Bill from NYC Posted October 3, 2008 Posted October 3, 2008 You may be too young to remember, but the same thing (and worse) was said about Terry Bradshaw. He turned out OK. I remember Bradshaw. I also remember Rob Johnson and Jeff George. JP is a seemingly nice kid who really did try to be a good quarterback, however the fanfare he continues to receive is startling. In another post, you state that we couldn't get a 3rd round pick for him; here you liken his potential to that of Bradshaw. If any GM in the league thought highly of Losman, they would offer us a 1st round pick, contingent on signing him to a long term deal. Obviously, this isn't the case, despite the fact that many teams lack a quality quarterback. QBs are just worth a ton. Think we could get a 1st round pick for Trent? I place blame on Fairchild as well, but I think the most plausible excuse (out of the truckload) for JP is that he was brought in a year too soon. He was not able to learn the game as quickly as Trent, but then again few can. Trent has been a huge improvement at the quarterback position for the Buffalo Bills. The players and the coaches know this, as do all but a few fans (not necessarily including you as one of the few).
Gordio Posted October 3, 2008 Posted October 3, 2008 You may be too young to remember, but the same thing (and worse) was said about Terry Bradshaw. He turned out OK. Different time, different place deano. Back then a qb did not have to contend with all the complicated blitz schemes & such. I think back when Bradshaw played 70% of being a good QB was physical & 30% was mental. In today's league, it is more 70/30 mental to physical imo.
John from Riverside Posted October 3, 2008 Posted October 3, 2008 My beef with JPL (and I have been a supporter in the past as well) is his terrible accuracy....he can throw the ball a mile but puts it in the dirt in front of his receivers at the most inopportune times... Thank god for Trent Edwards
YOOOOOO Posted October 3, 2008 Posted October 3, 2008 Think we could get a 1st round pick for Trent? This is not a knock on Trent..... REPEAT NOT A KNOCK ON TRENT.... but he wouldnt get us a 1st round pick right now either
DC Tom Posted October 3, 2008 Posted October 3, 2008 I am a JP supporter. I'm a Buffalo Bills supporter.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted October 3, 2008 Posted October 3, 2008 Fairchild That's half of the problem. Unfortunately the guy I liked until proven unworthy (JP) was the other half.
thebug Posted October 3, 2008 Posted October 3, 2008 Fairchild Oh Fairchild was the guy on the field wearing the number 7 jersey, I get it now GO BILLS!
bizell Posted October 3, 2008 Posted October 3, 2008 Oh Fairchild was the guy on the field wearing the number 7 jersey, I get it now GO BILLS! Whether you want to admit it or not, the OC does have an influence on the QB. But anyways,since you're like THAT, you're not allowed to complain about schonert's playcalling. what about all you trentites making excuses for that interception in the dallas game last year? "It's Fairchild's fault for calling that play.."
Bill from NYC Posted October 3, 2008 Posted October 3, 2008 This is not a knock on Trent..... REPEAT NOT A KNOCK ON TRENT.... but he wouldnt get us a 1st round pick right now either I respectfully disagree, and think that he would fetch us an easy 1st, perhaps much more. Jmo.
The Dean Posted October 3, 2008 Posted October 3, 2008 Different time, different place deano. Back then a qb did not have to contend with all the complicated blitz schemes & such. I think back when Bradshaw played 70% of being a good QB was physical & 30% was mental. In today's league, it is more 70/30 mental to physical imo. Poppycock. QB has always been a position that favored brains over brawn. In fact, it is only recently that athleticism has played a major part of QB evaluation. Was Bart Star more athletic or smart? What about Bob Griese? I could go on. In those days a Mike Vick wouldn't sniff a QB roster spot, parly because of race, of course, and partly because he isn't good enough at reading defenses. Back then did QBs need to be 6'2" + to be considered an NFL starting QB? Did they need to be able to run? If anything, the position is FAR more physical now, than it was then.
