Those blaming JP....??

[FreakPop]

They were also on the bench because they failed to sustain drives when they had the ball.

The Bill's offense is the first that has failed to kill the Cardinals defense.

As the season wears on I think it will become clear that the Arizona defense is swiss cheese and that Buffalo's offense failed to take advantage.

Care to challenge that forecast?

 

The best defense is sustaining drives and scoring points.....IE the NY Jets.

Arizona moved the ball against NY too, it's clear that they have a powerhouse offense and a porous defense.

17 isn't near enough, you need a shootout to beat them.

Best case for the Bill's vs Arizona is ball control sustained drives that score TDs...... think Trent Edwards....they had good reason to make him the starter.

 

 

Dude your clueless! Go back to your moms basement!

[The Dean]

They were also on the bench because they failed to sustain drives when they had the ball.

The Bill's offense is the first that has failed to kill the Cardinals defense.

As the season wears on I think it will become clear that the Arizona defense is swiss cheese and that Buffalo's offense failed to take advantage.

Care to challenge that forecast?

 

The best defense is sustaining drives and scoring points.....IE the NY Jets.

Arizona moved the ball against NY too, it's clear that they have a powerhouse offense and a porous defense.

17 isn't near enough, you need a shootout to beat them.

Best case for the Bill's vs Arizona is ball control sustained drives that score TDs...... think Trent Edwards....they had good reason to make him the starter.

 

 

OK, as this is getting tedious, and as it's obvious to me that some here simply aren't open to the fact that the defense played extremely poorly yesterday, and it is unlikely that Trent's presence in the game would have changed that. I think that, since the D was terrible in both halves, was terrible when rested, was terrible after the Bills had a sustained drive. that one can infer the D was simply terrible yesterday.

 

But, if you want to play word games, then sure JP, and every Bill that played on Sunday, is responsible for the loss. This, of course, includes Trent, who didn't properly read the blitz and move, to avoid the hit. Taking the hit in that situation (and completing the pass) is courageous and praise-worthy. But, it isn't smart, and, at least according to many, hurt the team, as he had to leave the game. So, YES, all the players and the coaches share some responsibility in this loss.

 

But, I think the question most of us are asking is. "Would the Bills have won this game if Trent finished the game?" The answer seems obvious: "Almost certainly not." We have pretty much established that the Bills D wasn't stopping the Cards on this day. Even you admit that it was likely to be a shootout. Now, let me just say that I am a big fan of Trent Edwards, and have come to appreciate what he has done in such a short period of time. But, I also know how to read, and process information, so i don't let my admiration for Trent lead me to unlikely conclusions.

 

Are those blaming JP (primarily) for the loss, suggesting that it is likely that Trent Edwards is accomplished at winning shootout, high scoring games? Even in this, his second season, it is clear that he has won by managing the game, and has been helped, in every game, by some terrific defensive and/or ST plays. Certainly Trent has stepped up big late in the game, and lead the team to victory in comeback style. But, none of those comebacks involved putting up major points throughout the game. That is what would have been needed to win this game.

 

So, since I don't think the Bills would have won this game, with their #1 QB at the helm, I don't blame the #2 QB for the loss. But, if you are suggesting that JP isn't one of the best QBs in the league, and there are, perhaps, a handful of QBs that might have been able to QB this team to victory, you are correct.

 

Happy?

[JimmyPage]

OK, as this is getting tedious, and as it's obvious to me that some here simply aren't open to the fact that the defense played extremely poorly yesterday, and it is unlikely that Trent's presence in the game would have changed that. I think that, since the D was terrible in both halves, was terrible when rested, was terrible after the Bills had a sustained drive. that one can infer the D was simply terrible yesterday.

 

But, if you want to play word games, then sure JP, and every Bill that played on Sunday, is responsible for the loss. This, of course, includes Trent, who didn't properly read the blitz and move, to avoid the hit. Taking the hit in that situation (and completing the pass) is courageous and praise-worthy. But, it isn't smart, and, at least according to many, hurt the team, as he had to leave the game. So, YES, all the players and the coaches share some responsibility in this loss.

