Bleed Bills Blue Posted October 6, 2008 Posted October 6, 2008 At the very least, it might have been worth the challenge to let the defense have a few more minutes to catch their breath.
ans4e64 Posted October 6, 2008 Posted October 6, 2008 OK, upon review: His knee was NOT down. However, his shin almost certainly was. As I recall from earlier today 1 shin = 1 knee. So he should have been down. Initially, I thought the ball came out when he hit it on the ground. It actually came out of his hand just inches above the ground. So, the ground did not cause the fumble. It would have been a close review and I would never expect the Refs to give the Bills a call. But, IMO, his shin was down when the defender was pulling him back. Regardless of the outcome, Jauron still should have challenged it. Is that really the rule? I thought it either had to be a knee or elbow, nothing else.
Dan Posted October 6, 2008 Posted October 6, 2008 Is that really the rule? I thought it either had to be a knee or elbow, nothing else. I forget which game it was (because I was flipping throughout all the early games), but someone caught a pass on the sideline and they called him in because his shin was down. First I had heard of it, but that's what they said.
Bleed Bills Blue Posted October 6, 2008 Posted October 6, 2008 Is that really the rule? I thought it either had to be a knee or elbow, nothing else. No, because the shin bone's connected to the knee bone.
keepthefaith Posted October 6, 2008 Posted October 6, 2008 At the very least, it might have been worth the challenge to let the defense have a few more minutes to catch their breath. By now Jauron realizes he should have challenged the call.
2020 Our Year For Sure Posted October 6, 2008 Author Posted October 6, 2008 I forget which game it was (because I was flipping throughout all the early games), but someone caught a pass on the sideline and they called him in because his shin was down. First I had heard of it, but that's what they said. I think I saw that too. It was a touchdown, right? I want to say it was Reggie Wayne, but I can't be sure.
Dan Posted October 6, 2008 Posted October 6, 2008 I think I saw that too. It was a touchdown, right? I want to say it was Reggie Wayne, but I can't be sure. Yep. I'm fairly certain it was during the Colts game.
The Dean Posted October 6, 2008 Posted October 6, 2008 Yep. I'm fairly certain it was during the Colts game. It can be any part of your body: ass, chest, head, shoulder, upper arm, back, etc. The only parts of your body that, when you are being tackled, can hit the ground and you will not be considered down, are your feet and your hand (without the ball). I am fairly certain that is the extent of it.
Rock'em Sock'em Posted October 6, 2008 Posted October 6, 2008 Is that really the rule? I thought it either had to be a knee or elbow, nothing else. Basically if anything except feet or hands touch the ground due to contact with a defender, you're down. Shin, elbow, head, knee (of course). Pretty sure ankle, forearm, and wrist count too. When I saw the Royal play, the first thing I thought was forward progress. I thought it was a mistake not to challenge, even though it might have ended up costing us a timeout. One of many mistakes by the team today. Hope Edwards is alright. Go Bills!
The Dean Posted October 6, 2008 Posted October 6, 2008 Basically if anything except feet or hands touch the ground due to contact with a defender, you're down. Shin, elbow, head, knee (of course). Pretty sure ankle, forearm, and wrist count too. When I saw the Royal play, the first thing I thought was forward progress. I thought it was a mistake not to challenge, even though it might have ended up costing us a timeout. One of many mistakes by the team today. Hope Edwards is alright. Go Bills! Forward progress is a judgment call on the field, and I don't think it can be challenged. Forward progress is rarely called when the offensive player is still attempting to gain yardage. And, with the new trend to let the play continue before blowing a whistle (due to replay), the refs are a little slower to stop play, in situations like that. Just IMO, of course.
Stenbar Posted October 6, 2008 Posted October 6, 2008 Honestly, I'm guessing the Bills never got a good look at a definitive replay, before the next snap. Looks like Dick was waiting for the go ahead, from upstairs. It looked, to me, like the ball came out of Royals hand as a result of hitting the ground...the ground knocked it out of his hand. If that's the case, it is not a fumble. Thats exactly what happened..No player knocked the ball out..The ground did..Play shoulda been dead there..
Fan in San Diego Posted October 6, 2008 Posted October 6, 2008 Thats exactly what happened..No player knocked the ball out..The ground did..Play shoulda been dead there.. I could replay the play myself, the ball came out because his legs and ankles were getting bent around painfully and his knees didn't touch the ground. Sorry
The Senator Posted October 6, 2008 Posted October 6, 2008 Like I said, you can always tell a Yale man, but you can't tell him much... Mortimer's an idiot for not throwing the red flag - little-ref-guy would have loved a few more moments in front of the camera to overturn the call. Royal never fumbled. Ball came out when R2 was already down and slammed it into the carpet. Incontrovertible statement of fact.
Billsjunkie Posted October 6, 2008 Posted October 6, 2008 Like I said, you can always tell a Yale man, but you can't tell him much... Mortimer's an idiot for not throwing the red flag - little-ref-guy would have loved a few more moments in front of the camera to overturn the call. Royal never fumbled. Ball came out when R2 was already down and slammed it into the carpet. Incontrovertible statement of fact. I want to know what you guys are seeing because the ball came out before Royals hand or whatever ever hit the ground. It came out of his hand before he ever touched the ground.
