Flbillsfan#1 Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 The more we engage in the Trent/JP discussion, the more and more we start to wade into the hypothetical...which, granted, much of sports discussion is based on hypotheticals and comparison. But the brass tacks I think most people might agree with are: * Bills are looking great with Trent under center * Fairchild was nothing short of inept as an OC...likely the worst to ever strap on a headset for this franchise. So it's really hard to estimate the full extent of what JPs abilities might be - it seems as if he has all the tools, so, maybe, in the right system he could be a legitimate NFL QB. * JP made it a point to embrace the city of Buffalo upon his becoming the starting QB, and he should get credit for that. * Despite the debate over JPs upside, I think most people would concur that he is a good option as a #2 QB. We see the impact of losing Brady...does anyone think that Bellicheat wouldn't rather have JP than Matt Cassel? If Trent were to become injured, all of a sudden JP would be worth a lot more than a 3rd round pick. Good post. The only thing I would add is that while Trent has shown he can play well under ideal conditions, he hasn't shown that ability in poor weather YET. He also has yet to play an entire season without being injured.
Saint Doug Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 This thread sounds like an AA meeting. "My name is _______ and I too, am an alcoholic..."
YOOOOOO Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 I respectfully disagree, and think that he would fetch us an easy 1st, perhaps much more. Jmo. Right now at this very moment.... no... At seasons end, that may all change.... Trent has done a very good job so far this season....his potential to be great is there.....but no team RIGHT NOW would give up a first for him.... I'm probably going to be labeled a Trent hater for saying this....and I'm not....buttttttt Were 4 games in.....He has yet to have a complete game from start to finish ... and were going to get a 1st for him....cmon now....isnt that alil premature..... His ability to put it together in the 2nd half has been amazing....but Let him put together a complete game...and make it thru one NFL season as a starter... I really think when the season is finally over and were rolling into the playoffs at 11-5....he's thrown for 3800yds 25TD's or so.....then every team lacking a solid QB would likely give up a 1st to have him..... but until then...... NOPE!!!!
Bill from NYC Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Right now at this very moment.... no... At seasons end, that may all change.... Trent has done a very good job so far this season....his potential to be great is there.....but no team RIGHT NOW would give up a first for him.... I'm probably going to be labeled a Trent hater for saying this....and I'm not....buttttttt Were 4 games in.....He has yet to have a complete game from start to finish ... and were going to get a 1st for him....cmon now....isnt that alil premature..... His ability to put it together in the 2nd half has been amazing....but Let him put together a complete game...and make it thru one NFL season as a starter... I really think when the season is finally over and were rolling into the playoffs at 11-5....he's thrown for 3800yds 25TD's or so.....then every team lacking a solid QB would likely give up a 1st to have him..... but until then...... NOPE!!!! Then who is worth a first? Jamarcus Russell, and his 10 million dollar salary? He was the first pick of an entire draft, and I am betting that the Raiders wish they had Trent at this point. Besides, about half of 1st round qbs are bust. As a Bills Fan, certainly you are well aware of this, no? As for a complete game, his record is 9-4. One more win and he will hit the "magic number." Next?
FreakPop Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Then who is worth a first? Jamarcus Russell, and his 10 million dollar salary? He was the first pick of an entire draft, and I am betting that the Raiders wish they had Trent at this point. Besides, about half of 1st round qbs are bust. As a Bills Fan, certainly you are well aware of this, no? As for a complete game, his record is 8-5. One more win and he will hit the "magic number." Next? There fixed it for ya!