 

But, I think the question most of us are asking is. "Would the Bills have won this game if Trent finished the game?" The answer seems obvious: "Almost certainly not." We have pretty much established that the Bills D wasn't stopping the Cards on this day. Even you admit that it was likely to be a shootout. Now, let me just say that I am a big fan of Trent Edwards, and have come to appreciate what he has done in such a short period of time. But, I also know how to read, and process information, so i don't let my admiration for Trent lead me to unlikely conclusions.

 

Are those blaming JP (primarily) for the loss, suggesting that it is likely that Trent Edwards is accomplished at winning shootout, high scoring games? Even in this, his second season, it is clear that he has won by managing the game, and has been helped, in every game, by some terrific defensive and/or ST plays. Certainly Trent has stepped up big late in the game, and lead the team to victory in comeback style. But, none of those comebacks involved putting up major points throughout the game. That is what would have been needed to win this game.

 

So, since I don't think the Bills would have won this game, with their #1 QB at the helm, I don't blame the #2 QB for the loss. But, if you are suggesting that JP isn't one of the best QBs in the league, and there are, perhaps, a handful of QBs that might have been able to QB this team to victory, you are correct.

 

Happy?

I'll go along with most of that.

 

But I also cannot overlook the obvious, 17 points against Arizona seems putrid.

Even that isn't all Losman, the blocking in general and our supposed all pro running back didn't do much either.

But the point that I am making with Losman is, expect even less vs good defenses.

How do you like the prospect of a Losman lead offense scoring less than 14 in most games?

Because that is what scoring only 17 vs Arizona promises.

 

Keep in mind that there are games where you need 30+ points.

Does it occur to anyone that if Buffalo puts together some drives, Arizona doesn't score 41 points?

 

To me Arizona looks like one of those teams that is going score big most of the season, in the same mold as Indy and New England in recent years.

But they have a poor defense and decent offenses will certainty score more than 17 on Arizona.

[apuszczalowski]

I'll go along with most of that.

 

But I also cannot overlook the obvious, 17 points against Arizona seems putrid.

Even that isn't all Losman, the blocking in general and our supposed all pro running back didn't do much either.

But the point that I am making with Losman is, expect even less vs good defenses.

How do you like the prospect of a Losman lead offense scoring less than 14 in most games?

Because that is what scoring only 17 vs Arizona promises.

Keep in mind that there are games where you need 30+ points.

Does it occur to anyone that if Buffalo puts together some drives, Arizona doesn't score 41 points?

 

To me Arizona looks like one of those teams that is going score big most of the season, in the same mold as Indy and New England in recent years.

But they have a poor defense and decent offenses will certainty score more than 17 on Arizona.

So does scoring only 31 against the Rams (and most of that in 4th quarter heroics) I believe the bills were the first team to actually let the Rams lead for any part of a game. Teams were outscoring and putting up huge yards against the Rams D. Why no talk about the Edwards led offence not being able to put up huge numbers against the leagues worst defence.

 

Not all of those 56 total points that the Jets scored were against the Cards defence, they scored some of them against the offence. Their defence isn't horrible, that game against the Jets only looked so bad because the offence kept putting the defence back on the field after turning the ball over so many times

[JimmyPage]

So does scoring only 31 against the Rams (and most of that in 4th quarter heroics) I believe the bills were the first team to actually let the Rams lead for any part of a game. Teams were outscoring and putting up huge yards against the Rams D. Why no talk about the Edwards led offence not being able to put up huge numbers against the leagues worst defence.

 

Not all of those 56 total points that the Jets scored were against the Cards defence, they scored some of them against the offence. Their defence isn't horrible, that game against the Jets only looked so bad because the offence kept putting the defence back on the field after turning the ball over so many times

I feel confident in saying that time will prove that this Arizona defense is putrud.

Do you mind if we revisit this post in a few weeks?

 

Your 'point' about scoring 31 points vs St Louis supports my argument more than is discredits it.

31 points is what we need to see vs these putrid defenses, not a paltry 17.

