bluenews Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 People we got a 3rd and 5th for Stroud a 4th for McCargo is great imo. we gave a 3rd and 5th round draft pick for Marcus Stroud, who plays the game! we received a 4th for a McBench player Sucks when you miss with a 1st rounder!!
dave mcbride Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 When you pass on a blue-chip DT for a safety, then follow that up by trading a high 2nd and 3rd for the rights to a DT who was riding the coat tails of Manny Lawson and Mario Williams, you deserve some criticism. Thanks Marv for hiring a great coach, picking Trent Edwards, and restoring some order to the franchise. But that draft was not a good one. You certainly win the debate on McCargo. That said - and as I think you allude to - the QB position is by far and away the most important on the team, and if Edwards continues his upward trajectory (a big if), it could go down as one of the Bills' greatest picks ever considering where he was selected. If you had any doubt about the importance of the QB position, take a look at the recent career of the team that drafted Ngata.
robkmil Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 we gave a 3rd and 5th round draft pick for Marcus Stroud, who plays the game! we received a 4th for a McBench player Sucks when you miss with a 1st rounder!! its better thab cutting him for nothing
Steely Dan Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 When you pass on a blue-chip DT for a safety, then follow that up by trading a high 2nd and 3rd for the rights to a DT who was riding the coat tails of Manny Lawson and Mario Williams, you deserve some criticism. Thanks Marv for hiring a great coach, picking Trent Edwards, and restoring some order to the franchise. But that draft was not a good one. Hit's and misses IMO. 1 8 Donte Whitner SS Ohio State (Hit no problem where he was taken) 1 26 John McCargo DT North Carolina State (Miss) 3 70 Ashton Youboty CB Ohio State (Hit. Took some time but a hit.) 4 105 Ko Simpson FS South Carolina (Injured tough to give a firm grade but I say hit.) 5 134 Kyle Williams DT Louisiana State (Big time hit. Outplayed McCargo and is now a starter. If he and McCargo had changed places in the draft order I don't think too many people would be complaining now.) 5 143 Brad Butler T Virginia (Starting right guard I'd say a hit.) 6 178 Keith Ellison OLB Oregon State (Decent backup. Hit) 7 216 Terrance Pennington T New Mexico (Miss) 7 248 Aaron Merz G California (Miss) So six of nine hits. 3 Starters on a 4-1 team and 3 solid backups. What more can you expect?
ieatcrayonz Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 Who says the NFL is considered publicly owned? Federal law
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 When you pass on a blue-chip DT for a safety, then follow that up by trading a high 2nd and 3rd for the rights to a DT who was riding the coat tails of Manny Lawson and Mario Williams, you deserve some criticism. Thanks Marv for hiring a great coach, picking Trent Edwards, and restoring some order to the franchise. But that draft was not a good one. Talk about retarded. From the 2006 draft, the Bills have 4 starters on a 4-1 football team (Whitner, Butler, Williams, and Ellison). Seriously, how many other starters do you want? That is as good of a draft that the Bills have had in at least 10 years, if not longer. Maybe McCargo is a bust (I still won't say that and I would have keep him for depth purposes alone) but shouldn't Marv also get credit for drafting a starting DT in the 5th round? I swear some people would be rather be right than see the Bills be successful. As a Bills fan, that's pitiful.
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 Hit's and misses IMO. 1 8 Donte Whitner SS Ohio State (Hit no problem where he was taken) 1 26 John McCargo DT North Carolina State (Miss) 3 70 Ashton Youboty CB Ohio State (Hit. Took some time but a hit.) 4 105 Ko Simpson FS South Carolina (Injured tough to give a firm grade but I say hit.) 5 134 Kyle Williams DT Louisiana State (Big time hit. Outplayed McCargo and is now a starter. If he and McCargo had changed places in the draft order I don't think too many people would be complaining now.) 5 143 Brad Butler T Virginia (Starting right guard I'd say a hit.) 6 178 Keith Ellison OLB Oregon State (Decent backup. Hit) 7 216 Terrance Pennington T New Mexico (Miss) 7 248 Aaron Merz G California (Miss) So six of nine hits. 3 Starters on a 4-1 team and 3 solid backups. What more can you expect? Obviously if one pick isn't great, it completely cancels out the entire draft.