The Dean Posted October 3, 2008 Posted October 3, 2008 I remember Bradshaw. I also remember Rob Johnson and Jeff George. JP is a seemingly nice kid who really did try to be a good quarterback, however the fanfare he continues to receive is startling. In another post, you state that we couldn't get a 3rd round pick for him; here you liken his potential to that of Bradshaw. If any GM in the league thought highly of Losman, they would offer us a 1st round pick, contingent on signing him to a long term deal. Obviously, this isn't the case, despite the fact that many teams lack a quality quarterback. QBs are just worth a ton. Think we could get a 1st round pick for Trent? I place blame on Fairchild as well, but I think the most plausible excuse (out of the truckload) for JP is that he was brought in a year too soon. He was not able to learn the game as quickly as Trent, but then again few can. Trent has been a huge improvement at the quarterback position for the Buffalo Bills. The players and the coaches know this, as do all but a few fans (not necessarily including you as one of the few). Do you also remember Jim Plunkett? Doug Williams? Mark Rypien? Joe Kapp? Bill Kilmer? Tony Eason (for Christ's sake)? Stan Humphries? Neil O'Donnell (nobody smarter than Neil)? Chris Chandler? Rex Grossman? All started a Super Bowl game. I guess that is just a bunch of brainiacs there. I'm not just saying JP is likely good enough to be a starting QB in the NFL. I'm saying he is likely good enough, and more than smart enough, to be a SUPER BOWL QB, for the right team. Your absurd hatred of JP clouds your judgment so much, you haven't been able to form a coherent thought about him in over a year. Your man-crush on Trent amplifies that inability to objectively look at the situation, apparently. Not only do you turn every thread about Trent into a JP-bashing opportunity, you have somehow managed to bring up Trent in a thread that has nothing to do with him. Trent's great...her's the QB of the Bills. That has nothing to do with the future of JP on another team, should he get that opportunity. Would you have believed 10 years ago, that Kerry Collins would be leading an undefeated Titans team, this year? That, by itself, should stop all this nonsense from the JP bashers about how he could NEVER be successful in the NFL. Nobody knows what will happen in a player's future, and you all sound like idiots when you declare to know the absolute truth about what "might be". (I'm not including you in that rant, Bill, as I don't remember you ever making that blanket claim.) While I never likened JP's potential to Bradshaw (read my post again), "Yes" I think that he may become a very good starting QB in this league, even though I'm not sure that, today, the Bills could get a 3rd round pick for him. I'm not sure how many 2nd string QBs in the last year of their contracts could command a 3rd round pick, in a trade, but I don't think there are too many. EDIT: After further review (rereading the initial post) I guess some discussion of JP vs Trent was warranted. So, I take back my shot at Bill for bringing TE into this discussion. My bad! I never for a minute thought anyone still thought JP should be starting for the Bills, right now.
Whites Bay Posted October 3, 2008 Posted October 3, 2008 You & I have similar opinions of JP, how the Bills mishandled his development, and his potential to still become a decent NFL QB with the right team - question is, with the trading deadline about 2 weeks away, do you try to get something for the guy? If someone's QB goes down in the next 2 weeks, can we get a 3rd round pick for Losman? I'm thinking Hamdan can step in as #2 right now. (I believe Jared Lorenzen is still available, if we need a #3. ) Gosh, Senator, no. The Bills are rolling along at 4-0 as a team. Let me repeat that. As a team. Including the back up QB. Fortunately, this is an internet forum populated by impatient, usually-alcohol-soaked fans, and not General Managers. This would NOT be the time to pull the trigger on a tectonic event like trading a VERY EXPERIENCED backup QB on a team that HASN'T MADE THE PLAYOFFS in this century. I really wanted JP to succeed, and you can all search my posts that relate him to being the next Stabler. It didn't happen. But, boy oh boy, am I glad that he's on the bench, one hit away from not only coming INTO a game, but from WINNING a game. That's what this year is about, boys and girls. That's what this year is about.