Certainly they could have done even more than scoring 31 (24 on offense)

Bear in mind Losman is a 5th year QB putting up 17 vs Arizona.

Edwards is a 2nd year QB making 4th quarter comebacks.

What do you think Edwards will be capable of in his 5th year?

[fakeeyed]

I'll go along with most of that.

 

But I also cannot overlook the obvious, 17 points against Arizona seems putrid.

Even that isn't all Losman, the blocking in general and our supposed all pro running back didn't do much either.

But the point that I am making with Losman is, expect even less vs good defenses.

How do you like the prospect of a Losman lead offense scoring less than 14 in most games?

Because that is what scoring only 17 vs Arizona promises.

 

Keep in mind that there are games where you need 30+ points.

Does it occur to anyone that if Buffalo puts together some drives, Arizona doesn't score 41 points?

 

To me Arizona looks like one of those teams that is going score big most of the season, in the same mold as Indy and New England in recent years.

But they have a poor defense and decent offenses will certainty score more than 17 on Arizona.

 

in all fairness...the losman led offense suffered from huge fumbles (handoff and royal) that weren't his fault. so theres two turnovers, the royal turnover costing the team a lot of momentum after they had scored in each of the 3 previous drives.

 

so after all of that, if the defense kept it close...the team wouldnt have had to go into panic mode at the end of the game, in obvious passing situations where both jp and the rest of the team looked bad. most teams look pretty sh------- when they're playing from behind a rather large amount.

[Flbillsfan#1]

I'll go along with most of that.

 

But I also cannot overlook the obvious, 17 points against Arizona seems putrid.

Even that isn't all Losman, the blocking in general and our supposed all pro running back didn't do much either.

But the point that I am making with Losman is, expect even less vs good defenses.

How do you like the prospect of a Losman lead offense scoring less than 14 in most games?

Because that is what scoring only 17 vs Arizona promises.

 

Keep in mind that there are games where you need 30+ points.

Does it occur to anyone that if Buffalo puts together some drives, Arizona doesn't score 41 points?

 

To me Arizona looks like one of those teams that is going score big most of the season, in the same mold as Indy and New England in recent years.

But they have a poor defense and decent offenses will certainty score more than 17 on Arizona.

Keep in mind, other than the 1st game, Trent did not put up many points either. The Bills benefited from the defense & special teams playing well & SCORING the last 3 games. They did not do that against the Cards.

[apuszczalowski]

I feel confident in saying that time will prove that this Arizona defense is putrud.

Do you mind if we revisit this post in a few weeks?

 

Your 'point' about scoring 31 points vs St Louis supports my argument more than is discredits it.

31 points is what we need to see vs these putrid defenses, not a paltry 17.

Certainly they could have done even more than scoring 31 (24 on offense)

Bear in mind Losman is a 5th year QB putting up 17 vs Arizona.

Edwards is a 2nd year QB making 4th quarter comebacks.

What do you think Edwards will be capable of in his 5th year?

Sure, we can revist it

 

I don't think it really helps your arguement

 

The Rams defence is giving up 36.8 points per game, and 411.8 yards per game. They are ranked in the bottom 2 of the league after this weeks games (this week was their bye so it skews the placement a little since some teams have played one more game)

 

Buffalo's 31 points total, was the least amount of points given up by the Rams this year (they gave up 38 to the Eagles, 41 to the Giants, and 37 to Seattle). Taking out the Bills game, they were giving up 38.7 points a game, almost a touch down more then what the Bills team put up on them. The Bills 277 total yards were less then what the Rams had given up to the rest of the teams they faced this year too. (522 to Philly, 441 to NYG, 407 to Seattle). The Rams had never had a lead in a game until they faced the Bills

 

Say what you want about Losman and the bills offence not being able to put up big yards on a middle of the pact Cards defence, but Just the week before they helped the Rams defensive ranking by improving their average Yards given up per game and points scored against. The Bills offence needed some late game heroics to defeat the leagues worst ranked defence, thats not exactly something to brag about or use to try and make a point that someone/something is better.

