The USS Forrestal Fire Revisted

[RkFast]

Back to the thread.

 

Linking erratic behavior to safety... People who have erratic behavior tend to have a horrid safety track record. These people also very often find themselves embroiled in other messes, maybe not such much of their own doing.

 

And I don't mean getting a tractor stuck in a ditch... I am not a maverick... I immediately knew not to keep spinning the wheels only to get stuck deeper...

 

On one end you have a maverick... Which scares me, they usually get people killed or hurt. On the other hand you have to the quote I think Tom posted here years ago: "A perfect safety record is one's who don't have the balls to live in the real world."

 

I just think McCain is one of those characters that always has to have his ass covered because of over the top stupid mistakes he makes.

 

Maybe is not totally to blame... He does have the bad credibility of being in the wrong place at the wrong time... It is amazing he lived?

 

"I know, Mav.....you had a hard time in flight school, bein' Pete Mitchell's kid and all. But evry' time were up there, its like yer flyin' against ghosts."

 

Methinks Goose is looking into this too much.

[In-A-Gadda-Levitre]

Combat flying favors aggressiveness, and involves pushing high-performance planes to the edge of the envelope...which is why McCain's record w/r/t aircraft losses isn't all that surprising or worrisome to me. The number of aircrew that die from accidents or even simply doing stupid sh-- in high-performance planes is truly amazing. The military does not, however, put a person in control of a plane without teaching them a certain measure of responsibility, as they know it's too easy to get in trouble in an airplane.

 

I think, what gets lost in this "debate" about McCain's flying record, is the distinction between being a "risk taker" and a "risk seeker". The military wants risk takers as combat pilots - people who can size up a situation and make a calculated decision as to the risk/reward balance thereof. They need them, in fact...if Chuck Yeager wasn't a risk taker, he'd have never become an ace (in a day - five kills on one mission, in Europe no less) and never would have climbed into the X-1 (which had an alarming tendency to explode). They do not want risk seekers - guys who suspend judgement for the sake of an adreneline rush. And that's especially true for carrier aviation, which is, was, and will always include some of the most stupidly dangerous things you can do with an aircraft.

 

The idea that McCain's flight record demonstrates bad judgement is a fallacy. If it demonstrates anything, it demonstrates largely just the kind of judgement he needed as a combat pilot, balancing safety with the fact that he was doing one of the most unsafe activities on the planet.

 

Now, whether you want THAT kind of risk-taking judgement in the White House or not...that's another argument.

a few quotes from Make-Believe Maverick:

 

In the cockpit, McCain was not a top gun, or even a middling gun. He took little interest in his flight manuals; he had other priorities.

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In the air, the hard-partying McCain had a knack for stalling out his planes in midflight. He was still in training, in Texas, when he crashed his first plane into Corpus Christi Bay during a routine practice landing. The plane stalled, and McCain was knocked cold on impact. When he came to, the plane was underwater, and he had to swim to the surface to be rescued. Some might take such a near-death experience as a wake-up call: McCain took some painkillers and a nap, and then went out carousing that night.

 

McCain's thrill-seeking carried over into his day job. Flying over the south of Spain one day, he decided to deviate from his flight plan. Rocketing along mere feet above the ground, his plane sliced through a power line. His self-described "daredevil clowning" plunged much of the area into a blackout.

 

That should have been the end of McCain's flying career. "In the Navy, if you crashed one airplane, nine times out of 10 you would lose your wings," says Butler, who, like his former classmate, was shot down and taken prisoner in North Vietnam. Spark "a small international incident" like McCain had? Any other pilot would have "found themselves as the deck officer on a destroyer someplace in a hurry," says Butler.

 

"But, God, he had family pull. He was directly related to the CEO — you know?"

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That December, McCain crashed again. Flying back from Philadelphia, where he had joined in the reverie of the Army-Navy football game, McCain stalled while coming in for a refueling stop in Norfolk, Virginia. This time he managed to bail out at 1,000 feet. As his parachute deployed, his plane thundered into the trees below.

 

By now, however, McCain's flying privileges were virtually irrevocable — and he knew it.

 

risk taker or risk seeker?

[ExiledInIllinois]

Exactly.

 

Who's more dangerous and erratic? The funny thing is, they can talk all the trash they want about Obama. Obama, IMO seems a hell of a lot more even keel than McCain. McCain gets a pass merely because he served. That is flat out wrong.

 

Where is my plimsoll line avatar when you need it! I don't think you want that kind of risk taking in the WH.

 

[Chilly]

Exactly.

 

Who's more dangerous and erratic? The funny thing is, they can talk all the trash they want about Obama. Obama, IMO seems a hell of a lot more even keel than McCain. McCain gets a pass merely because he served. That is flat out wrong.

 

Where is my plimsoll line avatar when you need it! I don't think you want that kind of risk taking in the WH.

 

 

Is it possible to know the true personality of a presidential candidate?

[DC Tom]

Exactly.

 

Who's more dangerous and erratic? The funny thing is, they can talk all the trash they want about Obama. Obama, IMO seems a hell of a lot more even keel than McCain. McCain gets a pass merely because he served. That is flat out wrong.

 

Where is my plimsoll line avatar when you need it! I don't think you want that kind of risk taking in the WH.

 

 

I don't doubt Obama is more level-headed than McCain. I just dispute that McCain's flight record is evidence of recklessness. He's lost four planes, including the A-4 on the Forrestal, and only one (the first, low-speed stall on landing) might be considered a lapse in judgement.

[DC Tom]

Is it possible to know the true personality of a presidential candidate?

 

Presidential? No.

 

VP, on the other hand? You betcha!