Buftex Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 I think it is safe to say that pretty much everyone likes/liked JP Losman as a guy on our team. He said all the right things, flashed just enough talent to make us think he had superstar potential, and, above all, really embraced the Buffalo Bills, and the city of Buffalo. How can you not like him? But, you gotta win games, or none of that stuff makes JP any more valuable to the Bills than my aunt Val. That being said, I knew Trent Edwards was a better QB than JP after about his third start. IMO, he was already at laest as good as JP, if you could measure those things. Sure, they have different strenghts, both of which are valuable in a QB, but Edwards just showed, right off, that he has the intangiables to very successful. The game just seems to come to Edwards much easier than it does JP. People who rag on and on about Edwards weak arm, particularly in comparison to JP, seem to forget that there is much more to being an NFL QB than simply being able to zing a ball down field. There are dozens of QB's drafted out of college in the last decade or so who had killer arms...what happened to them all? Having a mental edge to your game can compensate quite nicely for what physical limitations you may have. BTW- I think rumours of TE's weak arm have been greatly exaggerated since day one... I am not knocking JP, but he isn't remarkable, or above average, in the mental aspects of the game. He can get better, I think, but TE is far beyond him already. Instead of re-hashing this whole thing, over and over, I think we should just sit back and realize that we have the best QB to wear a Bills uniform, since 1996. Marv Levy finally found a replacement for Jim Kelly. It is the little things Edwards has mastered so well, that we don't even think about them. Trent isn't perfect, but he just seems to have that mental edge to his game that makes me feel very comfortable with him as a QB for my favorite team. I don't get nervous when he behind center. Sure, he had some tough times in cold weather, and rain. But, he doesn't drop his game. That is a remarkable trait for a QB to have, particularly at such a young age. Sit back and enjoy...
Albany,n.y. Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 This is not a knock on Trent..... REPEAT NOT A KNOCK ON TRENT.... but he wouldnt get us a 1st round pick right now either I agree, he would get us AT LEAST two 1st round picks.
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Strange, then, how he processed info fast enough in this preseason under a competent OC well enough to be better than Trent. Look up the stats. I wouldn't put JP in now if I was the coach. But I do believe that if Trent goes down that there will not be a significant dropoff. And that if he finds the right situation - and there are a lot more wrong situations than right ones out there - he will be top-level QB. And I agree that I don't want to see him in the AFC East. I checked the stats and you're a liar. 2008: http://www.nfl.com/teams/buffalobills/stat...;seasonType=PRE 2007: http://www.nfl.com/teams/buffalobills/stat...;seasonType=PRE Please don't just make up stuff to prove a point. It just makes you look silly in the end. As for JP, I always liked him and wanted him to succeed. But I'm so sick of the excuses everyone has for him. Fairchild, who is the worst coordinator, yet was also the coordinator that helped him be the 11th ranked pass in 2006. Mularkey, a terrible head coach, is doing a great job with Matt Ryan and made a washed up Kordell Stewart a MVP candidate and helped Tommy Maddox come from selling insurance to Comeback Player of the Year. Not 1 coaching staff, but 2 coaching staffs, have benched Losman. He has all the tools but he just is consistent enough to be counted on every game. I would fully trust him for a game (especially if he enters in the middle of the game), but I'd very nervous if he had to play longer than that. Good Qbs don't depend on one receiver. Again, I like Losman and will always support him as a Bill. But it blows my mind how many people still really think he will be a good NFL QB. I hope that he makes my words. But if he wasn't a Bill, everyone would think of him as Grossman, Boller, or Harrington. Go Bills!
Albany,n.y. Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Would you have believed 10 years ago, that Kerry Collins would be leading an undefeated Titans team, this year? That, by itself, should stop all this nonsense from the JP bashers about how he could NEVER be successful in the NFL. Nobody knows what will happen in a player's future, and you all sound like idiots when you declare to know the absolute truth about what "might be". (I'm not including you in that rant, Bill, as I don't remember you ever making that blanket claim.) Well based on the fact that Kerry Collins had already taken Carolina to the NFC Championship game in his 2nd season in the league and just needed to stop drinking so much, plus the fact that 8 years ago Collins led the Giants to the NFC Championship, it's not so outrageous that Collins could lead a team to a 4-0 start. It's not like Tennessee is 16-0. Since the salary cap era, name me another 1st round QB, who lost his starter's job with the team that drafted him and ever amounted to anything with another team. The best ones after Collins, the exception to the rule are Tommy Maddox and Trent Dilfer-2 QBs who didn't exactly go on to greatness. Heck, Dilfer wasn't even re-signed after his team won the Super Bowl because it was the defense, not Dilfer who got them there. There is a ton of data that says it is highly unlikely that JP will ever be a successful starter in the NFL. These are all the 1st round QBs who lost their starter's job and never succeeded in the NFL since the salary cap & free agency came into effect in 1992. Only Collins, Dilfer and Maddox ever had even a modicum of success after losing their jobs and getting let go by their draft team. Here's the guys drafted from 1992 on who didn't: David Klingler, Rick Mirer, Heath Schuler, Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Cade McNown, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Patrick Ramsey, and Byron Leftwich. Statistically, if you only include Collins, thats 1 in 14. or 7.14%, or a 92.86% failure rate-and the 1 had a drinking problem-JP has no known off field problem that he can fix. If you consider Dilfer & Maddox successful, then it's 3/14 or 21.43% or a 78.57 failure rate. Could JP be the exception-I wouldn't bet on it. Since the salary cap era, 16 years and counting, when a team jettisons a former 1st round QB pick, getting little or nothing back in return, they are almost always right. Dumping a 1st round QB pick is done only after the team has determined that the guy is a bust-you just don't invest that much time & money for another team to profit from your former 1st rounder. To call 16 years of data that indicates JP won't ever be successful nonsense is ignoring reality. People can like JP & hope he's the exception, but the odds are really stacked against him.