[Adam]

I disagree. I think we would have had a more productive day on O, giving the Cards fewer kicks at the cat. The result may have still been the same...a loss. But the score would surely have been different.

Yes, we probably would have been more productive with our starter instead of our backup. But we didn't protect our starter- that isn't JP's fault. I'm sure he did what he could

[SageAgainstTheMachine]

I don't think any of us knows him well enough to say he is a nice guy.

And he is not an above average QB, at least not in the NFL he isn't.

 

He's devoted to the city of Buffalo, said he wanted to clean up the streets, and he interacts with the fans at training camp perhaps more than any other player.

 

And I'd be interested in your opinion on all these backup QB's that are so much better than JP. Let's look to the AFC east. Kellen Clemons? Cleo Lemon? Matt Gutierrez?

 

Or would you rather see Kyle Boller in there? Maybe Jared Lorenzen? How about Charlie Frye?

 

Who are these NFL backup QB's that are better than JP?

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

I was a JP supporter up until last year, so I'm not saying this as trying to knock him, or praise him, I certainly think TE is clearly the better choice now. In his defense, he didn't practice much the past week as being the backup. He did score 17 points, which isn't bad for a second stringer QB. His second half was horrible, one one hand you can argue that Az had their ears pinned back and blitzed the hell out of him. On the other hand typically when a team is way up in the 4th quater, the losing team can pile up big yards as the leading team is in the "typical bend, but don't break" mode, however that didn't happen here. JP played like a typical backup and there's a reason for it, that's about all he's capable of. For those predicting next year JP will go elsewhere and be a sucess, in my opinion Sunday's game was more evidence that that isn't likely to happen.

 

For those knocking him for what he did as a back-up are way off base, he did fine, AS A BACKUP. For those expecting great things of him next season, what you saw Sunday is likely what you'll see next year in some other stadium.

 

And BTW if for some reason he was willing to sign with Buffalo next year as a backup, I'd take him as he still is better than many teams 2nd stringer. In fact even as bad as he played Sunday, he still is better than some teams starters, but only cause many teams have a terrible 1st string QB

[Orton's Arm]

Ok, lets see if anyone agrees with this:

 

TE makes faster reads and gets the ball out more quickly. IMO, that would have led to fewer sacks and more completions that would have made the defense back off the line and make the RB's more productive.

 

It also would have kept the D off the field more. It would have been a shootout because the D wasn't playing well but TE would have kept up with the points better and wouldn't have choked in the fourth quarter.

 

If you accept that then it's not out of the question to give JP a lot of blame for this loss. His pass to Evans isn't anything TE couldn't have done in fact he's done it with Lee several times this year.

 

IMO, with JP in there the Cards were able to stack the line and pass rush continuously and that also helped in stopping the run.

 

[sarc]Anyone who doesn't agree with me is a retard who knows nothing about football because my intellect is soooooo superior to anyone else's here. [/sarc]

You bring up valid points about the differences between Trent and Losman. But I disagree with anyone who thinks we were a quarterback away from winning that game.

 

Kurt Warner played a masterful game on Sunday. He ate our defense for breakfast (or it may have been lunch). The Cards had eight drives where they were trying to score points. (After that they were just trying to run out the clock.) Of those eight drives, they scored a TD on five of them and FGs on another two.

 

The reason no QB--not even Joe Montana--could have kept up with that kind of pace is because of our offensive line. If you're going to ask our offense to score a TD practically every time it touches the ball--which is what would have had to have happened to have won that game--you have to have good blocking. That certainly didn't happen on the Fowler wiff/resulting fumble. It didn't happen on numerous other times during the game. The combination of poor offensive line play plus a defensive no-show doomed this team to defeat, regardless of who we had back there at QB.

 

That said, I felt Losman's play demonstrated his usual strengths as well as his usual weaknesses. He's good for big plays to his primary receivers. He has a strong arm and good mobility. But he doesn't process information quickly or see his #2 or #3 options very well. With him, it's either a throw to his primary target, or a dump off to someone behind the line of scrimmage. He doesn't sense pressure very well, and there were times when he moved backwards when he should have moved forward. With his athleticism and big play ability, you can see why he's been given so many chances. But his inability to see or process information quickly dooms any chance he might have had to be a successful starting QB in the NFL.