julian Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 There fixed it for ya! yeah that 8-5 record looks much worse
Albany,n.y. Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 That's a well stated, and well constructed argument. But, if it is directed at me or my post, I don't understand why. I don't see where I guaranteed that JP would be a great NFL starting. I don't remember suggesting that it was highly likely, based on any stats, comparisons to other QBs top become a star in the NFL. I pointed out that nobody KNOWS, nor should claim, without reservation, that he can't be a starting (or for some, even functional) QB in the NFL. The odds are likely against it, but applying odds to any particular individual for isn't that useful, as they are rarely "average" and all things are never equal. So, you look at the past, and see what you can see, look at stats, look at athletic comparisons, etc. In the end, you decide if you think a guy is going to something more than the average, something less...whatever. So, in this case, seeing what I see in this little analysis, I think JP has a shot at being a starting QB in this league, again. I think that, in the right circumstances, he might become pretty decent QB in this league. Furthermore (as I think I showed earlier) with the perfect storm of favorable circumstances, it is entirely possible that he might, someday, end up a QB in the Super Bowl. Surely QB's with less talent have been there. Would I bet on any of those? Probably not. But I might bet that he will /become do at least one of those things as opposed to not playing in the NFL 3 years from now. Now, I understand you think less highly of JPs skills, and more negatively on some of his weaknesses, than I and, as you note, "wouldn't bet" on JP being the exception to your take on history. Fair enough. I buy that. But, you have done nothing to support the case that he CAN'T or definitely won't make it. In fact, I think you made my case, nicely. Thanks. I will bolster your case with this. The 11-13 guys I mentioned were outright busts. The team that let them go basically had to go back to the drawing board and start all over again after they failed. I believe that Trent Edwards is a rare talent that the coaches knew had to be put into the lineup as soon as they could. Therefore, the JP situation may indeed be different because none of these guys were replaced because the team found someone anyone near the talent of a Trent Edwards to replace each of them with. So in that case the JP situation is different than the cases I have cited. JP may indeed be a good starting NFL QB, I don't know, because in my opinion the Bills found greatness and replaced a question mark in JP with someone who will be an elite talent. That does give the JP situation a different angle than the busts I listed. On a side note, it was evident early the Bills knew they had something special in Edwards. Here are some quotes from the 9/9/2007 season preview edition of Pro Football Weekly before Trent ever took a snap in a regular season NFL game. page 4 "" According to daily observers at Bills camp, rookie Trent Edwards has clearly been the most impressive quarterback thus far. J.P. Losman undoubtedly remains the starter heading into Week One, but considering that he was drafted by the old coaching regime, coach Dick Jauron has no particular loyalty to him. Edwards-a Stanford product-was given a glowing endorsement by the late Bill Walsh prior to the draft and apparently everything Walsh highlighted about the youngster has come to light. Edwards quickly supplanted Craig Nall as No 2 on the depth chart and his numerous preseason repititions could carry over to the regular season if Losman struggles." page 6 ""Bills QB J.P. Losman had an impressive end to the '06 season, but third-round pick Trent Edwards was clearly the top quarterback through camp, which could spell trouble for Losman should he falter."
FreakPop Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 yeah that 8-5 record looks much worse Just like getting the FACTS straight!
Albany,n.y. Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Right now at this very moment.... no... At seasons end, that may all change.... Trent has done a very good job so far this season....his potential to be great is there.....but no team RIGHT NOW would give up a first for him.... I'm probably going to be labeled a Trent hater for saying this....and I'm not....buttttttt Were 4 games in.....He has yet to have a complete game from start to finish ... and were going to get a 1st for him....cmon now....isnt that alil premature..... His ability to put it together in the 2nd half has been amazing....but Let him put together a complete game...and make it thru one NFL season as a starter... I really think when the season is finally over and were rolling into the playoffs at 11-5....he's thrown for 3800yds 25TD's or so.....then every team lacking a solid QB would likely give up a 1st to have him..... but until then...... NOPE!!!! Well look at the past. Teams have given up #1s for a body of work a lot skimpier than Trent Edwards currently has. Do you remember back in 1998 there was this backup on Jacksonville who commanded a 1st and a 4th from a team that was scammed by one great game. Then the team, that shall remain nameless, gave the QB a 5 year $25 million contract. How about Matt Schaub in 2007 for a swap of 1sts (picks 8 & 10), a 2nd and I think a 2008 2nd. Then a big $ contract for Schaub with Houston. Also a 2005 1st, and 2004 2nd & 5th for the rights to draft JP Losman in the 1st round of the 2004 draft with no NFL experience. Face it, if a team offerred a 1st for Trent, the Bills would say no and laugh in their face. Anyone who could get Trent for a #1 would be accused of the biggest heist since Denver traded for John Elway.