BLZFAN4LIFE Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 What a D*ck comment. As if "other teams" get it right all the time. As if "other teams" are never disappointed that some guys turn out to be lazy. Marv deserves respect, even if it's from a-holes who don't deserve any themselves. Yea, I'd like to have gotten more than a 4th round pick, but the guy wasn't able to see the field much, which says enough. First, don't make any comments on the Internet that you wouldn't make in person because I guarantee you wouldn't dare take that tone with me if I were standing in front of you. Second, I hold Marv Levy in very high regard. Mainly for his years as a HC in Buffalo. As GM (and clearly Dick Jauron had significant input into the decisions) Marv has had mixed results. Overall I would say that his two years as GM were successful, but they weren't infallible like some people would like to think. Trading up to get McCargo was probably the most costly mistake that Marv made. It's not just in hind sight either. A lot of people felt that McCargo was going to go in the late 2nd to early 3rd round. We probably didn't even have to trade up and waste draft picks to get him. So if I throw in a sarcastic line about Marv botching this deal, don't get your panties tight. I think that Marv had two pretty good drafts. '06 was a little heavy on DB's for my taste, but I can live with that. '07's top 3 picks were outstanding. Marv had mixed results in FA as well. He brought in Craig Nall, Larry Tripplett, and Robert Royal thinking that these were players that were on the verge of becoming solid starters. Nall couldn't even compete with JP, Tripplett sucked, and we are still in need of a real Tight End. I do give Marv credit for bringing in Walker and Dockery. OL was obviously a glaring need and he filled the need with what was available. It's on the coaching staff to get these guys to run block. As for the 4th round pick, I'll take it. I do like the message that is sent to the rest of the team by trading McCargone. Shape up or ship out!
Orton's Arm Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 Talk about retarded. From the 2006 draft, the Bills have 4 starters on a 4-1 football team (Whitner, Butler, Williams, and Ellison). Seriously, how many other starters do you want? That is as good of a draft that the Bills have had in at least 10 years, if not longer. Maybe McCargo is a bust (I still won't say that and I would have keep him for depth purposes alone) but shouldn't Marv also get credit for drafting a starting DT in the 5th round? I swear some people would be rather be right than see the Bills be successful. As a Bills fan, that's pitiful. I take a somewhat less optimistic view of that draft than you. Of the four players you mentioned as "starters," how many are really starting quality? Is Keith Ellison really what you want your OLB to be? I'd label both Ellison and Brad Butler as guys who are decent backups (or a good backup, in Butler's case), but who aren't good enough to be long-term answers at their respective positions. Kyle Williams is having a good year this year--much better than last year, in fact. If he keeps this up, then yes, he will have earned the solid starter label. A draft that gives you two solid starters (Williams and Whitner), and some solid backups type players (Ellison, Butler, Youboty, etc.) is a good draft. But make no mistake--this team still has players who need to be upgraded, and Ellison and Butler are two of those players.