John in VA Beach Posted October 6, 2008 Posted October 6, 2008 I agree with Big Bad Boone, Royal kinda threw the ball down when he was getting twisted back. The ground didnt cause the ball to come out. He just slamed it down like a dumb A$$. You are correct. It looked like the ball caused the fumble from the wide camera shot because Royal let go of the ball so abruptly. Seemed to me he got scared because he was bending in an awkward fashion. The closeup shot shows him tossing the ball prior to him touching the ground with the ball. Just a weak play by Royal.
apuszczalowski Posted October 6, 2008 Posted October 6, 2008 Jauron should have challenged that play. If for no other reason than to slow the game down and slow down the momentum. Exactly. Even if it isn't reversed, he atleast buys the defence some more time to rest before going back on the field
Alphadawg7 Posted October 6, 2008 Posted October 6, 2008 This is about a dumb of topic as you can have here today. This play was without a shadow of a doubt the right call by the refs. One, his knee never came closer than an inch from the ground, and if you watch the replays they have perfect camera shots of it leaving nothing to dispute. Two, the ball was not even knocked out of Royals hand by a defender or the ground. He flat out DROPS the ball when his arm is still a good 2 FEET above the ground... So, if DJ throws the red flag and we 100% guarantee lose a time out that we were going to be needing playing from behind. I was even sitting there saying I will be pissed if he throws a flag out of desperation on a call that had ZERO chance of being reversed as they had many great shots of the play undeniably showing the refs had the right call. So let this issue go, I mean I swear, there were plenty of other issues in the game, and the no red flag by DJ was NOT one of them and about the only thing the coaching staff did do right by trusting the booth on not challenging. In a game where we are playing from behind, do you wanna risk a precious timeout on a call that has at best a 1% chance of being overturned? I only say 1% for all of you "anything is possible" people...
Alphadawg7 Posted October 6, 2008 Posted October 6, 2008 This is about a dumb of topic as you can have here today. This play was without a shadow of a doubt the right call by the refs. One, his knee never came closer than an inch from the ground, and if you watch the replays they have perfect camera shots of it leaving nothing to dispute. Two, the ball was not even knocked out of Royals hand by a defender or the ground. He flat out DROPS the ball when his arm is still a good 2 FEET above the ground... So, if DJ throws the red flag and we 100% guarantee lose a time out that we were going to be needing playing from behind. I was even sitting there saying I will be pissed if he throws a flag out of desperation on a call that had ZERO chance of being reversed as they had many great shots of the play undeniably showing the refs had the right call. So let this issue go, I mean I swear, there were plenty of other issues in the game, and the no red flag by DJ was NOT one of them and about the only thing the coaching staff did do right by trusting the booth on not challenging. In a game where we are playing from behind, do you wanna risk a precious timeout on a call that has at best a 1% chance of being overturned? I only say 1% for all of you "anything is possible" people... And just in case it wasnt clear in my last post, the ball was NOT knocked out by the ground, he literally DROPPED the ball on HIS OWN a good foot or two ABOVE the ground, NOT EVEN CLOSE...so with NO KNEE OR SHIN touching the ground, and the ball NOT being knocked out by the ground, just where exactly do we get this call over turned? For those of you in dispute, you clearly need to upgrade to HDTV or get a bigger TV... What an annoying topic today after such a dismal game...I mean, its the only thing the coaching staff did right yesterday not calling for an instant replay and losing us a vital timeout and challenge.
The Dean Posted October 6, 2008 Posted October 6, 2008 Like I said, you can always tell a Yale man, but you can't tell him much... Mortimer's an idiot for not throwing the red flag - little-ref-guy would have loved a few more moments in front of the camera to overturn the call. Royal never fumbled. Ball came out when R2 was already down and slammed it into the carpet. Incontrovertible statement of fact. Whatever happened is YOUR FAULT. When are you going to step up and accept the responsibility?
apuszczalowski Posted October 6, 2008 Posted October 6, 2008 This is about a dumb of topic as you can have here today. This play was without a shadow of a doubt the right call by the refs. One, his knee never came closer than an inch from the ground, and if you watch the replays they have perfect camera shots of it leaving nothing to dispute. Two, the ball was not even knocked out of Royals hand by a defender or the ground. He flat out DROPS the ball when his arm is still a good 2 FEET above the ground... So, if DJ throws the red flag and we 100% guarantee lose a time out that we were going to be needing playing from behind. I was even sitting there saying I will be pissed if he throws a flag out of desperation on a call that had ZERO chance of being reversed as they had many great shots of the play undeniably showing the refs had the right call. So let this issue go, I mean I swear, there were plenty of other issues in the game, and the no red flag by DJ was NOT one of them and about the only thing the coaching staff did do right by trusting the booth on not challenging. In a game where we are playing from behind, do you wanna risk a precious timeout on a call that has at best a 1% chance of being overturned? I only say 1% for all of you "anything is possible" people... So what were they going to save that time out for? the first time that the defence can force the Cards to turn the ball over without scoring to give the offence some extra time? That was a critical time and one that they should have asked for a replay for, even if they didn't think it would have been overturned. It wouldn't be a wasted Time Out. If the refs saw something and overturned it, the offence is back on the field and you just may have saved the game. If it is ruled the call stands, then they let the defence rest for a little bit longer and bought some time after the turnover to prepare for trying to stop the Cards and getting the ball back
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