[MRW]

You bring up valid points about the differences between Trent and Losman. But I disagree with anyone who thinks we were a quarterback away from winning that game.

We were. His name was Kurt Warner.

[murra]

We were. His name was Kurt Warner.

 

I know you were making a joke, but I have to disagree. I think our defense made Warner look much better than he really is.

[Orton's Arm]

The Rams defence is giving up 36.8 points per game, and 411.8 yards per game. They are ranked in the bottom 2 of the league after this weeks games (this week was their bye so it skews the placement a little since some teams have played one more game)

 

Buffalo's 31 points total, was the least amount of points given up by the Rams this year (they gave up 38 to the Eagles, 41 to the Giants, and 37 to Seattle). Taking out the Bills game, they were giving up 38.7 points a game, almost a touch down more then what the Bills team put up on them. The Bills 277 total yards were less then what the Rams had given up to the rest of the teams they faced this year too. (522 to Philly, 441 to NYG, 407 to Seattle). The Rams had never had a lead in a game until they faced the Bills

I realize the point of your post was to imply that Losman played at least as well against the Cards as Edwards had against the Rams. But the data you dug up about that Rams defense has other implications.

 

In the first half of that Rams game, the Bills' offensive line had more yards in penalties (at least 20) than the Bills had in rushing yards (18). The offensive line also allowed four sacks--at least three of which were caused by the line failing to even slow the defender down significantly on his way to the QB. In addition to the penalties, sacks, and absence of run blocking, the offensive line allowed numerous hurries and knock-downs.

 

Our line was flat out embarrassed by the Rams in the first half of that game. Our offensive line had mixed play in the second half, with some good moments mixed with some very bad moments. And this wasn't just a Jason Peters problem, because the whole line was responsible for an extremely disappointing performance. If anything, Jason Peters is a bright spot, because there's the thought that he'll stop being part of the problem once he's back in shape. The other four guys don't have that excuse.

 

It's fairly obvious that, thus far this season, the offensive line has been the team's single biggest weakness (by far). But the Rams-related information you provided demonstrated the problem may be even worse than I'd realized. Atrocious line play is bad enough under any circumstances. But having your offensive line get completely humiliated and put to shame by a defense that allows 38 points per game? That's completely unacceptable. Bill from NYC is right: we need to focus on the offensive line in the 2009 draft.

[VOR]

For starters, the Bills' offense scored 24 points against the Rams. The other TD was scored by Greer. And the Rams have a FAR worse defense than the Cards do. Please stop looking at the Jets game, which was an aberration, for validation of anything.

 

So if Trent could only lead the Bills to 24 points against the Rams' lousy defense, what makes ANYONE think he would have scored more against the Cards' defense? There is simply NO support for this.

 

And the Cardinals didn't score on every drive. So even if the Bills had scored more than 17 and kept them off the field more, it's no guarantee they would have scored less than they did.

[keepthefaith]

I know you were making a joke, but I have to disagree. I think our defense made Warner look much better than he really is.

 

Warner's a very good QB.

 

What's very clear to me is that the Bills defense plays poorly when JP is in the game. Both last year and again last Sunday. The conspiracy should be investigated. It's uncanny.

[LABills08]

Its pointless to argue that JP sucks to people who disagree. They will never be convinced. I give up.

[YOOOOOO]

I said i was done with this thread...but i had to return to reply to JimmyPage....

 

 

 

This is a classic case of someone not understanding football enough here...He claims the Jets torched the Cards defense...they scored 56 points and we couldnt even score 20....

 

What he doesnt realize is that,....

 

The cards turned over the ball 7 times

 

 

 

7 TIMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

If our defense could have stopped them a couple times in the first half...the 4th quarter, were JP and the offense imploded, would have been completely different...

[billfan63]

Its pointless to argue that JP sucks to people who disagree. They will never be convinced. I give up.

Their about as hardheaded as the people who think he sucks and blame him for anything and everything