billfan63 Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Well look at the past. Teams have given up #1s for a body of work a lot skimpier than Trent Edwards currently has. Do you remember back in 1998 there was this backup on Jacksonville who commanded a 1st and a 4th from a team that was scammed by one great game. Then the team, that shall remain nameless, gave the QB a 5 year $25 million contract. How about Matt Schaub in 2007 for a swap of 1sts (picks 8 & 10), a 2nd and I think a 2008 2nd. Then a big $ contract for Schaub with Houston. Also a 2005 1st, and 2004 2nd & 5th for the rights to draft JP Losman in the 1st round of the 2004 draft with no NFL experience. Face it, if a team offerred a 1st for Trent, the Bills would say no and laugh in their face. Anyone who could get Trent for a #1 would be accused of the biggest heist since Denver traded for John Elway. I think your in love
Albany,n.y. Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 I think your in love More like "Visions of Super Bowls dance in my head"
CFLstyle Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 I still don't understand why everyone is so eager to have Gibran Hamdan backup Trent Edwards next year. He's done nothing to prove that he's a good backup. We need someone reliable!
The_Philster Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 I am a JP supporter. Have been since day one. I just love the kid and was really excited for last season when he was our starter from the getgo. It really hit home when that issue of the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle came out with him standing in front of the city of Buffalo talking about how much he wants to give back to the great city. Honestly, the kid just seemed like a great, caring guy who wanted nothing more than to be a successful qb for the Bills. With that being said, I know truly believe that Trent is our guy. I don't say it begrudgingly because I never disliked Trent. I merely didn't like that he wasn't JP. But now, I just can't deny any longer that, for what the Bills try to do on offense, there is no better QB for us than Trent. My question to all the other JP supporters, do you know not feel the same way? If so, I'd be curious to hear your reasoning. Also, I must say that I am torn on JP right now. While I love him being a Bill, I also want him to have his chance to play. I almost wanted to see him get traded to the Vikings cause I think his style of play would fit in great there. I don't want to see him leave, but I want to see what he has in the tank. Go Bills I agree completely. For me, the only thing I had against Trent was the fact that he stared down his receivers to a ridiculous level...a problem he seems to have rectified. I would love to have him stick around and be Trent's backup for the next decade or so but I think JP deserves to be a starter somewhere, too. If he can land somewhere where he gets a legitimate shot as the starter with a coordinator that isn't an idiot, more power to him. Personally, I think JP would be excelling under Schonert but you don't fix what ain't broke and I'm sold on Trent...something I wasn't ready to say a few weeks ago.
Dan Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 I still don't understand why everyone is so eager to have Gibran Hamdan backup Trent Edwards next year. He's done nothing to prove that he's a good backup. We need someone reliable! Bask in the Chroise and you too shall see the boundless glory of our QB's salvation.
Bill from NYC Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Just like getting the FACTS straight! What was his record in games that he started? Please, give us some facts.
Stenbar Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Just like getting the FACTS straight! Heres the only fact that matters to me when a topic involving JP and Trent is started anymore!!!! And thank God.. http://www.buffalobills.com/depth_chart/index.html
The_Philster Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 What was his record in games that he started? Please, give us some facts. Here's a fact. Football is the ultimate team sport and everytime a QB is given sole credit for a win or a loss, it's insulting to his teammates
Stenbar Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 Here's a fact. Football is the ultimate team sport and everytime a QB is given sole credit for a win or a loss, it's insulting to his teammates How do you know this??? I dont think they really care who gets credit..I think they just want to win..I myself could care less who gets credit for a win..But I would definately without question rather have a qb who has a higher winning percentage than one who has a losing winning percantage..If that is what this argument is about..If its about who is the better qb then that answer isnt even close..
The_Philster Posted October 4, 2008 Posted October 4, 2008 How do you know this??? I dont think they really care who gets credit..I think they just want to win..I myself could care less who gets credit for a win..But I would definately without question rather have a qb who has a higher winning percentage than one who has a losing winning percantage..If that is what this argument is about..If its about who is the better qb then that answer isnt even close.. As someone who's competed in team sports myself, I know I'd feel insulted if someone said that, for example, Johnny won the game when I did a lot to contribute to the win as well. Besides, if you surround Joe Montana with a high school team and match them up with Ryan Leaf and a top-level NFL team, do you really think that the high school team would win? Ask any football player and they'll back me up when I say that football is the ultimate team sport. Hell, Marcellus Wiley said those exact words on NFL Live just the other day. There is no official win-loss record for any position in football nor should there be. Hell, the only team sport where a single player has a win-loss record is the pitcher in baseball and don't tell me that A-Rod, for example, doesn't do a lot to help win games as well. Unless the pitcher throws 27 strike-outs in a row, he had a lot of help to win that game.
Recommended Posts