Kordell Stewart, Kerry Collins, and Steve McNair to name some off the top of my head.
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 So you're a fan of the Jet/Redskin/Dallas approach? How about put together a "team" that tries to win the Superbowl for the next decade; that's what I'd prefer to see. So I'm assuming you're not a fan of the Marcus Stroud trade. There's a difference between the Redskins approach, cramming a bunch of random, overpaid veterans onto a roster, tossing them into a blender and hoping against hope something tasty is the result...and already having a core group of young talent that will have a large window, and adding a couple of strong veteran pieces here and there to fill in the gaps. Tony Gonzalez is a gamer, having appeared in 156 of the Chiefs 158 games since being drafted. He's a great locker room, high-character guy, and perhaps best of all, the number one thing on his mind right now is WINNING. He's still close to his prime, as evidenced by his 99 catch, 1172 yard season just last year. He is everything you look for in a guy to fill that veteran-amongst-a-bunch-of-youngsters type of roll. Three years of his services seem well worth an anonymous 2nd round rookie to me. We've already set ourselves up beautifully for the future. This was a chance to improve our standing for the right now.
Beerball Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 Anonymous NFL source says TG nixed Buffalo. An NFL source told the Journal Sentinel that the Bills weren’t a factor because Gonzalez didn’t want to play for them. We'll never know. Nudder one: True? Eff him!
BB2004 Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 I like Tony G, but you overpay on a young player with potential (like JP), not on a player who's looking forward to retirement. If there's someone who's screwed up this deal, it's Peterson. He should have been happy with a third rounder and freeing up the cap space to sign more people next offseason. Hell he probably could have negotiated a third rounder that bumps up to second if certain milestones were reached by Tony. Credit to the Bills for having a plan and sticking with it, not getting desperate and going above what they wanted. That is a good point and a good way to look at it. If it is true however, that we had a legitamite chance to get Gonzalez for a second only I think it would have been a good deal. Also, because we got a 4th round pick for McCargo it would really only be a 2nd round pick if you look at it from that side. I think if we made this move, it would have been a good one.
Bleed Bills Blue Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 I think we can put the "Gonzales blocked the trade to Buffalo" item to rest. Bills blinked, my foot. Ha...of the 51,000 people who voted in that poll 89% thought Gonzalez should have been dealt for a 3rd rounder. What a boneheaded non-move. And if TG indeed did not want to play in Buffalo...well, it's your loss, pal. You'll play here soon enough and will see first hand what you'll be missing.
PromoTheRobot Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 It's not fair for Bob DiCesare to compare the JP Losman trade-up with what the Chiefs were looking for. Is the package they paid for Losman high? Obviously, but it's not an unreasonable package to pay for the guy you think is the QB of your future. Teams pay the right price and whiff all of the time. So Diceasare's point was we overpaid before, why not overpay again? Everyone also likes to forget about the risk of trading for an older player. PTR
The Senator Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 So Diceasare's point was we overpaid before, why not overpay again? Everyone also likes to forget about the risk of trading for an older player. PTR Yeah, that's pretty much it - and it'd give him and Jerky Stupidvan something to whine about for the next few years.
GG Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 There is no inconsistency at all. I never said Kelly "Noodle Arm" Holcomb had a better arm than Collins. I said he was a better QB. Holcomb had some success as a starter in the NFL. I can't cut so fine a distinction. What good is a QB with "ability" who doesn't show the leadership or moxie to want to get on the field and play? Not much at all, in my book. That's why Holcomb is a better overall QB, as was Kordell Stewart, Kerry Collins, and Steve McNair to name some off the top of my head. Collins also exhibited success as a starter in the NFL. His days were clouded by a premature Kelly retirement and a bad Bills offense. Collins' ability to lead an NFL team were on display last year. Holcomb had some success as a starter in the same vein as Billy Joe Bob Playbook for two games. I wouldn't put Todd Collins in the same category as Kerry Collins or McNair, as they're clearly the top QBs from the class. Bottom line, scouting and drafting Todd Collins in 1995 was not a huge gamble by the Bills given what the team was facing with Kelly's impending departure.
Heitz Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 Peter King and the rest of the Sirius NFL crew were ripping KC today for not making the trade. They said it was just another example of Peterson overvaluing his position and sticking to his guns only to get nothing in return... IMO, a total bonehead move on their part and a big reason why they suck.
kota Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 Wow. Stop trying to compare the TD era to the Russ Era. Two different people.
Bleed Bills Blue Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 Anonymous NFL source says TG nixed Buffalo. We'll never know. Nudder one: True? Eff him! I'll temper my hair-trigger, defensive reaction to the idea of TG spurning Buffalo with the thought that, of the five teams reported interested (Buff, GB, NY, AZ and Philly), only Buffalo plays KC later in the season, and in KC to boot. Maybe TG simply didn't want to play against them so soon. Yeah, that's it...nothing personal against Buffalo or the Bills...
Flbillsfan#1 Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 So I'm assuming you're not a fan of the Marcus Stroud trade. There's a difference between the Redskins approach, cramming a bunch of random, overpaid veterans onto a roster, tossing them into a blender and hoping against hope something tasty is the result...and already having a core group of young talent that will have a large window, and adding a couple of strong veteran pieces here and there to fill in the gaps. Tony Gonzalez is a gamer, having appeared in 156 of the Chiefs 158 games since being drafted. He's a great locker room, high-character guy, and perhaps best of all, the number one thing on his mind right now is WINNING. He's still close to his prime, as evidenced by his 99 catch, 1172 yard season just last year. He is everything you look for in a guy to fill that veteran-amongst-a-bunch-of-youngsters type of roll. Three years of his services seem well worth an anonymous 2nd round rookie to me. We've already set ourselves up beautifully for the future. This was a chance to improve our standing for the right now. The Draft is supposed to be VERY good. I can't wait to see who the Bills pick with their #2, he may outplay Gonzalez next year even as a rookie.
Steely Dan Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 Anonymous NFL source says TG nixed Buffalo. We'll never know. Nudder one: True? Eff him! I hope Whitner teaches him a lesson about Buffalo and the playoffs!!
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