[ExiledInIllinois]

Is it possible to know the true personality of a presidential candidate?

 

From what the McCain camp is telling the country... Yes. I am just playing along. They are saying one can pick up pretty good clues.

[DC Tom]

From what the McCain camp is telling the country... Yes. I am just playing along. They are saying one can pick up pretty good clues.

 

Doubt it. Particularly from 40 years ago. Don't believe Obama's association with Weather Underground decades ago is any more an insight into who he currently is than I believe McCain's flight record is an indication of who he is. People change in 40 years.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Doubt it. Particularly from 40 years ago. Don't believe Obama's association with Weather Underground decades ago is any more an insight into who he currently is than I believe McCain's flight record is an indication of who he is. People change in 40 years.

 

But, my whole point is McCain's erratic behavior now... Choices he has made recently sure points to the fact that maybe he hasn't change.

 

Case(s) in point:

 

His tapping of Palin (Okay that was a shameless joke.)

His utter cluelessness of where the economy is.

His choice to suspend his campaig.

Now is choice to enter into a scorch-earth campaign.

 

He is flat out erratic... Just as he was 40 years ago.

[erynthered]

Doubt it. Particularly from 40 years ago. Don't believe Obama's association with Weather Underground decades ago is any more an insight into who he currently is than I believe McCain's flight record is an indication of who he is. People change in 40 years.

 

 

40 years, yes. I hate the liberal whinney heart bleedin liberals even more. .

 

Check with MG or jk2000, elengence, pastajoe.............

 

How old is barry? BTW, is that the flavor they serve, berry? ACK.

[Nanker]

Interestingly enough, there is a dearth of footage showing the actual firing of the Zuni from across the deck.

I've seen it, but it's not generally available anymore. What's mostly out there is a five part American made reenactment that starts just after the initial explosion.

 

This is the closest to the original I've seen recently, but it also is a reenactment: The Krauts have the geometry correct. An A4 isn't a Harrier, so even if JM was at full throttle the wet start doesn't hold water. The Skyhawk was nearly at a right angle to McCain's plane and about 50 feet away.

[Chilly]

But, my whole point is McCain's erratic behavior now... Choices he has made recently sure points to the fact that maybe he hasn't change.

 

Case(s) in point:

 

His tapping of Palin (Okay that was a shameless joke.)

His utter cluelessness of where the economy is.

His choice to suspend his campaig.

Now is choice to enter into a scorch-earth campaign.

 

He is flat out erratic... Just as he was 40 years ago.

 

You're missing the overarching theme here: Those were all strategic political decisions, not erratic by any stretch.

[ExiledInIllinois]

You're missing the overarching theme here: Those were all strategic political decisions, not erratic by any stretch.

 

No. It is very erratic.

 

Say what you will 40 years ago... His erratic behavior now points to no credibility in the past.

 

The guy is all over the board... Worse than me!

 

Well... That is the way I see it.

[Chilly]

No. It is very erratic.

 

Oh yeah? Hows that?

[molson_golden2002]

a few quotes from Make-Believe Maverick:

 

 

 

risk taker or risk seeker?

Wow!

[ExiledInIllinois]

Oh yeah? Hows that?

 

You don't see him waffling from tactic to tactic?

 

Is that how he would govern? By the "seat of his pants"... Err... I mean Depends®...

 

Now couple that with mind numbing out of touchness like:

 

"The economy has a strong foundation."

 

And then basically says a week later

 

I am suspending my campaign to work on the economy's weak foundation.

 

WTF? He (McCain) is having Herbert Hoover wet dreams.

 

The Republican "well" is poisoned... Hey, if some want to drink... More power to them... I am following the branded burro to the safe water supply... Not the unbranded animal (maverick) to the well!

[RkFast]

Is that how he would govern? By the "seat of his pants"... Err... I mean Depends®...

 

I wonder how it would be treated if someone said Obama would govern by "how the watermelon seeds fell out of his mouth" or something similar.

 

Oh, I forgot...when a lib makes such a comment its "in jest" or "satire."

 

On topic....from all accounts, McCain was a stubborn and ham-handed pilot. So what? Judging how he would govern the Nation based on how he flew? Whats next, having a look at how he drives?

 

"Ya know.....that McCain.....he likes to speed in the right lane...how can such a man be President?!!??"

[ExiledInIllinois]

I wonder how it would be treated if someone said Obama would govern by "how the watermelon seeds fell out of his mouth" or something similar.

 

Oh, I forgot...when a lib makes such a comment its "in jest" or "satire."

 

On topic....from all accounts, McCain was a stubborn and ham-handed pilot. So what? Judging how he would govern the Nation based on how he flew? Whats next, having a look at how he drives?

 

"Ya know.....that McCain.....he likes to speed in the right lane...how can such a man be President?!!??"

 

I don't know... Maybe it is just me... IMO, you can learn a lot about somebody by the way they drive and interact with other drivers on the road.

 

No?

 

[RkFast]

I don't know... Maybe it is just me... IMO, you can learn a lot about somebody by the way they drive and interact with other drivers on the road.

 

No?

 

 

I just think there are better ways to judge a man's character than by how he operates machinery.

 

But if were going this route, I can argue that McCain's flying style shows he will be a good, strong President. For example, the bomb run he got shot down on, he should have bailed out of. But he kept flying into the AAA and SAMS, refusing to disengage until he dropped his bombs, which most Naval aviators would do.

 

Pretty brave, eh?

[Chilly]

You don't see him waffling from tactic to tactic?

 

That's not erratic behavior, that's called campaigning from behind in the midst of a crisis that's about to kill you.