Kelso_Helmet Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Do you also remember Jim Plunkett? Doug Williams? Mark Rypien? Joe Kapp? Bill Kilmer? Tony Eason (for Christ's sake)? Stan Humphries? Neil O'Donnell (nobody smarter than Neil)? Chris Chandler? Rex Grossman? All started a Super Bowl game. I guess that is just a bunch of brainiacs there. I'm not just saying JP is likely good enough to be a starting QB in the NFL. I'm saying he is likely good enough, and more than smart enough, to be a SUPER BOWL QB, for the right team. Your absurd hatred of JP clouds your judgment so much, you haven't been able to form a coherent thought about him in over a year. Your man-crush on Trent amplifies that inability to objectively look at the situation, apparently. Not only do you turn every thread about Trent into a JP-bashing opportunity, you have somehow managed to bring up Trent in a thread that has nothing to do with him. Trent's great...her's the QB of the Bills. That has nothing to do with the future of JP on another team, should he get that opportunity. Would you have believed 10 years ago, that Kerry Collins would be leading an undefeated Titans team, this year? That, by itself, should stop all this nonsense from the JP bashers about how he could NEVER be successful in the NFL. Nobody knows what will happen in a player's future, and you all sound like idiots when you declare to know the absolute truth about what "might be". (I'm not including you in that rant, Bill, as I don't remember you ever making that blanket claim.) While I never likened JP's potential to Bradshaw (read my post again), "Yes" I think that he may become a very good starting QB in this league, even though I'm not sure that, today, the Bills could get a 3rd round pick for him. I'm not sure how many 2nd string QBs in the last year of their contracts could command a 3rd round pick, in a trade, but I don't think there are too many. EDIT: After further review (rereading the initial post) I guess some discussion of JP vs Trent was warranted. So, I take back my shot at Bill for bringing TE into this discussion. My bad! I never for a minute thought anyone still thought JP should be starting for the Bills, right now. The more we engage in the Trent/JP discussion, the more and more we start to wade into the hypothetical...which, granted, much of sports discussion is based on hypotheticals and comparison. But the brass tacks I think most people might agree with are: * Bills are looking great with Trent under center * Fairchild was nothing short of inept as an OC...likely the worst to ever strap on a headset for this franchise. So it's really hard to estimate the full extent of what JPs abilities might be - it seems as if he has all the tools, so, maybe, in the right system he could be a legitimate NFL QB. * JP made it a point to embrace the city of Buffalo upon his becoming the starting QB, and he should get credit for that. * Despite the debate over JPs upside, I think most people would concur that he is a good option as a #2 QB. We see the impact of losing Brady...does anyone think that Bellicheat wouldn't rather have JP than Matt Cassel? If Trent were to become injured, all of a sudden JP would be worth a lot more than a 3rd round pick.