Captain Hindsight Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 First, don't make any comments on the Internet that you wouldn't make in person because I guarantee you wouldn't dare take that tone with me if I were standing in front of you. Second, I hold Marv Levy in very high regard. Mainly for his years as a HC in Buffalo. As GM (and clearly Dick Jauron had significant input into the decisions) Marv has had mixed results. Overall I would say that his two years as GM were successful, but they weren't infallible like some people would like to think. Trading up to get McCargo was probably the most costly mistake that Marv made. It's not just in hind sight either. A lot of people felt that McCargo was going to go in the late 2nd to early 3rd round. We probably didn't even have to trade up and waste draft picks to get him. So if I throw in a sarcastic line about Marv botching this deal, don't get your panties tight. I think that Marv had two pretty good drafts. '06 was a little heavy on DB's for my taste, but I can live with that. '07's top 3 picks were outstanding. Marv had mixed results in FA as well. He brought in Craig Nall, Larry Tripplett, and Robert Royal thinking that these were players that were on the verge of becoming solid starters. Nall couldn't even compete with JP, Tripplett sucked, and we are still in need of a real Tight End. I do give Marv credit for bringing in Walker and Dockery. OL was obviously a glaring need and he filled the need with what was available. It's on the coaching staff to get these guys to run block. As for the 4th round pick, I'll take it. I do like the message that is sent to the rest of the team by trading McCargone. Shape up or ship out! Marv as a GM gave the bills a plan and a direction. He bult the teams foundation and made smart moves instead of sexy hires. Hiring DJ and drafting Whitner even tho not popular at the time have proved to be good moves that have made this team a contender within three years. He rebuilt the offensive line, drafted the leader of the defense and it looks like one of the better young quarterbacks in the NFL He wasnt perfect as a GM and hindsight is always 20/20 but i was estatic when He took the job. I knew we would have a plan and not just empty promises and that is awesome IMO
Orton's Arm Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 Marv had mixed results in FA as well. He brought in Craig Nall, Larry Tripplett, and Robert Royal thinking that these were players that were on the verge of becoming solid starters. Nall couldn't even compete with JP, Tripplett sucked, and we are still in need of a real Tight End. I do give Marv credit for bringing in Walker and Dockery. OL was obviously a glaring need and he filled the need with what was available. It's on the coaching staff to get these guys to run block. Marv had his share of outright free agent failures, including Triplett, Peerless Price, Whittle, and Fowler. Robert Royal is a good blocking TE who never evolved into a good pass catching threat. The Walker and Dockery signings looked better last year than they have this year. I don't know that you can point to a single one of Marv's free agent signings and say, "This guy was a slam-dunk success." It's possible some of the guys he signed--such as Dockery and Walker--could become indisputable success stories by improving the quality and consistency of their play. But as of right now, I think you'd have to say that Marv's success stories came from the draft, not from free agency.
Captain Hindsight Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 I take a somewhat less optimistic view of that draft than you. Of the four players you mentioned as "starters," how many are really starting quality? Is Keith Ellison really what you want your OLB to be? I'd label both Ellison and Brad Butler as guys who are decent backups (or a good backup, in Butler's case), but who aren't good enough to be long-term answers at their respective positions. Kyle Williams is having a good year this year--much better than last year, in fact. If he keeps this up, then yes, he will have earned the solid starter label. A draft that gives you two solid starters (Williams and Whitner), and some solid backups type players (Ellison, Butler, Youboty, etc.) is a good draft. But make no mistake--this team still has players who need to be upgraded, and Ellison and Butler are two of those players. Not every player can be a hall of famer
Sisyphean Bills Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 Hmm. I thought McCargo was in the group of players that "can only improve." I guess his undeniable improvement will occur somewhere else. Masters of building from the steeple down...
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 Marv had his share of outright free agent failures, including Triplett, Peerless Price, Whittle, and Fowler. Robert Royal is a good blocking TE who never evolved into a good pass catching threat. The Walker and Dockery signings looked better last year than they have this year. I don't know that you can point to a single one of Marv's free agent signings and say, "This guy was a slam-dunk success." It's possible some of the guys he signed--such as Dockery and Walker--could become indisputable success stories by improving the quality and consistency of their play. But as of right now, I think you'd have to say that Marv's success stories came from the draft, not from free agency. No one is gonna have a perfect record on all signings and draftings. The fact is this is a young team, with a ton of cap room, and a 4-1 record with a very realistic shot at the playoffs. The fact that the Bills can get a franchise-type (fingers crossed) QB in the 3rd round completely trumps McCargo. Would people be singing the praises of the Pats* drafts if they didn't land Brady in the 6th????