The Dean Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Well based on the fact that Kerry Collins had already taken Carolina to the NFC Championship game in his 2nd season in the league and just needed to stop drinking so much, plus the fact that 8 years ago Collins led the Giants to the NFC Championship, it's not so outrageous that Collins could lead a team to a 4-0 start. It's not like Tennessee is 16-0. Since the salary cap era, name me another 1st round QB, who lost his starter's job with the team that drafted him and ever amounted to anything with another team. The best ones after Collins, the exception to the rule are Tommy Maddox and Trent Dilfer-2 QBs who didn't exactly go on to greatness. Heck, Dilfer wasn't even re-signed after his team won the Super Bowl because it was the defense, not Dilfer who got them there. There is a ton of data that says it is highly unlikely that JP will ever be a successful starter in the NFL. These are all the 1st round QBs who lost their starter's job and never succeeded in the NFL since the salary cap & free agency came into effect in 1992. Only Collins, Dilfer and Maddox ever had even a modicum of success after losing their jobs and getting let go by their draft team. Here's the guys drafted from 1992 on who didn't: David Klingler, Rick Mirer, Heath Schuler, Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Cade McNown, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Patrick Ramsey, and Byron Leftwich. Statistically, if you only include Collins, thats 1 in 14. or 7.14%, or a 92.86% failure rate-and the 1 had a drinking problem-JP has no known off field problem that he can fix. If you consider Dilfer & Maddox successful, then it's 3/14 or 21.43% or a 78.57 failure rate. Could JP be the exception-I wouldn't bet on it. Since the salary cap era, 16 years and counting, when a team jettisons a former 1st round QB pick, getting little or nothing back in return, they are almost always right. Dumping a 1st round QB pick is done only after the team has determined that the guy is a bust-you just don't invest that much time & money for another team to profit from your former 1st rounder. To call 16 years of data that indicates JP won't ever be successful nonsense is ignoring reality. People can like JP & hope he's the exception, but the odds are really stacked against him. That's a well stated, and well constructed argument. But, if it is directed at me or my post, I don't understand why. I don't see where I guaranteed that JP would be a great NFL starting. I don't remember suggesting that it was highly likely, based on any stats, comparisons to other QBs top become a star in the NFL. I pointed out that nobody KNOWS, nor should claim, without reservation, that he can't be a starting (or for some, even functional) QB in the NFL. The odds are likely against it, but applying odds to any particular individual for isn't that useful, as they are rarely "average" and all things are never equal. So, you look at the past, and see what you can see, look at stats, look at athletic comparisons, etc. In the end, you decide if you think a guy is going to something more than the average, something less...whatever. So, in this case, seeing what I see in this little analysis, I think JP has a shot at being a starting QB in this league, again. I think that, in the right circumstances, he might become pretty decent QB in this league. Furthermore (as I think I showed earlier) with the perfect storm of favorable circumstances, it is entirely possible that he might, someday, end up a QB in the Super Bowl. Surely QB's with less talent have been there. Would I bet on any of those? Probably not. But I might bet that he will /become do at least one of those things as opposed to not playing in the NFL 3 years from now. Now, I understand you think less highly of JPs skills, and more negatively on some of his weaknesses, than I and, as you note, "wouldn't bet" on JP being the exception to your take on history. Fair enough. I buy that. But, you have done nothing to support the case that he CAN'T or definitely won't make it. In fact, I think you made my case, nicely. Thanks.
Flbillsfan#1 Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Different time, different place deano. Back then a qb did not have to contend with all the complicated blitz schemes & such. I think back when Bradshaw played 70% of being a good QB was physical & 30% was mental. In today's league, it is more 70/30 mental to physical imo. I also disagree with you. You either have forgotten or maybe never knew, but QB's back in the day called their own plays, & they didn't have a plastic cheat sheet on their arm. Even though the defenses weren't as complicated as they are today, that took inteligence. By the way Jim Kelly was about the only QB to call his own plays when he played.
thebug Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Whether you want to admit it or not, the OC does have an influence on the QB. But anyways,since you're like THAT, you're not allowed to complain about schonert's playcalling. what about all you trentites making excuses for that interception in the dallas game last year? "It's Fairchild's fault for calling that play.." First of all nice edit: The OC has an influence on the play that is called, not the execution of the play. Sometimes it is the play call and sometimes it is the execution. If for one minute you think that a rookie QB should be throwing that pass in that situation, you should not be involved in this discussion. On way too many good play call situations JP made poor execution, end of story, that is the reason he is the backup. Just by using the word "trentites" shows your bag lickin love for JP (of course he should still be the starter). The best QB for the job is starting get over it.
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