Rico Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 When you pass on a blue-chip DT for a safety, then follow that up by trading a high 2nd and 3rd for the rights to a DT who was riding the coat tails of Manny Lawson and Mario Williams, you deserve some criticism. Thanks Marv for hiring a great coach, picking Trent Edwards, and restoring some order to the franchise. But that draft was not a good one. I'd say overall it was a good draft & I think Youboty will prove to be the stud, sky's the limit for him. Lil' Donte is decent, reminds me more & more of Lil' Antoine each week. McCargo was a huge blunder, but at least I give them credit for dumping him now instead of waiting any longer for him to turn around. Good teams cut their losses in time & move on, + a late 4th-rounder for him is a steal. Williams impresses next to Stroud, Ko (somewhat) & Butler have disappointed but I think both still have plenty of upside. Ellison shouldn't be starting, but he's decent depth. Almost 2 - 1/2 years later, I'd give it a solid B, even with the McCargo fiasco... would've downgraded it if he was still in their plans.
Fewell733 Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 Hit's and misses IMO. 1 8 Donte Whitner SS Ohio State (Hit no problem where he was taken) 1 26 John McCargo DT North Carolina State (Miss) 3 70 Ashton Youboty CB Ohio State (Hit. Took some time but a hit.) 4 105 Ko Simpson FS South Carolina (Injured tough to give a firm grade but I say hit.) 5 134 Kyle Williams DT Louisiana State (Big time hit. Outplayed McCargo and is now a starter. If he and McCargo had changed places in the draft order I don't think too many people would be complaining now.) 5 143 Brad Butler T Virginia (Starting right guard I'd say a hit.) 6 178 Keith Ellison OLB Oregon State (Decent backup. Hit) 7 216 Terrance Pennington T New Mexico (Miss) 7 248 Aaron Merz G California (Miss) So six of nine hits. 3 Starters on a 4-1 team and 3 solid backups. What more can you expect? 4 to 5 starters Whitner, Simpson, Williams, Butler, and now Ellison
DanInUticaTampa Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 Which law? The NFL is a 501©(6) that doesn't mean they are private and not public. that just means they cheat on their taxes. but i also think they are a private company. I can't be sure though
BLZFAN4LIFE Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 Marv had his share of outright free agent failures, including Triplett, Peerless Price, Whittle, and Fowler. Robert Royal is a good blocking TE who never evolved into a good pass catching threat. The Walker and Dockery signings looked better last year than they have this year. I don't know that you can point to a single one of Marv's free agent signings and say, "This guy was a slam-dunk success." It's possible some of the guys he signed--such as Dockery and Walker--could become indisputable success stories by improving the quality and consistency of their play. But as of right now, I think you'd have to say that Marv's success stories came from the draft, not from free agency. I definitely agree that Marv 's drafts were far more successful than his FA signings. Walker and Dockery were much needed upgrades and I agree that they do need to improve their play, particularly run blocking.
Steely Dan Posted October 15, 2008 Posted October 15, 2008 Talk about retarded. From the 2006 draft, the Bills have 4 starters on a 4-1 football team (Whitner, Butler, Williams, and Ellison). Seriously, how many other starters do you want? That is as good of a draft that the Bills have had in at least 10 years, if not longer. Maybe McCargo is a bust (I still won't say that and I would have keep him for depth purposes alone) but shouldn't Marv also get credit for drafting a starting DT in the 5th round? I swear some people would be rather be right than see the Bills be successful. As a Bills fan, that's pitiful. 'Nuff said. Obviously if one pick isn't great, it completely cancels out the entire draft. See above. Marv as a GM gave the bills a plan and a direction. He bult the teams foundation and made smart moves instead of sexy hires. Hiring DJ and drafting Whitner even tho not popular at the time have proved to be good moves that have made this team a contender within three years. He rebuilt the offensive line, drafted the leader of the defense and it looks like one of the better young quarterbacks in the NFL He wasnt perfect as a GM and hindsight is always 20/20 but i was estatic when He took the job. I knew we would have a plan and not just empty promises and that is awesome IMO Don't put logic into a thread like this.
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